793 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Bioware stepped up to the plate in ME1 and delivered something rare in games, a quality and tasteful love scene fleshed out by a romance plot... a mature take on sex and love in video games instead of just T&A and guns and explosions with the women throwing themselves blindly at your character.

Many people looked forward to seeing this trend continue into the sequel, but it seems to have taken a step back into titillation territory a bit (Kelly's "stripper dance" among others). They got some of the romances right but seemed to miss what made the original stand out.

But don't let that stop some of you ranting about "kids wanting ****** in their game".

Some much truth in this post.

Also my group in siggy (Nothing wrong with a Little Skin) is for those who support the ME1 type lovescenes with tasteful nudity to make a return in ME3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 février 2010 - 09:26 .

[RJB1978]

Bioware didn't "step up to the plate" and deliver with the love scene in ME1. They made a decision about what to include in the cutscene, and the fallout from some dumb broad from FOX news shooting her mouth off made them video game folk heroes. I'm sure that when they made the cutscene, there was a discussion about what was tasteful and appropriate, and what their mature audience could handle, and they defended their decision when they were attacked by someone obviously ignorant to the facts.



This does not set a precedent for any other games, however. Just because they added a butt and partial boob shot in one of their games does not mean that they are betraying their values and backpedaling under scrutiny and criticism. They're simply making another choice about what to put in their game. If, for whatever reason, that's not to your liking, so be it. But to infer that they're somehow insulting their fanbase or compromising their artistic integrity is simply speculation.



We got a romance in ME1. We got to have sex with a character in ME1. We got a romance in ME2. We got to have sex with a character in ME2. What's shown or not shown isn't important, for a whole host of reasons. If your sense of immersion is ruined because of the quality and taste of a love scene, then go make your own game, and add all the tasteful, high-quality lovin' you want.

[RighteousRage]

The Garrus scene was just about the worst thing ever, guys

[Kalfear]

RJB1978 wrote...

Bioware didn't "step up to the plate" and deliver with the love scene in ME1. They made a decision about what to include in the cutscene, and the fallout from some dumb broad from FOX news shooting her mouth off made them video game folk heroes. I'm sure that when they made the cutscene, there was a discussion about what was tasteful and appropriate, and what their mature audience could handle, and they defended their decision when they were attacked by someone obviously ignorant to the facts.

This does not set a precedent for any other games, however. Just because they added a butt and partial boob shot in one of their games does not mean that they are betraying their values and backpedaling under scrutiny and criticism. They're simply making another choice about what to put in their game. If, for whatever reason, that's not to your liking, so be it. But to infer that they're somehow insulting their fanbase or compromising their artistic integrity is simply speculation.

We got a romance in ME1. We got to have sex with a character in ME1. We got a romance in ME2. We got to have sex with a character in ME2. What's shown or not shown isn't important, for a whole host of reasons. If your sense of immersion is ruined because of the quality and taste of a love scene, then go make your own game, and add all the tasteful, high-quality lovin' you want.

Bolded the part that basically annopunces to world, "I habe nothing meaningful to say so here is my ultimadium to anyone with a different opinion then me"

Tell me, what game have YOU MADE to support your wishy washy non stance on the topic?
Or is it just people that dont agree with you that are suppose to make their own video games?

[aeetos21]

Point blank, I think mature games should be treated as mature games. Does that mean they HAVE to have nudity or sexul content? Of course not, but if it fits the storyline and reflects the flavor of the game being produced then yes - definitely. Mature may mean adult content but it also means "taking the gloves off" and really letting you push the envelope of your imagination. You don't have to worry about things like:

"Okay I know Mario is being burned alive by Bowser right now and he should probably be screaming but what can he say? Is crap too much? Certainly not sh*t or f*ck or put me out damnit!"

I saw some of the DAO vids and I've seen all the ME and ME2 romance vids and again the problem isn't lack of nudity or sex but rather how you presented it. Normally I have nothing but praise for Bioware but looking back at what you accomplished in the ME1 love scenes (the art) I know that BW is capable of presenting something much more beautiful to the audience and THAT is what I'm hoping Bioware gets most from this one player's comment. ME3 is still a long way off and RIGHT NOW is the time to address any of our concerns. Another three months? Might be too late.

Modifié par aeetos21, 24 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[Massadonious1]

Kalfear wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

While you're at it, you should petition every movie studio to use nudity in their R rated movies, regardless of it's intended content. People who simply use the rating to amplify the violence and/or language in their movies are obviously doing it wrong if they don't use boobies!

Me thinks Mass is just upset hes to young to get into the normal R rated movies with nude breasts (11-13 year olds say boobies).

Dont worry Mass, only just under a decade to go for you!

Till then, tell your parents to do their jobs already and stop buying M rated games your to young for.

Awww, how cute. It's trying to skirt the point and insult me by implying something about my choice of words.

[aeetos21]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Kalfear wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

While you're at it, you should petition every movie studio to use nudity in their R rated movies, regardless of it's intended content. People who simply use the rating to amplify the violence and/or language in their movies are obviously doing it wrong if they don't use boobies!

Me thinks Mass is just upset hes to young to get into the normal R rated movies with nude breasts (11-13 year olds say boobies).

Dont worry Mass, only just under a decade to go for you!

Till then, tell your parents to do their jobs already and stop buying M rated games your to young for.

Awww, how cute. It's trying to skirt the point and insult me by implying something about my choice of words.

If you can't act mature on these forums or be the bigger person and walk away, leave - that simple.

[FF5_Conan]

It's funny how the world works nowadays... In the States the people get all fired up about showing some brief digital nipples but don't care if you can hack and chop at digital people with tons of digital blood. In europe they really dont care that much about showing complete nude/sex scenes in games, but when some degenerated a-hole does a massakre in a school, one of the first things they point at is how that guy had Counterstrike or any other shooter on his PC installed....



Bioware has to sell as many games as they can. They put a lot of efford, time and money in these productions. They should be rated by the core things that make a game good. Story, Gameplay and Looks. And this they do very well. If selling more games means they have to tone down some stuff, its sad but ok. Nobody wants their game to be remembered by a sex-discussion (like Hot Coffee), but for the things that matter: Groundbreaking storytelling and presentation.



On a personal note: I prefer to get a tasteful, erotic reward with a proper story when investing time and efford in building up a relationship inside a game with a npc. All digital, of course. I know it's all fake, but its good for my ego

[RJB1978]

Kalfear wrote...
Tell me, what game have YOU MADE to support your wishy washy non stance on the topic?
Or is it just people that dont agree with you that are suppose to make their own video games?

I don't have to make a game.  That's my point.  As a consumer, I'm satisfied with what Bioware has done for ME1 and ME2.  I'm not calling the devs out for "compromising their artistic integrity," or "kowtowing to The Man," or "insulting their players' intelligence and maturity."  

Look at the title of the thread:  Nudity Criticisms--Bioware Condescends.  This Means You, Mr. Woo

I've made my stance clear.  Some people are getting their panties in a bunch about Bioware's decision to add a bra to a 'toon, instead of going for well concealed full nudity, and I'm saying it's a non-issue.  It neither adds nor detracts from the main story nor the romance, because, in your mind, you know what's happening when Shepard and whomever start making out.  

Not once did I say that people weren't entitled to their opinion.  In fact, I've clearly stated that if someone doesn't like the way the love scenes, or any particular scene, was done in ME, then so be it.  But to get so worked up over one as to necessitate coming on a message board and calling out the devs isn't going to do anything.  A small fraction of disgruntled gamers demanding side boob isn't enough to force them to put it in a game.  My suggestion to "make your own game," was only a suggestion that, if they really desire to have a tastefully shot, high-quality depiction of video game love making, then they would probably be better off making one themselves.  Coming on here and complaining about it is like wishing in one hand and crapping in the other.  Which one is going to pile up first?

[Auts]

RighteousRage wrote...

The Garrus scene was just about the worst thing ever, guys

I don't get it why Garrus scene was bad. Care to elaborate?

[Kaedian66]

HK47DL wrote...

It's quite pathetic to fight over lack of pixelated boobs.

And i don't see a reason to respond to it, especially not with all the effort you did with personal answers to all sorts of dudes but hell, they better appreciate your efforts.

You atleast seem to care about your image, and the image of BW.


Creds to you.

^^ This.

[Lusitanum]

RJB1978 wrote...

I don't have to make a game.  That's my point.  As a consumer, I'm satisfied with what Bioware has done for ME1 and ME2.  I'm not calling the devs out for "compromising their artistic integrity," or "kowtowing to The Man," or "insulting their players' intelligence and maturity." 

Look at the title of the thread:  Nudity Criticisms--Bioware Condescends.  This Means You, Mr. Woo

Look at the actual OP: it's not about the nudity, it's the fact that Woo decided to judge the maturity of gamers on his statement.

RJB1978 wrote...

I've made my stance clear.  Some people are getting their panties in a bunch about Bioware's decision to add a bra to a 'toon, instead of going for well concealed full nudity, and I'm saying it's a non-issue.  It neither adds nor detracts from the main story nor the romance, because, in your mind, you know what's happening when Shepard and whomever start making out. 

It's kind of hard to picture anything in your mind when the game is showing you everything!

I don't have any problem with implied sexuality. My favorite romance scene in the whole game is Tali's, where all you see is her stumbling for words while Shepard tries to reassure her and it all ends with a nice, sweet kiss as they both lay down. If you give me that instead of ME1's sex scene, I'm fine with that because they both add the same closure to Shepard's relationship with his love interesst.

On the other hand, you have things like Miranda's and Jack's "sex scenes" where you just lean back with your mouth open asking yourself "what the hell are they doing? Why are these two adults rubbing each other like that? Is Shepard that much a hunk of a man that he's able to drive a woman into extasy just making them dry-hump his crotch?"

And that's the main problem: it's not about the nudity, it's about the love scene itself that just looks fake. You don't need to show skin to make a love scene look good, but if you give me clothed dry-humping then that just looks silly.

RJB1978 wrote...

Not once did I say that people weren't entitled to their opinion.  In fact, I've clearly stated that if someone doesn't like the way the love scenes, or any particular scene, was done in ME, then so be it.  But to get so worked up over one as to necessitate coming on a message board and calling out the devs isn't going to do anything.  A small fraction of disgruntled gamers demanding side boob isn't enough to force them to put it in a game.  My suggestion to "make your own game," was only a suggestion that, if they really desire to have a tastefully shot, high-quality depiction of video game love making, then they would probably be better off making one themselves.  Coming on here and complaining about it is like wishing in one hand and crapping in the other.  Which one is going to pile up first?

Right, because if you want videogaming to be taken seriously by finally taking a few steps forward and deal with sex in a natural way, then you should dedicate your life to studying how to build a gaming studio, spend years making games until you make a name for yourself and then you can put a tasteful sex scene in it to get your goddamend point across on an Internet forum.

Have you even realized how idiotic that sounds?

I mean, do you also need to release your own musical album in order to have an opinion on singers you don't like? Do you need to become an accomplished director to criticize a movie that sucked? Or better yet, do you have to run your own country before you can have a political opinion?

I mean, seriously... <_<

Auts wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

The
Garrus scene was just about the worst thing ever, guys

I
don't get it why Garrus scene was bad. Care to elaborate?

Because
people tend to forget that it's kind of hard to kiss someone who has no
freaking lips! Also, those razor sharp teeths might get in the
way, too.

[RJB1978]

Lusitanum wrote...

Look at the actual OP: it's not about the nudity, it's the fact that Woo decided to judge the maturity of gamers on his statement.

I'm going to disagree with you on this point.  It IS about the nudity, and if the same level of nudity had been included in ME2, then this argument would not be taking place.

Aquilas wrote...

Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.  Does BioWare have the right to choose not to include nudity or partial nudity in a game?  Of course it does.  But it shouldn’t lash out at fans who remark on an obvious inconsistency from ME1 to ME2.  I won’t take the bait in responding to insults regarding my maturity or lack thereof.  Because in my judgment, BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.
 
Putting personal attacks on fan maturity aside, it is very reasonable to conclude BioWare chose not to include any partial nudity in ME2 because it’s reacting to criticism by the "morality police.”  Why would BioWare do that?  To increase its customer base, hence profitability.  For BioWare to claim such omissions are purely an artistic choice is disingenuous at best.

The OP posits that the real reason that ME2 did not contain a nude scene on the level of ME1 is because they were pressured by outside influences, or were worried about their profit margin.  Stanley Woo simply stated that the decision to do the sex scenes the way they were done was their choice to make, and had nothing to do with some vast right wing conspiracy.  I did not feel judged, insulted, or patronized, as some people obviously did.  I took it to mean that Bioware trusts the intelligence and maturity of their fans to handle the inclusion or exclusion of adult content in their games, and that decisions regarding what they show are theirs alone and are not influenced by outside sources.  Some people feel differently, and they're entitled to their opinion, but accusing the developers of compromising themselves or selling out is simply wild speculation and has no basis in fact.

Lusitanum wrote...

It's kind of hard to picture anything in your mind when the game is showing you everything!

I don't have any problem with implied sexuality. My favorite romance scene in the whole game is Tali's, where all you see is her stumbling for words while Shepard tries to reassure her and it all ends with a nice, sweet kiss as they both lay down. If you give me that instead of ME1's sex scene, I'm fine with that because they both add the same closure to Shepard's relationship with his love interesst.

On the other hand, you have things like Miranda's and Jack's "sex scenes" where you just lean back with your mouth open asking yourself "what the hell are they doing? Why are these two adults rubbing each other like that? Is Shepard that much a hunk of a man that he's able to drive a woman into extasy just making them dry-hump his crotch?"

And that's the main problem: it's not about the nudity, it's about the love scene itself that just looks fake. You don't need to show skin to make a love scene look good, but if you give me clothed dry-humping then that just looks silly.

Well, I will agree that the payoff of the Talimance is the best.  Where, however, in any of the sex scenes is the game explicit that anyone has sex?  Is there anything more than making out?  Does anyone clearly make it past second base?  I mean, if we really wanted to be intentionally naive, we could assume that all they did was play doctor for a couple of minutes, and then got on with their day.  You must assume they had sex, so yes, you're forced to fill in the blanks in your head.  The game does not show you everything.

And it's entirely possible that the clothes-on making out is foreplay.  What looks silly to you is quite possibly the beginning of the sexual encounter.  Just because there's no penetration, and no skin to skin contact, does not mean that there is no stimulation.  Prolonging the removal of clothes is a well known and widely used method of increasing arousal by anticipation through willful denial.  However, this is mostly meta-thinking, and it may just be that it takes a good long time to extricate a woman as well proportioned as Miranda from a black and white PVC catsuit, and they can only devote so much time per sexual encounter.

Lusitanum wrote...

Right, because if you want videogaming to be taken seriously by finally taking a few steps forward and deal with sex in a natural way, then you should dedicate your life to studying how to build a gaming studio, spend years making games until you make a name for yourself and then you can put a tasteful sex scene in it to get your goddamend point across on an Internet forum.

Have you even realized how idiotic that sounds?

I mean, do you also need to release your own musical album in order to have an opinion on singers you don't like? Do you need to become an accomplished director to criticize a movie that sucked? Or better yet, do you have to run your own country before you can have a political opinion?

I mean, seriously... <_<

Well, now you're misinterpreting what I meant, and taking it way further than it was intended.  As I stated before, at no time did I say that people weren't entitled to their opinion.  I'm saying that this particular gripe is not worth the battle.  The presence or absence of side boob does not affect gameplay mechanics or plot progression.  I, personally, don't need a cutscene at all.  I came up romancing Viconia and Annah O The Shadows, and those are still my favorite romances from any video game.  ME2 sold like hot cakes, and the vast majority of consumers are pretty pleased with the product.  In this case, there is a small, but seemingly very vocal minority that is put out by the lack of partial nudity during the love scenes, and further incensed by Bioware's reaction to their complaints. Not only am I arguing that this discrepancy does not warrant such a vociferous response, I'm saying it's pointless. I'm saying that Bioware is comfortable with this decision, isn't going to patch the game to give anybody some more skin, and probably isn't terribly concerned with the reception to however they choose to depict romantic encounters in the next installment of Mass Effect, Dragon Age, or any other title, for that matter.  I'm saying that if the skin content of the game matters so much to you, then, by all means, build your own studio, because it will produce the desired result a lot quicker than all this griping.

If Bioware came out and asked, "How Should We Do The Sex Cutscenes For...?" then it'd be a whole 'nother ball of wax.

[Kalfear]

slimgrin wrote...

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Bioware stepped up to the plate in ME1 and delivered something rare in games, a quality and tasteful love scene fleshed out by a romance plot... a mature take on sex and love in video games instead of just T&A and guns and explosions with the women throwing themselves blindly at your character.

Many people looked forward to seeing this trend continue into the sequel, but it seems to have taken a step back into titillation territory a bit (Kelly's "stripper dance" among others). They got some of the romances right but seemed to miss what made the original stand out.

But don't let that stop some of you ranting about "kids wanting ****** in their game".

Spot on. I'm suprised by the puratinism on this post.

Well said Dest.

However I gotta say the kids (to me anyways) are the ones that cant understand this not about porn!
They seem so single minded and obsessed with porn they cant get beyond that to what the thread is really about.

but you nailed what we, the mature gamers, were asking for. I dont need nudity for the immersion, it just remains the easist way to achieve the goal is all.
Look at Heavy Rain, that sex scene is almost perfect and ranks right up there with ME1 love scene!
Thats what I want in MATURE games

[Prophet of Rage]

Destructo-Bot wrote...

Bioware stepped up to the plate in ME1 and delivered something rare in games, a quality and tasteful love scene fleshed out by a romance plot... a mature take on sex and love in video games instead of just T&A and guns and explosions with the women throwing themselves blindly at your character.

Many people looked forward to seeing this trend continue into the sequel, but it seems to have taken a step back into titillation territory a bit (Kelly's "stripper dance" among others). They got some of the romances right but seemed to miss what made the original stand out.

But don't let that stop some of you ranting about "kids wanting ****** in their game".

Win!

[petipas1414]

This may be creepy or whatever... but for the most part I find the romance scenes very tasteful.



Not saying that some aren't better than others, though. For example: Jacks' REAL romance scene is pretty moving, and might be my favorite series-wide (next to Liara).



But some scenes feel forced... like Jacobs... and the Kelly dancing thing might not be a 'romance romance' per se, but it's rather shallow, and it's in bad taste... just saying.

[Ed B]

If the game features romance plots and is rated M why not show more tasteful nudity? The designers have said they want to be more cinematic. What romantic movie today doesn't show some nudity? It seems like it would make the romance scenes more real.

[SimonTheFrog]

I remember saying that already at some other place, but its a while ago. I have a theory why BioWare was reluctant to show a more explicit sex scene. This subject draws attention like a black hole and everything around it grows out of proportion.



For mature gamers this is not so much the case as it is for the not so mature ones.



But the result is a hot debate and the spotlight on a few seconds of the gaming experience. This debate hurts the more subtle characterization of Shepard and his/her LI immensly.

With ME2 they tried to push the emotional story telling (hence all the daddy issues) and deeper soul search of all characters (guilt questions with Mordin, Responsibility with Samara and so on and so on). The LI subplot helps deepen the understanding of the characters and the relationship to Shepard. A nicely done sex scene would be superb, adding yet another layer.

But it more likely would be discussed out of context, display both Shepard and the whole setting in a new and rather odd light and just generally sabotage the more subtle approach of showing the facets of the characters in the game.

At least this is what happened in ME1. We had a nice sex scene and it fit perfectly into the dramatic moment of going into the last battle etc. We all remember very well.

But it was yanked out of context and it was discussed as "finally a game that allows sex with alien" etc. And no: that was NOT the point of the scene. Not at all.

The same would have happened again in ME2. Especially with the expectations being as high as they were.



Therefore it seems like the right artistic choice to emphasize the development towards the intimacy, but de-emphesize the actualy explizit content.

I regret this development as the games still need to "grow up" a lot and ME1 was on a very good way. But also i'm kinda glad that we are spared the false excitement about this subject that, considered the big scene, is only a minor facet of the whole experience.