793 réponses à ce sujet

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Demonologist wrote...

Ya'll need to quit raging and discuss this like smart folks. You're doing the latter, but the former you could do without.

His comments could be misconstrued as inappropriate, he apologized, no reason to really be going on and on about it. 'par for the course with Bioware lately' isn't exactly, er... Y'know. Useful? Constructive? And I hate to be 'that guy' but where the hell else have they been inappropriate? While I guess you could call this an exception(Not that I -really- believe that.) but I'd call Bioware more honest than anybody else on these subjects, and the willingness to discuss the subject is nice. It's not dickishness, its honesty.


The Tony Show sums up my feelings as well. Honestly, get over it.

Aparently you missed the two weeks of non information on how a 360 title update can affect a pc release but thats a completely different topic in itself. Basically I think miscontrued or not it was somewhat of an unprofessional way to comment about it. Thats the jist of it. It could have been handled better is basically I think what anyone is saying in the first place.

[Zoe Dedweth]

Go go go Gadget Woo! Nice post Stanley. Thanks for taking the time to reply to the ****storm.

[Vlainstrike]

pedal2metal wrote...
If you're so "worldly-wise", then why would you infer that they were having sex with their clothes on & that this was the "artistic choice" being represented by the scene?  Is it because that was the only choice your brilliant mind could conceive of?  You should actually think a little bit more before posting & consider that maybe there's more than just 1 interpretation to the absence of your precious sex scene besides genophobia on the part of Bioware or anyone else.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

First off, there's more than one sex scene in ME2 (but if you wanna believe that Jack was just supposed to be dry humping while she bobbed up and down on top of shepard I guess that's your prerogative) . Second, this discussion has moved often to compare differences  not only between scenes from ME1 & ME2, but also bioware's recent DA:O, which was released shortly before ME2. 

And finally, if this will appease you at all, my second paragraph in that post was semi-facetious as it was intended as a reductio ad absurdum style argument (although there were actually some thought provoking responses to it until you and Khavos decided to derail the whole thing), when the real issue I've been addressing in my previous posts has been the obvious changes in how sex was handled from ME1 to ME2, and the motivations behind those decisions.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 09 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[The Demonologist]

Yes, well. That was awhile ago. Are you still feeling any particular emotions on the subject? Enough to justify continued anger and contempt?



I don't really think even the most sensitive amongst us should.



Also, not referring to you, 'cause you're posting rationably. I'm just talking about those who just can't seem to get over the issue.



As to the first part of your post... I... don't understand? Two weeks of non information on how a 360 title update can affect a PC release? What's that got to do with this? Clarification, por favor.

[The Demonologist]

Vlainstrike wrote...

pedal2metal wrote...
If you're so "worldly-wise", then why would you infer that they were having sex with their clothes on & that this was the "artistic choice" being represented by the scene?  Is it because that was the only choice your brilliant mind could conceive of?  You should actually think a little bit more before posting & consider that maybe there's more than just 1 interpretation to the absence of your precious sex scene besides genophobia on the part of Bioware or anyone else.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

First off, there's more than one sex scene in ME2 (but if you wanna believe that Jack was just supposed to be dry humping while she bobbed up and down on top of shepard I guess that's your prerogative) . Second, this discussion has moved often to compare differences  not only between scenes from ME1 & ME2, but also bioware's recent DA:O, which was released shortly before ME2. 

And finally, if this will appease you at all, my second paragraph in that post was semi-facetious as it was intended as a reductio ad absurdum style argument (although there were some actually some thought provoking responses to it until you and Khavos decided to derail the whole thing), when the real issue I've been addressing in my previous posts has been the obvious changes in how sex was handled from ME1 to ME2, and the motivations behind those decisions.

Not to be rude again, but isn't there another thread dedicated to that?

[Khavos]

The Demonologist wrote...

Not to be rude again, but isn't there another thread dedicated to that?

Oh man.

Get ready for the response to that, bro. 

[Vlainstrike]

The Demonologist wrote...
Not to be rude again, but isn't there another thread dedicated to that?

As I mentioned before, the OP opens up a lot of room for topic variation.

[the_one_54321]

Stanly Woo is hilarious. End of story.

[Macq Daddy]

I'm sure the comment has already been made at some point in this long thread, but I'd suspect that Bioware's new corporate superiors may well have had a wee bit to do with the sanitizing of both Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2's love scenes. Near as I can tell, EA wants to be thought of as a "family friendly" company (yes, even while putting out tons of "Rated M for Money" games) and having members of one of their subsidiaries on the news (again) explaining that their game is not a sex simulator probably doesn't fit into that plan.

Of course, another factor to consider is the ESRB. With the F-bombs and other cursing present (which was nonexistent in the original that I can recall), perhaps the inclusion of even partial nudity would have pushed the game into "AO" territory. Likewise with the buckets of gore in Dragon Age.

Personally, I'd prefer that if they're going to go with the "mostly clothed love scenes" for ME3 (for whatever reason), I would prefer they simply fade-to-black after the first kiss (or whatever) and let that be that. In other words more along the lines of the Tali scene than Miranda or Jack's. The whole "Sex with all our clothes on" just comes across as very silly looking, and for me, at least, pulls me right out of the game.

Modifié par Macq Daddy, 09 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[Fexelea]

Khavos wrote...

Fexelea wrote...

Words by themselves have meanings, words in context have interpretations. Language is not an exact science, as evidenced by the back-n-forth between people who agree, when trying to clarify what was expressed. Your interpretation of what Stanley wrote is as valid as mine or as anyone's. Your assessment that the apology is in fact a non-apology is not a fact. 

Nor is your interpretation that it's not a non-apology a fact, yet you presented it as one.  When are you going to learn that it cuts both ways? 

Generalizing again? We have been through this. My point is that the topic is about users who felt the expression was innapropriate. Stanley addressed that. That's all there is to it. The thread diverging into sub-themes is not relvant to my point.

What's remarkable is that I've said the exact same thing four or five times in this thread, and you've seen fit to continue making the argument that it was, in fact, inappropriate - all while claiming that you don't care if it was.  Is it two people typing separate parts of your posts or something?

Your further assessments that I am "sticking around" and "trying desperately" to do anything are both innacurate and irrelevant.

Is this an example of language being inaccurate in context?  I believe you meant to say "spot on" and "amusing for the spectators."

It is a fact that Stanley attempted to clarify and apologized. The sincerity of the apology, which is a subject that *you* brought up, is for him to know. Since I have made no claims regarding if it is or not a "real" apology, I don't need to learn that anything cuts both ways, but +0.5 for trying to you.

You stated that this thread is about users being upset that the devs can ignore feedback. I disagreed with that, and I have explained why. Read my first post for details. You then asked why would telling the truth be condescending. I highlighted it was the manner which was being questioned and you once more asked why anyone would take his remarks as condescending. I thought you were genuine in your interest, so I explained why I thought it was an unprofessional post, based on intellectually-honest arguments. By introducing fallacious arguments, one could be seen as condescending the intelligence of the audience. You then contended the validity of people's feelings, which is not your place to do. I went to sleep.
Today, you once more stated this thread is about people being angry over the truth. I disagreed. Then *you* said that I thought the thread was about my hurt feelings. This is untrue, and you can find the following discussion in page 21

From looking at the above, my point was: the thread is about the manner by which Stanley made his statement. Said manner can be perceived as unprofessional and condescending as it relied on fallacious logic. I have no personal emotion towards the subject, as I was not offended by it. I do consider that any individual who is representing a corporation should be more professional when posting. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Your attempts at jesting my last sentence fail to bring anything forth to your argument.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

The Demonologist wrote...

Yes, well. That was awhile ago. Are you still feeling any particular emotions on the subject? Enough to justify continued anger and contempt?

I don't really think even the most sensitive amongst us should.

Also, not referring to you, 'cause you're posting rationably. I'm just talking about those who just can't seem to get over the issue.

As to the first part of your post... I... don't understand? Two weeks of non information on how a 360 title update can affect a PC release? What's that got to do with this? Clarification, por favor.

Well they basically sat on the PC release so that MS could make sure that PC users wouldn't get it first. Which contradicts the original statement that the console skus of DA:O would not affect the PC sku. Again though thats not what this topic is about.

On topic I can deal with how the LI scenes are portrayed in ME2, is it a little disappointing they weren't handled as graceful and tastefully as ME1? Sure its a tad disappointing. Though I also didn't think those that are asking for some clarification about it was really all that out of line. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, which I think alot of people like to dismiss and just label it as whining, which isn't really fair imo.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Woo lumped everyone together as being imature and wanting mindless nudity when in all honesty its not actually the case at all, backpeddled, then issued a weak apology for it. Which is the entire reason of this very topic. Why you're arguing semantics and the "intentions" of an apology is beyond me in the first place.

Did Mr. Woo hurt your feelings?  Poor baby, let me get you some tissues and the worlds smallest violin.

Are you trying to hurt her feelings now by belittling her? Why is that? Are throwing with filth now? That says more about you than CoS Sarah Jinstar.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[LaserKaizoku]

I agree with the OP.



In addition, regardless of whether or not you feel that the toned down sex scenes themselves are acceptable, unacceptable, or if you are indifferent, I don't see how anyone could claim that there is not a problem with the culmination of the the romance subplots. It felt oddly unfinished to me that after sex there was not even a little dialogue discussing what just happened or how they now feel about each other. Leaving the actual sex to the imagination may be acceptable, but leaving out how it has affected the characters is not.



Now if this omission itself wasn't bad enough, after the sex scene when you go and talk to the character on the normandy your love interest has the same dialogue they had before the sex scene (at least this is the case with Jack, I assume the others are similar). Apparently, I can invite Jack up to my cabin to silently sit on my knee or cuddle, but down in engineering she is still thinking about our relationship and needs time. This glaring inconsistency ruins the immersion. In a game that relies so heavily on the narrative, which is generally exemplary throughout, it doesn't make much sense that such a major event for Shepard and the LI would not be addressed in any way.

[The Tony Show]

Macq Daddy wrote...

Personally, I'd prefer that if they're going to go with the "mostly clothed love scenes" for ME3 (for whatever reason), I would prefer they simply fade-to-black after the first kiss (or whatever) and let that be that. In other words more along the lines of the Tali scene than Miranda or Jack's. The whole "Sex with all our clothes on" just comes across as very silly looking, and for me, at least, pulls me right out of the game.

Read this.  It will blow your mind.

http://dictionary.re...browse/foreplay

Modifié par The Tony Show, 09 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[Kwonnern]

It is a combination of what happened at the FOX-debacle (fear of losing customers due to bad press) and EA wanting to "sanitize" the content, making it more family friendly.

Those with the gold, make the rules.

The condescending Woo-statement you people focus on is all Woo though, completely personal (what Stanley Woo thinks about some people) and has nothing to do with the company.

And the "Crawling_Chaos"-fellow is really clutching at straws now, trying to belittle and insult her, instead of discussing things in a civil manner.

Modifié par Kwonnern, 09 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[Khavos]

Fexelea wrote...

From looking at the above, my point was: the thread is about the manner by which Stanley made his statement. Said manner can be perceived as unprofessional and condescending as it relied on fallacious logic. I have no personal emotion towards the subject, as I was not offended by it. I do consider that any individual who is representing a corporation should be more professional when posting. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You've made the point that you have no personal emotion towards the subject ad nauseum.  I get it.  I don't believe it, but I am aware of what you're saying.  He seems to have completely fulfilled your criteria for "Thread Over!" by apologizing if people got their panties in a twist over what he said, so I'm not entirely sure why you're still here arguing.

If you believe this thread is only about the manner in which Stanley made his statement, and that there are not plenty of people arguing about the truth of his statement, I really don't know what to tell you save that you need to go back and actually read posts beyond your own.

[Khavos]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Well they basically sat on the PC release so that MS could make sure that PC users wouldn't get it first. Which contradicts the original statement that the console skus of DA:O would not affect the PC sku. Again though thats not what this topic is about.

On topic I can deal with how the LI scenes are portrayed in ME2, is it a little disappointing they weren't handled as graceful and tastefully as ME1? Sure its a tad disappointing. Though I also didn't think those that are asking for some clarification about it was really all that out of line. There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, which I think alot of people like to dismiss and just label it as whining, which isn't really fair imo.

I personally find nothing at all tasteful about the depiction of the commanding officer of a combat unit seducing enlisted personnel under his direct command.  Whether or not there's ass in it is irrelevant.  But that's me.

People have asked for and received clarification.  People have also been told that the issue's not going to be clarified further. 

[Kwonnern]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Kwonnern wrote...
And the "Crawling_Chaos"-fellow is really clutching at straws now, trying to belittle and insult her, instead of discussing things in a civil manner.

I asked her a question and she answered legitimately, I haven't bothered her since.

That's good son, but keep that in mind in the future while discussing with others, there is no need for belittling or resorting to insults/namecalling someone if you want to be taken seriously.

As you were.

[Khavos]

LaserKaizoku wrote...

I agree with the OP.

In addition, regardless of whether or not you feel that the toned down sex scenes themselves are acceptable, unacceptable, or if you are indifferent, I don't see how anyone could claim that there is not a problem with the culmination of the the romance subplots. It felt oddly unfinished to me that after sex there was not even a little dialogue discussing what just happened or how they now feel about each other. Leaving the actual sex to the imagination may be acceptable, but leaving out how it has affected the characters is not.

Now if this omission itself wasn't bad enough, after the sex scene when you go and talk to the character on the normandy your love interest has the same dialogue they had before the sex scene (at least this is the case with Jack, I assume the others are similar). Apparently, I can invite Jack up to my cabin to silently sit on my knee or cuddle, but down in engineering she is still thinking about our relationship and needs time. This glaring inconsistency ruins the immersion. In a game that relies so heavily on the narrative, which is generally exemplary throughout, it doesn't make much sense that such a major event for Shepard and the LI would not be addressed in any way.

It's almost like they included it just because they knew fans would **** about it if they didn't, isn't it?  If you really want to blow your mind, you could almost get to the point where you start thinking that maybe Bioware had Shep regarding banging various chicks/guys as an afterthought compared to saving the universe without the support of the Alliance or the Council. 

[Khavos]

Kwonnern wrote...

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Kwonnern wrote...
And the "Crawling_Chaos"-fellow is really clutching at straws now, trying to belittle and insult her, instead of discussing things in a civil manner.

I asked her a question and she answered legitimately, I haven't bothered her since.

That's good son, but keep that in mind in the future while discussing with others, there is no need for belittling or resorting to insults/namecalling someone if you want to be taken seriously.

As you were.

Ah, the irony.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Woo lumped everyone together as being imature and wanting mindless nudity when in all honesty its not actually the case at all, backpeddled, then issued a weak apology for it. Which is the entire reason of this very topic. Why you're arguing semantics and the "intentions" of an apology is beyond me in the first place.

Did Mr. Woo hurt your feelings?  Poor baby, let me get you some tissues and the worlds smallest violin.

Are you trying to hurt her feelings now by belittling her? Why is that? Are throwing with filth now? That says more about you than CoS Sarah Jinstar.

I'm a horrible jerk with no remorse and nothing to lose, plus I'm on the internet, watch out world!

I figured as much. Your behavior does not fit a topic in which maturity is key.

[darkshadow136]

I agree they really went PG in the love scenes from ME1- ME2. After seeing the romance scenes for the different characters I wondered why the game got the mature rating. Well I guess the language would have done that. But if you minues the language out it would just be a teen rated game. I have seen more skin in fighting games in that past like DOA. They did choke and drop the ball on the romance in this game compared to ME1.