793 réponses à ce sujet

[Killian Kalthorne]

I don't care too much about nudity in my games. What I do care about is story consistency and that the aspects of the story makes sense. Dragon Age romance scenes made no sense. As stated above, Morrigan putting on more clothes on to have sex is stupid. Stupidly designed and stupidly written.



The scenes in ME2 were tame in comparison in ME1 and while they were better designed and written than Dragon Age, they were a lot more tame and weak than ME1 that it makes one wonder if the Fox News fiasco had influence on the design.



Bottomline is this. Sex scenes and nudity needs to be done right or not at all. ME1 did it right. ME2 and Dragon Age did them wrong. Either Bioware needs to do them right or not put them in the game in the first place. Also, Mr. Woo's condescending attitude towards the fanbase is not appreciated. If it wasn't for the fanbase buying Bioware products, Mr. Woo, you would be out of a job.

[Tikkidew]

durasteel wrote...

I liked the scene in ME2, but I liked the scene in ME1 better. It wasn't just the butt and the side boob - the entire mood of the scene was much more immediate and compelling. I think that's what happens when you "tone down" something like that - the scripters and animators just don't put as much into it as they might if they were unfettered.

^that!

And thank you to the OP. I was bit insulted by the comments of Mr. Woo after I read them. I'm glad someone brought his attitude to light. Someone in EA PR needs to put a leash on that guy. Just him lashing out like that speaks a thousand words. It's obvious what's really going on here.

[Gorn Kregore]

Tikkidew wrote...
And thank you to the OP. I was bit insulted by the comments of Mr. Woo after I read them. I'm glad someone brought his attitude to light. Someone in EA PR needs to put a leash on that guy. Just him lashing out like that speaks a thousand words. It's obvious what's really going on here.

Calm down guy who gets arroused over pixels (LOL).

[anyawow2]

I agree completely with the OP and it was very well written. I hope Bioware gets ME3 right.

[Killian Kalthorne]

This reminds me of a Red Dwarf episode.

RImmer:  That's the whole point.  They are just a load of pixels.
Lister:  Yeah, but what pixels!

[Toastysoul]

I agree with the OP, and I understand the core issue isn't so much nudity, but what can be seen as backsliding in the development of VGs as a medium. Hardly any developer takes risks to improve the medium, and even though the coverage was negative, the fact that ME1 made such waves in the mainstream press was a good thing.



A lot of posters seem to have the attitude of "OMG it's just boobs, what's ur problem?" The problem is, nudity is like any other aspect of the game -- detail.



For anyone that completed the romance subplot of the first & second game, this is as obvious an omission as Shepard leaving his helmet off during a spacewalk. It's game, he's just pixels, he doesn't breathe, and so doesn't really need his helmet in space, which isn't really a vacuum because it's just a black background with some white spots in it right? I mean, it's just a helmet, so what's the big deal? You can just imagine he has a helmet on and it's the same thing isn't it? It's only a game anyway, what's the big deal if he's in hard vacuum without his helmet?



Oh wait -- helmets aren't controversial, and so those can be included, but nudity is still out. Romance subplots really have little in the way of reward for the trouble of pursuing the companion. Part of that reward is the intimate scene when the quest work comes to fruition. To water the scene down in comparison with the first game is a let down no matter what the reason. Sequels are about more --- more intense combat, more dialog options, more severe consequences, more emotional connection --- but less intimacy? No, that is folly. The nudity, like any well developed detail, adds to the scene. It builds on the intimacy and the privacy of the moment. To be fair, I would be much less invested in the matter if it were about Shep visibly whipping it out to impress his companion. However, that's not what happened in the first game. Really though, could you imagine the indignity of FNC & the horror of "middle america" if that's what had happened? ROTFL.



I could really write about this for an hour, but what it comes down to is this:



You took detail out of (or just failed to include in) the game to satisfy people that would never have bought the game in the first place. You will never ever convince someone to buy the game by saying "LOOK NO BOOBS IN ME2!". That doesn't make it more family friendly, it's not a family game, never was. What you did is to lose the crowd that would have bought that game *just because* ME2 has boobs. You also generated a lot of chagrin from those of us that enjoyed the scenes from the first game, and feel you left it out (again) because of puritans that never would have bought your game to begin with.



I for one enjoyed seeing a little nudity in the first game. I thought it added a lot to the scene, and made the subplot worth my time. I don't feel like I wasted my time with ME2's romance subplot, but I was left feeling disappointed regardless. Even my wife was disappointed it wasn't there. Yes I'm married, yes we both play (real) VGs (i.e. RPGs, MMOs, not solitare), and -- yes, even she liked the ME1 nudity. She was surprised I chose Lia over Ash, then asked me to do Ash's subplot so she could see her love scene. When she watched the scene in ME2 (predictable in game timing of the conclusion to that BTW, also lame) she literally asked me: "Why no boob shot?"



There ya have it Boiware: Straight from the woman: Why no boob shot?



To all the "OMG it's just boobs" ppl, We both see naked boobs every day, we're still both excited to see them in a game. You are the ones that need to grow up. If having them (or not) in a game isn't a big deal to you, then why are you in here saying so? Clearly if you really didn't care, you just wouldn't waste your time making a post. On the other hand, if you don't like boobs, have your mom put her hand in front of your eyes for the "big boy parts of the game", and let the rest of us enjoy the game the way we want.

[TopUSGun]

Aquilas wrote...

http://www.cinemable...Boob-22724.html
 
Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.  Does BioWare have the right to choose not to include nudity or partial nudity in a game?  Of course it does.  But it shouldn’t lash out at fans who remark on an obvious inconsistency from ME1 to ME2.  I won’t take the bait in responding to insults regarding my maturity or lack thereof.  Because in my judgment, BioWare’s choice represents compromising its philosophy, perhaps even a core principle, BioWare defended in ME1.
 
Putting personal attacks on fan maturity aside, it is very reasonable to conclude BioWare chose not to include any partial nudity in ME2 because it’s reacting to criticism by the "morality police.”  Why would BioWare do that?  To increase its customer base, hence profitability.  For BioWare to claim such omissions are purely an artistic choice is disingenuous at best.
 
How can we conclude this?  Because BioWare included partial nudity in ME1—and affirmed its right to do so, vociferously and forcefully, when challenged by the "morality police.”  BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest.  People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex.  During that time BioWare told Fox News--and other critics--that it was the critics who needed to be mature and adult about tasteful, intimate elements in ME1.  And now BioWare labels as immature fans who criticize BioWare's choice in ME2: a choice to omit content included in ME1.  Are some of these ME2 fan criticisms juvenile?  You betcha.  But many are thoughtful and mature.
 
Concomitantly, BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice."  Seriously?  That "aesthetic" choice resulted in Morrigan showing less breast in love scenes than she did in her standard outfit.  So her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex.  Aesthetic choice?  Please.
 
Much has been written about changes to the combat and inventory gameplay elements in ME2 to make it more of a shooter, so I’m not going to address those here.  But I give BioWare credit for being more open—if more than a bit subtle, too—in admitting those changes were not only in response to fan suggestions but also to increase ME2’s marketability.  We know this because BioWare has said several times, in several interviews, it’s trying to broaden Mass Effect 2’s appeal, to attract a player who may not have considered it before.  That means marketability and profitability.  One writer in these forums has called ME2 “Gears of War with Interactive Dialogue.”  I think that’s an overstatement, but it captures many fans’ feelings.  I think BioWare has been more honest in discussing shooter changes than those involving intimate content.
 
I think ME2 is a worthy successor to ME1.  I enjoy the story, the character development, and yes, the combat system.  Unlike some writers, I think the story arc flows well from ME1 to ME2, and some plot developments pleasantly surprised me.

 What I don’t like is BioWare condescending to fans who raise legitimate concerns about changes in intimate content from ME1 to ME2—concerns based on obvious incongruities in BioWare’s own stated philosophy and goals in game development.  I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably: it wanted to meet standards and goals Bobby Kotick has stated plainly—and honestly—many times.  That would show respect for BioWare’s fans—not disdain.

QFT

[TigerTongPo]

To the OP:



I don't think you've amply demonstrated that Bioware did anything incongruent with their own stated philosophy. They stated they wanted to depict the scenes as honest. Was there anything dishonest in the depiction? Were the scenes unbelievable or unrealistic? They turned off the camera before anyone got naked, true, but where is the contract between Bioware and the gaming community that says, "We, Bioware, agree to display digital nudity in every depiction of intimacy based on the precedent of Mass Effect 1, because the honest depiction of intimacy requires nudity."



If your real gripe is not about a raging desire for pixel flesh, but rather about the way Bioware depicted the scenes then it seems you should consider some of the most famous or beloved film "love scenes" that, by and large, portray even less nudity and still manage to present heartwarming/wrenching images of romantic love. But when you rant and rave about Bioware not continuing based on some perceived precedent created in the first game you end up making it seem as though the nakedness is indeed more important than the "honest depiction." I say this because the only true dramatic difference in the scenes is the presence of partial nudity. Can you say, without reservation, that the ME 2 romances were less honest than the ME 1 romances? Because THAT was the benchmark Bioware set. Honest portrayals of adult relationships. Not naked portrayals of adults.



Frankly, Mr. Woo was well within his right to respond as he did. While none of us sat in on the decision making process, there are a lot of forum posters that log in and vent their righteous indignation and profess to know the truth behind the shady back room conspiracy that denied them their digital side boob. The customer is not always right, but he is frequently loud. Mr. Woo addressed the immature posters in a fairly direct fashion. If you were advancing an intelligent argument, you would be well within your rights to assume that, while his arguments go against your beliefs, his tone was not intended for you. It isn't personal, and it isn't relevant to the ultimate concern of whether or not Bioware abandoned their vision. In fact, attacking the employees of Bioware makes you seem less reasonable than if you limited yourself to attacking the product of Bioware.



So let Mr. Woo be and consider again, whether the love scenes in ME 2 were dishonest, or whether you simply had a preconceived expectation that was not met, and now you're angry about it and looking to blame the developers for not complying with your expectation.

[gethsemani87]

Toastysoul wrote...

You took detail out of (or just failed to include in) the game to satisfy people that would never have bought the game in the first place. You will never ever convince someone to buy the game by saying "LOOK NO BOOBS IN ME2!". That doesn't make it more family friendly, it's not a family game, never was. What you did is to lose the crowd that would have bought that game *just because* ME2 has boobs. You also generated a lot of chagrin from those of us that enjoyed the scenes from the first game, and feel you left it out (again) because of puritans that never would have bought your game to begin with.

If this was a court room this is where you'd be getting objections because you are inferring and making up theories. Is it possible that the "side boob" was omitted because of the Media circus around ME1 (and its' rape simulation and sodomy with lots of alien species)? Yes of course.
Is it possible there is another reason, one that Bioware is keeping for themselves? Yes, obviously.

Personally, I don't care either way about the nudity. I did my first playthrough as a FemShep, trying both Jacobs and Thanes romance and of the two Thanes come off as far more engaging because there seems to be actual emotion involved. Sure, I get to see Jacobs six pack, but compared to Thanes emotional speech it feels rather arbitrary and more like fan service.

See, there are plenty of movies who does this. You see a kiss or similar before a fade to black and let the viewer connect the dots between "kissing while undressing on a bed" and "makin love". But usually people don't complain about Natalie Portman, Jessica Alba or Zhang Ziyi being bad actors for not showing their boobs. Nor do they go after the Director who had  the "bad taste"/"Lack of moral fibre"/"poor attitude" not to include a fan service shot of the female leads boobs during the love scene.

I am sorry, but I think this is a non-issue. The amount of clothes in any given scene portraying romance is irrelevant as long as it is justified (though, arguably in DA:O it just went horribly wrong what with the softcore positioning... and the underwear). What you are trying to achieve is to create the feeling of intimacy and last time I checked, fan service boob shots were not necessary to achieve that. Not in movies and not in computer games.

[Biocrazy]

This whole thread is about as dumb ass stupid as the day is long, STOP!! get a life allready.

(come back after your sober)

[The Greywolf]

Well, considering the content of many posts since ME2 was released, AND the way people

are fixating on things that are relatively unimportant, I'd say Mr Woo was right to refer to a

number of fans as immature. Rather than refuting the point, many posts in this thread seem

to be enhancing it. Way to go proving him wrong, people.

[Nayt Navare]

While I question motives and truths, I respect Bioware's decision to create the game they created.

[thisisreallyd0mb]

We have no evidence at all of Bioware caving to outside demands, affecting the design of ME2.



...except that the very first thing that happens when the game starts up is that it asks you to make an EA account. As but one in a long line of examples.



And it's great how everyone against the issue is just like "ur ar dumb get a life". Great argument people. Might wanna look up "ad hominem" sometime. It's the same thing with the gay shepard argument.



Side 1: Bioware has creative control, and just HAPPENED to decide that gay men are too icky to include in both games, even though there's tons of discussion of lesbian relationships, and the whole point of sexuality in ME was to give you lifelike choices as a player.



Side 2: Seriously people, you can not take Side 1 unless you're just blind to any possible line of logical reasoning.



The nudity issue...



Side 1: Bioware can do whatever they want. Which includes having less nudity in a game where the overall tone is ridiculously much darker and grittier than the first game, when Bioware fought so hard to maintain their artistic right to present nudity in response to criticism of the first game, not to mention they're more closely using likenesses of people so nudity is obviously not an option.



Side 2: Come on.

[juxtaposedjoker]

Thank you OP! I was taken aback by Mr. Woo's hot headed replies and I think your response wraps up how I feel about that and nudity in ME1.



Honesty with the people who buy your product is important. So is treating them with respect as anyone who ever held any sort of customer service position would know.



How could Bioware or Mr. Woo be so surprised by an adverse fan base reaction to their 180 on this? I agree that the game medium is an artistic one however when has art and censorship ever gone hand in hand?



Let's even can the whole censorship thing and talk about fantastical realism--that mechanism that allows the player to be absorbed in the game. The player can't suspend belief too much but also doesn't want to feel like they're playing a Sim. The balance was great in ME1 and the change to the romance scenes in ME2 sent that balance off kilter. I think maybe had ME1 had clothed scenes this would have been less so but then ME1 would have been a less ground breaking game in terms of gaming as an artistic medium all together.



Isn't art supposed to progress? Isn't it supposed to challenge boundaries? The ME series has done this in so many ways thus far whether its the role play elements, game mechanics, the cut scenes etc etc etc. I don't understand why they took the step backwards and Mr. Woos "because we wanna!" rings hallow. Did the avant-garde manager, writer, designer, artist--whoever leave the team?



I understand that ultimately what goes in a game cannot be controlled solely by it's fan base. The vision of it's designers should come through however there were changes in ME2 that were spurred by it's fan base. I watched over and over in interviews and programs about ME2 how they really listened to the fans. Does that sound like a real dictatorship to you? I mean why even bother responding to the fan base on the forums at all? Why does bioware even have a social network when they are the "evil overlords" who have the right to choose to make the players "calculate pi all day" should they so choose? C'mon give me a break.



The criticism of the fan base HELPS games so don't be so quick to dismiss us when we say something you don't want to hear. If Bioware wants to start reducing the realism of romance in its RPGs and be just like everybody else hey fine that's their prerogative. Just don't get upset Bioware when the fan base get's perturbed when you put the boundaries that ME1 broke down back up in ME2.



So much for gaming as an artistic medium that helps progress culture...may the violence>sexuality crap prevail for the $$$!

[Sapienti]

Well I'm pretty sure sex scenes were not designed with the intention of getting your rocks off. They're just the conclusion to games romance. Are they tame? Yes. Should we feel angry about the tameness? No we have no right. What should we be angry about? Well really the only thing we have a right to be angry about is their responses. Be angry about the guy claiming it has nothing to do with the media frenzy around ME1's scenes. Be angry about the condescending attitudes and all that. But you're only hurting your cause when you say "sex scenes should be done right or not at all" because it makes you look immature and ignorant. I would have been happy with simple dialog and implied "love" in ME1 and ME2. Its the character development you go after. If you go in thinking "I can't wait to see some hot nekkid alien action" then you have no right to post against anything.



Bottom line: Be angry that Bioware appears to have succumbed to the media pressure. Don't be angry that you didn't see alien teets. Either way its just gonna seem like everyone is upset they got no side boob because there are so many people out there who just watched the scene with no pants on and then had to put them back on disappointed.

[stevej713]

Whatever. Frankly, I couldn't care less about a 20 second long scene, and I think of it as a game, not art.  I still remember the KOTOR romance, with the "kiss me" and then the fade to black.

Modifié par stevej713, 07 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[LOST SPARTANJLC]

First all , why can't it be something simple as we had trouble getting an m-rating for the ME1 scenes , we had to go back a re-do the scenes to appease the ESRB.



So with ME2 Bioware decided we don't want want that headache again and so we made them more unique but toned them done to pass the ESRB ratings process with an M-rating the first time.(I don't think Fox News is going to influence game developers.)



Who knows maybe even now their coming up with a plan to surpass ME1/2 scenes for ME3 that will push the M-rating to it's maximum since this the end of this Trilogy.

[h_pepon]

 "Romance subplots really have little in the way of reward for the trouble of pursuing the companion." Bingo. 

I said it before and I do it again: the lack of deeper and meaningful interaction between Shepard and his or her LI, forces the sex scene to carry a way-too-heavy burden, for it is the only reward for pursuing the romance. As long as (insert your LI here) isn't more special than, say, Grunt, people will give too much emphasis on the sex scene.

[Sapienti]

h_pepon wrote...

 "Romance subplots really have little in the way of reward for the trouble of pursuing the companion." Bingo. 

I said it before and I do it again: the lack of deeper and meaningful interaction between Shepard and his or her LI, forces the sex scene to carry a way-too-heavy burden, for it is the only reward for pursuing the romance. As long as (insert your LI here) isn't more special than, say, Grunt, people will give too much emphasis on the sex scene.

True, but I believe thats moreso for the short sighted. I went after (X) because I was curious to see how it would turn out in ME3. To me, the beauty of this series lies in seeing what will happen in the future/next game. In my opinion they should make the loyalty/non loyalty deeper in ME3. Rather than "Loyal, yes or no" make it a guage or meter or some kind of loyalty points. And then make it to where different loyalties give you different abilities/actions/commands/conversations. That would then give your love interest a special position on your team having a unique form of loyalty. It would be opening Pandora's box, and I think it would be perfect for this franchise spanning multiple games enabling them to add more and more.

Make the romance mean more than just the build up to sex and people wont be disappointed in no breasts. Basically.

[Kalfear]

h_pepon wrote...

 "Romance subplots really have little in the way of reward for the trouble of pursuing the companion." Bingo. 

I said it before and I do it again: the lack of deeper and meaningful interaction between Shepard and his or her LI, forces the sex scene to carry a way-too-heavy burden, for it is the only reward for pursuing the romance. As long as (insert your LI here) isn't more special than, say, Grunt, people will give too much emphasis on the sex scene.

You very well could be right about that as far as ME2 is concerned but Sex scenes and nudity/mature situation was a issue in DA:O as well where you most definately did feel a connection to your love interest.

I must say, to all that support more indepth and adult (be it nudity or ME1 stylized settings) content, you all have presented your arguements in a mature and tasteful fashion not rising to the insults and attempted flames directed your way!

I hope im not the only one that notices the side thats being immature about this topic is the very side Mr Woo apart of (intentionally or by default).

Hopefully the higher ups take notice of this thread and the other one and take the suggestions to heart for future games (although I wont hold my breath that Mr Woo forwards this topic like he did others that were only meaningless and shortsighted praise threads).

Anyways, thought someone needed to say it as (much like the threads that hilite ME2 shortcomings and faults) you all have acted in mature manners and not risen to the flame bait that is so common lately in any thread that says the game isnt perfect.

Well done, hold your heads high.

[Primefer]

My two cents - I do see where OP is coming from, and read about a page and a half of comments before throwing in.



ME1 romance conclusions were really well done, I believe the quote is "tasteful without being prurient" and generally felt very similar to say - a Joss Whedon love scene.



The fans of the game ate it up, in part because the romance development leading to these scenes, or the friendship leading to these was exceptionally well developed imo. (even Liara).



ME2 the romance threads felt less fleshed out, I had longer conversations with Legion and Miranda (femShep playthrough) than I did with my romantic options (pined for Liara, then broke down and had a fling with Thane after coming home from Omega 4 relay). The buildup of the relationship just didn't feel as fleshed out. Not counting Garrus in that because the relationship with Garrus, as friend or lover was started in ME1. So add this fact to a scene that ultimately feels like a bait and switch to someone coming from ME1...it's going to get ugly.



The best solution might have been, if they were bound and determined to avoid scandal (though in the wake of DA:O I don't see why) would be to have gone with a KotOR style kiss and fade to black.



Though with the consideration of DA:O - why couldn't shep have had the option of skanking his/her way around the Normandy. I had one save on DA:O where my goody-two-shoes female mage went pitter pat into Alisairs heart before breaking it off to ensure his right of succession and sacrificing herself to stop the archdemon. I followed that with a save as a male rogue who slept his way through the camp sleeping with morrigan, then zevran, then winning Leliana's heart and finishing with knocking boots with Morrigan to jumpstart a baby elder god and finished by suggesting to Leliana I would like if she stuck around for the remaining future. He was an absolute **** - I laugh my ass off thinking about it.



I mean if it's all about options right? If I have to tap dance harder to keep folks happy for a save or even know I take the risk of endangering the mission because I installed a revolving door on the captains deck why not give that option - esp since the romantic sub plots are so short.



Got off on a tangent there but maye theres some valid points buried in it...I dunno I'm tired, I'll come back and trim as needed later.

[steve1945]

I really dont care either way. I mean it seems like bioware did bow to the mps. Just a blackout scene really? But to my point.





Bioware making fun of its fanbase? ITS LIKE IM REALLY ON THE THQ/RELIC FORUMS!

[Vlainstrike]

I don't 'need' nudity in games, but I like nudity... gosh, does that make me immature, or just human? (I also appreciate good story development, beautifully designed environments, and shooting the crap out of people in games - hard to believe one person can appreciate more than one thing, i know)

I'm 36 and I hope that no matter how old I get I don't become so 'mature' that I don't like boobs any more.

I'm really getting a kick though out of seeing Bioware try to pretend that not having nudity in ME2 wasn't simply a marketing decision designed to appease the media and sell more copies to kids with parents that believe boobs are the devil.

Modifié par Vlainstrike, 07 février 2010 - 09:19 .