793 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil Johnny 666]

Drakron wrote...

corebit wrote...
No, Mr. Woo takes forum opinion for what it is. A very minor and very vocal section of their entire customer base.

Ah, yes ... the silent majority.

Been a while I seen someone trying to pull that one ... please continue to speak up for the people you have no idea what they opinon happen to be.

(I do give you points from now using it a tech support issue and yes, I seen people pulling that one to deny the existence of technical problems).

Well you nailed it. We don't know what they think, thus, we shouldn't take the vocal minority's opinion any more seriously.

[coinop25]

I think it's cool that Bioware stuck to its guns on sex scenes in ME1, but it definitely seems like a valid aesthetic choice to have less-nude romance scenes. Plus, I don't see this as evidence of back-pedaling on Bioware's willingness to show semi-nude figures. After all, one of your own squad members walks around in her default outfit showing about as much skin as anyone sees in ME1.

Just saying.

[DeadRed1488]

It's my opinion that he is right, however condescending it is. You people just don't realize that it is their game, and you don't have a choice but to take it as it is, or not buy it. Voicing your complaints about this is not going to change a thing. This argument is immature, end of story. I'm fine with the romances in the ME1 and in ME2. The "scenes" did their job in both games. It's meant to be a culmination of an intimate relationship between two people. And it is, with or without side boob.

[durasteel]

DeadRed1488 wrote...
It's my opinion that [Woo] is right, however condescending it is. You people just don't realize that it is their game, and you don't have a choice but to take it as it is, or not buy it. Voicing your complaints about this is not going to change a thing. This argument is immature, end of story. <snip> .

Incorrect.

It is quite obvious that a lot of tweaks and adjustments were made for ME2 based on the feedback to ME1.  Consumers are not just allowed, but are in fact encouraged to express their opinions of the game, with the implication that BioWare is interested in creating products that will make their customers happy.

If any arguments are immature, it is those which suggest that end users should keep their thoughts to themselves with regard to any particular aspect or feature of the product.  Every customer's opinion, whether you like it or not, is valid with regard to the product they have purchased, and BioWare has demonstrated repeatedly that they appreciate and consider both complements and criticism.

[Hizoka003]

not gonna lie i went and bought the first Mass Effect because of the news about it... i did not have an Xbox whent he game first came out but i was researching games after i bought one and herd the big deal made by fox news... i thought it was retarded... especially after i read their appology that they did not have first hand knowledge of the content...





its just sad how its ok in our culture to see people heads blown off and insides but seeing a nipple is taboo





we can see peoples insides but we cannot see people inside people

[JedTed]

Guaritor wrote...

JedTed wrote...

There's just as many people on this forum who advocate same same sex romances and how Bioware included them in JE and DA:O so how is this any different? They had a very tasteful romance scene in ME1 but they toned it down in ME2.

This isn't about porn in a video game, it's about having a satisfying climax to the romance subplot. In ME1 Shepard has a long convo with his/her love interest which leads up to the sex scene, in ME2 it's just "lets go to my cabin and do it".

Eh... honestly, i thought tali's led up to it just fine, there was alot of conversation, she talked about having to find a way to do it safely etc., and i heard jack's was pretty moving too.

All in all i think the characters this game were just more in depth, though i still have a mancrush on wrex.

I don't think you need to see nudity to have a satisfying climax of the relationships.

With Tali yes, but Miranda and Jack have very little dialog exchange during the final scene.  I miss the little light hearted joke Ashley makes after they're done rollin in hay.

I don't think they need nudity either but why does Shepard have to be fully clothed during what's supposed to be an intimate sex scene(Tali's more of a make out scene so that doesn't count).

[Parallax Demon]

Once again: this thread is not about people who want to see more skin in ME2. This thread is about how BW stand their ground agianst the critism of the naked scene in ME1 and now suddenly have a lovescene in ME2 that can be broadcasted at any time on national television and an official spokesman of BW who calls the criticasters immature.

PS: adult people can make a comment without a lot of ****

PPS: what nudity in the original ME? On a warm day in the Netherlands I see a lot more bare skin than in those 20 seconds.

Modifié par Parallax Demon, 06 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[durasteel]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Well you nailed it. We don't know what they think, thus, we shouldn't take the vocal minority's opinion any more seriously.

You may not take anything seriously, but I suspect that BioWare takes any and all feedback on their games seriously, as a rule.  I'm not sure what you hope to gain by deriding the opinions of other people on a purely subjective issue, but good luck finding it.

[BamBam38]

I can see both sides...People who want the nudity maybe feel that they really care for a character or LI and feel it would be an emotional moment to have nudity part of the love scene. (although I believe that it's ridiculous if people are expecting a porn like scene).



On the other side, it's definitely not the main focus of the game. Yes there are great relationships with some characters, although involving nudity CAN be a big thing for people, whether it's good or offensive. I think Bioware is very smart to not include nudity. Sure a lot of people would like it but it COULD create some big controversy and with some misconceptions from the media, ultimately could ruin the image of the game (*cough* fox).



The love scenes are still very tasteful and belong in the game. I think we should be thankful they included interactive relationships in the game, not complaining that there's no nudity.

[MGIII]

BamBam38 wrote...

I can see both sides...People who want the nudity maybe feel that they really care for a character or LI and feel it would be an emotional moment to have nudity part of the love scene. (although I believe that it's ridiculous if people are expecting a porn like scene).

On the other side, it's definitely not the main focus of the game. Yes there are great relationships with some characters, although involving nudity CAN be a big thing for people, whether it's good or offensive. I think Bioware is very smart to not include nudity. Sure a lot of people would like it but it COULD create some big controversy and with some misconceptions from the media, ultimately could ruin the image of the game (*cough* fox).

The love scenes are still very tasteful and belong in the game. I think we should be thankful they included interactive relationships in the game, not complaining that there's no nudity.

Getting to know your characters, and how you interact with them (which includes loyalty as well as romance), is indeed the main focus of the game. You spend the most time in ME2 talking to your teammates or doing their loyalty missions.

[PyroFreak301]

I dont understand how people are coming to the conclusion that every Bioware/Mass Effect game must have at least partial nudity just because they defended their decision to include it in the first game.

[DeadRed1488]

durasteel wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...
It's my opinion that [Woo] is right, however condescending it is. You people just don't realize that it is their game, and you don't have a choice but to take it as it is, or not buy it. Voicing your complaints about this is not going to change a thing. This argument is immature, end of story. .

Incorrect.

It is quite obvious that a lot of tweaks and adjustments were made for ME2 based on the feedback to ME1.  Consumers are not just allowed, but are in fact encouraged to express their opinions of the game, with the implication that BioWare is interested in creating products that will make their customers happy.

If any arguments are immature, it is those which suggest that end users should keep their thoughts to themselves with regard to any particular aspect or feature of the product.  Every customer's opinion, whether you like it or not, is valid with regard to the product they have purchased, and BioWare has demonstrated repeatedly that they appreciate and consider both complements and criticism.

Alright, I'll grant you that. They appreciate constructive criticism and suggestions I'm sure sure. But if I were in their position, all the whining and complaining all centered around something as trivial as nudity would definitely make me question the maturity of the fans, especially when they try to attach artistic motivations and morality to it. The fact is it speaks volumes about our society (I'm American) that people make such a big deal about it. The way they talk about it anyone who doesn't add nudity are automatically guilty of giving in to public criticism and censoring themselves.

[MGIII]

PyroFreak301 wrote...

I dont understand how people are coming to the conclusion that every Bioware/Mass Effect game must have at least partial nudity just because they defended their decision to include it in the first game.

I don't think anyone is seriously demanding nudity. And this whole issue isn't keeping anyone from playing the game. The most antagonistic party in this whole "debate" are those vehemetly asserting "get laid!" to everyone, like it contributes to the discussion or pertains to anyone who would be interested in seeing a more tasteful or artful attempt romance "sex scenes." If it just faded to black, I wouldn't stop playing the game, and nobody else would. But its it wrong to like to see an emotional and relistic looking intimate moment between your avatar in ME2 and his or her romantic partner?

[Loerwyn]

Well said, for the OP. I applaud you.

As much as I could see Mr Woo's point, I couldn't help but feel that it was completely uncalled for especially as (at the end of the day) a lot of us are the ones who've contributed sometimes substantial funds towards BioWare's success.

I'll agree that some of the user base are rude, ignorant types who make mountains out of molehills and that they do reflect badly on the more mature user base, but Mr Woo's "release", in my most honest opinion, was only more mature in that it was written in English and not capitalised text speak.

[Kalfear]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Well said, for the OP. I applaud you.
As much as I could see Mr Woo's point, I couldn't help but feel that it was completely uncalled for especially as (at the end of the day) a lot of us are the ones who've contributed sometimes substantial funds towards BioWare's success.
I'll agree that some of the user base are rude, ignorant types who make mountains out of molehills and that they do reflect badly on the more mature user base, but Mr Woo's "release", in my most honest opinion, was only more mature in that it was written in English and not capitalised text speak.

Mr Woo seems to hold gamers that disagree with him in a rather ill fashion it seems.

I dont know whats happened to Bioware since the EA take over and Im still not going to blame EA outright but I certainly dont remember ever reading something as outright arrogent and rude as the quoted statement in the OP or this follow up one Im posting from other thread.

If this truely is Biowares new standard and policy, I have lost a great deal of respect I once held for them

Stanley Woo wrote...

You are absolutely correct. It is not our job to parent the child or determine what content is acceptable or unaceptable for our players. But on the other hand, it is not your jobe to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not.

Considering ME2 is nothing but changes from player feedback its kinda hard to take Mr Woo at face value or his word.

Modifié par Kalfear, 06 février 2010 - 10:57 .

[PyroFreak301]

MGIII wrote...
I don't think anyone is seriously demanding nudity. And this whole issue isn't keeping anyone from playing the game. The most antagonistic party in this whole "debate" are those vehemetly asserting "get laid!" to everyone, like it contributes to the discussion or pertains to anyone who would be interested in seeing a more tasteful or artful attempt romance "sex scenes." If it just faded to black, I wouldn't stop playing the game, and nobody else would. But its it wrong to like to see an emotional and relistic looking intimate moment between your avatar in ME2 and his or her romantic partner?

Of course it's not wrong, I'm sure a more detailed sex scene between Shepard and his/her LI would be very much welcomed by 90% of the players.

However a lot people in this thread seem to be attacking Biowares integrity for not including nudity as though it's expected of them. Yes, they defended their right to include nudity in ME1, hoorah for them. Yet when they defend their right to NOT include nudity they've apparently given in to pressure and are morally corrupt. I'm not blind to the fact that pressure probably influenced their decision in no small part, but all we can do is speculate.

Bioware made the game. They called the shots. It's really as simple as that.

[Evil Johnny 666]

durasteel wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Well you nailed it. We don't know what they think, thus, we shouldn't take the vocal minority's opinion any more seriously.

You may not take anything seriously, but I suspect that BioWare takes any and all feedback on their games seriously, as a rule.  I'm not sure what you hope to gain by deriding the opinions of other people on a purely subjective issue, but good luck finding it.

Yeah, I'm sure they take all the feedback seriously, but ultimately, they won't take everything and try to please everyone. They'll be like: "Ok, that might be true, yeah that's a good idea" and change something more or less according to the vision of the person or simply not being influenced by another feedback because it wouldn't make sense or whatnot. Thing is, these sort of things (sex scenes) is certainly one of those things that they decide themselves unlike gameplay elements. i'm pretty sure that they don't check feedback for such design decisions.

[RogueWriter3201]

I think everyone here (well, mostly everyone) has given one valid viewpoint or another concerning the Pros and Cons of Love Making depictions in the ME Saga. For me, it's really not a big deal one way or the other. I just want a story that makes me Care about the people who are fighting beside me and in who's Hands I am placing Shepard's Life, and in that regards I think Bioware delivered Ten-fold. However, in regards to this particular post, I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing.

I agree that Bioware defended thier course of Artistic action with ME1, and many respected members of the Gaming Press came to thier defense as well. I disagree that they back-peddled, and the reason I do is that the OP is basing that assuption on one Man's comment. Someone can, and I hope they do, correct me if I am wrong, but the only member of the Bioware team to speak out vehemently about this Topic has been Mr. Woo. Something I found strange given his usual sense of ease and open-mindedness over the Course of many varying topics. Other common faces on the Fourms (Mr. Priestly, Christina, etc) have always had a bit of a laugh when warrented, but for the most part have simply accepted that a more mature theme in the game was something some people wanted, and some people did not, and they often left it as that with no more then a verbal nod or a painless bit of humorous proding.

However, in the case of Mr. Woo, this issue seems to bring up an almost bewildering level of antagonism and hostility. As such, I can not help but wonder if the Topic in question (Sex in the Mass Effect Saga) became a heated debate inside Bioware, with many of the Writers and Devs being for it, and many against it. If so, the debate might have caused enough friction between the team that it became a sore topic even AFTER it was settled and the game released. If that is the case, I can understand Mr. Woo's malcontent in regards to the mature Love Making Scene topic; none the less, it is dissapointing to see someone usualy so well composed lash out at those who are expressing an opinion, whether well thought out or not.

To close, I do not think we can claim that Bioware back-peddled on their Artistic Morals or Stance based on the comments of one person. As such, I think we should attempt to keep a more open mind on this topic, continue to discuss it with as much maturity as we can muster, and see where they decide to go with Mass Effect 3.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Kalfear wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

Well said, for the OP. I applaud you.
As much as I could see Mr Woo's point, I couldn't help but feel that it was completely uncalled for especially as (at the end of the day) a lot of us are the ones who've contributed sometimes substantial funds towards BioWare's success.
I'll agree that some of the user base are rude, ignorant types who make mountains out of molehills and that they do reflect badly on the more mature user base, but Mr Woo's "release", in my most honest opinion, was only more mature in that it was written in English and not capitalised text speak.

Mr Woo seems to hold gamers that disagree with him in a rather ill fashion it seems.

I dont know whats happened to Bioware since the EA take over and Im still not going to blame EA outright but I certainly dont remember ever reading something as outright arrogent and rude as the quoted statement in the OP or this follow up one Im posting from other thread.

If this truely is Biowares new standard and policy, I have lost a great deal of respect I once held for them

Stanley Woo wrote...

You are absolutely correct. It is not our job to parent the child or determine what content is acceptable or unaceptable for our players. But on the other hand, it is not your jobe to dictate what content we include or don't include in our games. Game development is not a collaborative effort between developers and gamers; it is a dictatorship, where we alone determine what content goes into our game. You the player make the choice whether that content is acceptable to you (and/or your family) or not.

Considering ME2 is nothing but changes from player feedback its kinda hard to take Mr Woo at face value or his word.

1st: there's many immature people here, and regardless of the OP wanting or not the see ******, there was a sort of attack on Bioware about self-censuring themselves. Hell, what's the problem, he didn't censored himself!

2nd: "nothing but changes from player feedback" is a little far-fetched. First all those changes from feedback were purely on a gameplay level instead of design like showing sex scenes. Then, a lot complained about what they actually did with the feedback. People thought the Mako exploration sucked, they deleted it. Some thought it could only be worked upon, some thought it was a good idea. Yeah, they took the feedback, but whatever the feedback was, what they did with it was purely of their choice. Like the inventory, now people are compaining that it's lacking, again because they decided what to do with the feedback. But yeah. they listened to the fans. Sure, he went a little far with this for obvious reasons, but you're not closer to reason.

[LadyLuminary]

To the OP: I love you. Marry me.

The whole reason why I was disappointed with the fade-to-black was that it wasn't satisfying in the slightest. In ME1, the culmination of your romance had so much emotion that it really felt like you were there. In ME2, they tease you and then that's it.

I don't want anything remotely like a porno, mind you. I want tastefulness.

[orbit991]

MassFrost wrote...

Ryzinn wrote...

I completely agree with the OP. Instead of listening Bioware is pretty much insulting and or ignoring its user base.

Take this thread for instance
http://social.biowar.../index/923059/1

Instead of giving me a decent reply, bioware decided to close the thread. Hopefully I struck a chord but who knows.

So basically you're asking them to make a niche game that won't draw in nearly as much revenue as a game that would attract a much larger audience? Do you have any concept of how a business works?

Yea I do, what your describing is mediocrity watered down to the lowest common denominator, dragged down through focus groups and left with a skeleton devoid of any substance. Thnkfully Bioware has good writers to keep things interesting, but this gritty universe is looking more and more like a Disney version of edgy.

And yea Mr Woo is sounding quite arrogant, that 2 million copies sold is going to he's head it seems. Maybe they got enough new customers, but still, I would think insulting some of he's base is not a good long term plan, leave that to EA, they are masters at that game.

[Shesau]

I would think that the maturity of Mass Effect 2 would be measured in the quality of the relationships, not the sex scenes.

Sigh... Look, I'm all for artistic expression. I was rooting for BW with everyone else when Fox pulled that half-assed, "Oh look, we're covering a big huge controversy and we have professionals to back it up!" coverage on Mass 1 years ago. BioWare stood by their choice in that instance. Now here we stand with the sequel, years after the fact, and just because they made a different artistic choice is not indicative that they are "backing down" or backpedaling.

I have no interest in starting up a whole new "Shepard is/isn't gay" spiel, but the most logical thing I can compare this situation to is the cutting of Kaidan's bisexuality. Content can be cut at any stage for any number of reasons. Budget, cohesion issues, inconsistency, rewriting of a character, and yes, for finding ways that best appeal to your biggest audience. We don't know why Kaidan's alternate lifestyle was removed, or why BioWare decided to keep the "sex" rated PG-13 in Mass 2. God forbid it wasn't some bigoted marketing ploy or spinelessness on their part. Maybe they just didn't want to figure out the mechanics of Shepard kissing Tali while strategically not showing us her face (because they know that drives us utterly insane that we can't see her!).

I am not hurt by the presence or absence of a sex scene. I am an adult, the romances that would lead to the aforementioned sex are entirely optional, and it's the actual development of the relationship that is my primary concern anyway. But BioWare is not a platform from which an activist should launch their tirades. It is a company, owned now by another company, that creates games - not political statements.

As for Mr Woo's comment... I say let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone. We all get aggravated and say things that were probably best left unsaid. Maybe Stanley got in a car accident that morning and had been fighting with the insurance bot over the phone for the past four hours. Maybe he spilled coffee on his khakis. Who knows? But his one remark (which of my years of haunting BioWare forums, I can tell you is very out of place for Stanley Woo) is not a personal slight on anyone. To take it as such should be a sign that one should step back and re-evaluate how involved they are in the discussion. Should he apologize? ...I think so. But for long time patrons of BioWare to get in such a huff over something so small just seemed petty to me.

Modifié par Shesau, 06 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[BamBam38]

MGIII wrote...

BamBam38 wrote...

I can see both sides...People who want the nudity maybe feel that they really care for a character or LI and feel it would be an emotional moment to have nudity part of the love scene. (although I believe that it's ridiculous if people are expecting a porn like scene).

On the other side, it's definitely not the main focus of the game. Yes there are great relationships with some characters, although involving nudity CAN be a big thing for people, whether it's good or offensive. I think Bioware is very smart to not include nudity. Sure a lot of people would like it but it COULD create some big controversy and with some misconceptions from the media, ultimately could ruin the image of the game (*cough* fox).

The love scenes are still very tasteful and belong in the game. I think we should be thankful they included interactive relationships in the game, not complaining that there's no nudity.

Getting to know your characters, and how you interact with them (which includes loyalty as well as romance), is indeed the main focus of the game. You spend the most time in ME2 talking to your teammates or doing their loyalty missions.

Just to clarify, because I don't think i made it clear, i'm more reffering to the love scenes. not the relationships

[Llandaryn]

Aquilas wrote...

Because BioWare included partial nudity in ME1—and affirmed its right
to do so, vociferously and forcefully, when challenged by the "morality
police.”  BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting
adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. 
People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex.  During
that time BioWare told Fox News--and other critics--that it was the
critics who needed to be mature and adult about tasteful, intimate
elements in ME1.  And now BioWare labels as immature fans who criticize
BioWare's choice in ME2: a choice to omit content included in ME1.

Know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.

Bioware set out to push boundaries with ME1. They did it, and they proved their critics (and the media) wrong. It doesn't mean they have to keep doing it. They know that they can do it, if they want to. Doesn't mean that they have to.

[durasteel]

People seem to enjoy pointing out the extreme on one side of the argument by deriding non-existent demands for explicit sex scenes. On the other extreme, however, there would simply be a message with Cerberus logo saying "Shepard has had intercourse." No dialog, no seeing some NPC come to Shepard's cabin, nothing. Obviously, that would be very, very weak.



I mention this to point out that this is not a "yes or no" issue - it is more of a sliding scale. Wanting to nudge the slider back up to where it was in ME1 hardly makes someone immature, or a perv. Looking at the scale from X rated to nothing, the difference between ME1 and ME2 is relatively minor, but I can say with certainty that it felt much more significant to me when Shepard found companionship in the first game compared to the second.



I liked the scene in ME2, but I liked the scene in ME1 better. It wasn't just the butt and the side boob - the entire mood of the scene was much more immediate and compelling. I think that's what happens when you "tone down" something like that - the scripters and animators just don't put as much into it as they might if they were unfettered.



I think probably the opposite happened in Dragon Age: they decided to go Full Monty rather than letting the art department do something artistic. The result was pretty uninspired. Of course, they then turned it into a sad joke by adding the Walmart underwear. Alas.