Maybe they figured they'd been there and done that, so adding nudity wasn't crossing any boundaries and it adds nothing to the story. Also a fade to black system allows more room for personal interpretation and imagination, which they may have felt was a more powerful image. No one except them knows why they took this path.
But hey if you want to assume Bioware caved and is evil etc. without any proof. Totally go for it, I can't see why any Bioware employees would call you immature for it.
Nudity Criticisms--BioWare Condescends. This Means You, Mr. Woo
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Aquilas
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#177
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:27
kraze07
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"I don't 'need' nudity in games, but I like nudity... gosh, does that make me immature, or just human? (I also appreciate good story development, beautifully designed environments, and shooting the crap out of people in games - hard to believe one person can appreciate more than one thing, i know)"
I feel the same way. There's nothing wrong with not having nudity, but why is considered so immature when a game does have nudity in it?
I feel the same way. There's nothing wrong with not having nudity, but why is considered so immature when a game does have nudity in it?
#178
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:30
AlloutAce
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When i saw no "partial nudity" on the rating of the game i was a little dissapointed, not in the fact that i wouldnt be seeing the side of Mirandas breast, but i felt like Bioware had conceded to "morality police" and took it out to increase sales.
My reaction to ME 1's sex scenes were, to quote a friend of mine, "I feel like i should be paying for this", it was erotic, but nothing excessive. I personally was indifferent about the actual nudity of the game.
Lets face it, the characters are sexy, they maybe pixels, but they mimick what a very attractive being would look like, even if they are blue, purple or whatever. It does kill the cinematic feel of the game a little bit when they intentionally avoid the nudity, but if thats what they need to do, too increase marketability then thats what they need to do.
Sexuality really depends on culture, in germany, breasts are widely accepted, while blood and violence are very strictly controlled. In America things are quite the opposite. I look forward too the day where sex is more accepted in video games, because, like in movies, sex can potray many elements of a story, besides romantic.
My reaction to ME 1's sex scenes were, to quote a friend of mine, "I feel like i should be paying for this", it was erotic, but nothing excessive. I personally was indifferent about the actual nudity of the game.
Lets face it, the characters are sexy, they maybe pixels, but they mimick what a very attractive being would look like, even if they are blue, purple or whatever. It does kill the cinematic feel of the game a little bit when they intentionally avoid the nudity, but if thats what they need to do, too increase marketability then thats what they need to do.
Sexuality really depends on culture, in germany, breasts are widely accepted, while blood and violence are very strictly controlled. In America things are quite the opposite. I look forward too the day where sex is more accepted in video games, because, like in movies, sex can potray many elements of a story, besides romantic.
Modifié par AlloutAce, 07 février 2010 - 09:31 .
#179
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:33
Vlainstrike
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Doesn't add to the story? are you on crack?Ahglock wrote...
Maybe they figured they'd been there and done that, so adding nudity wasn't crossing any boundaries and it adds nothing to the story. Also a fade to black system allows more room for personal interpretation and imagination, which they may have felt was a more powerful image. No one except them knows why they took this path.
But hey if you want to assume Bioware caved and is evil etc. without any proof. Totally go for it, I can't see why any Bioware employees would call you immature for it.
The love scene is the climax of the entire romance subplots... fading to black right before the good stuff would be like watching Star Wars: ANH and cutting out the part where the Death Star actually explodes!
But I guess it would at least give the viewer a rare oppurtunity to 'imagine and interpret' for themselves what an exploding planet desroying space station might be like were such an explosion to occur...
Modifié par Vlainstrike, 07 février 2010 - 09:40 .
#180
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:35
spottyblanket
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The fact you have to imaine the love scenes makes them more intense in my opinion...I think if you just saw it--it would be like that scene from watchman all over again--it would be comedic, not romantic.
#181
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:40
Stanley Woo
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Let me put on my Moderator hat for a moment to remind y'all that personal attacks, insults, and name-calling are not permitted in this forum. So please let's cut it out and be excellent to each other.
Okay, now let me put on my Stanley Woo hat. First, I'd like to thank everyone for their comment, both positive and negative. This community is here, first and foremost, for our customers and fans to talk about our games. It is also a place to hobnob directly with the developers of the games you love (or hate). Our openness, approachability, and direct access to developers are all reasons why the BioWare forums have always been well loved and critically acclaimed.
That said, a friend of mine this weekend linked me to an article which featured comments I'd made regarding the controversy surrounding the difference in the explicitness of the love scenes between Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. These comments have made me out to be a condescending jerkface who doesn't appreciate BioWare's customers, its community, or the feedback it says it wants from this community.
Please allow me to clarify the comments which appear in the article (and I've seen no less than two such articles). From the article (and my forum post):
Folks in this thread alone are under the impression that I'm addressing everyone who sees themselves as "old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game" here. I am not. Some people in the thread in which I was posting exhibited this behaviour, certainly not all. Some in our community also believe in the "customer is always right" mentality. If we do something counter to what a customer suggests or prefers, such people rationalize, it has to be due to other factors such as the media uproar over ME1 or wanting to attract a wider audience or, in this case, "self-censorship."
There were many good points made in that thread, good and bad, and I was totally okay with people speaking their mind. For some, however, speaking their mind meant cruel accusations, wild speculation, and feeling entitled to take us to task for daring to not include the features they want.
I've participated in, followed, and locked down many a thread since Mass Effect 1 which equates maturity with explicit sex and/or nudity. There is a small subsection of our community which believes wholeheartedly that an M-rated game with character and story development must needs have boobs and boinking in any and all romances.
I think this passage might have contributed to the accusations of arrogance and condescension, but I was merely speaking the truth. I have no doubt in my mind that, if the project directors decided to not have purple-bellied quatloos in Mass Effect 3, it would be very difficult to change their mind regardless of whether you were a customer, fan, media outlet, the government, or Fancypants the Flying Zebra. This makes a lot more sense when you consider that, by the time you hear about some features, they're already a done deal. Or, put another way, by the time you hear that a certain thing isn't in or has changed, it may very well be too late to do anything about it. That's just the way any huge project works. Some stuff, you talk about early in the process. Some you talk about late in the process. Some things can change easily, some things take work to change, and some require extensive breakdown or complete destruction to change.
When the heck did I make that original post they're quoting from, anyway? Sheesh, I can hardly remember. But I will address some of the comments made in this thread, not in the hopes of changing anyone's mind, but hopefully to make them feel a tiny bit less bad and/or to make them think I'm slightly less of a horrendous jerkface than they currently believe. Then, I can take a few questions, since I don't think I'm busy Sunday.
I'll make a new post cuz this one's getting long, and I'm well aware of the TL;DR factor in online message boards.
Okay, now let me put on my Stanley Woo hat. First, I'd like to thank everyone for their comment, both positive and negative. This community is here, first and foremost, for our customers and fans to talk about our games. It is also a place to hobnob directly with the developers of the games you love (or hate). Our openness, approachability, and direct access to developers are all reasons why the BioWare forums have always been well loved and critically acclaimed.
That said, a friend of mine this weekend linked me to an article which featured comments I'd made regarding the controversy surrounding the difference in the explicitness of the love scenes between Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2. These comments have made me out to be a condescending jerkface who doesn't appreciate BioWare's customers, its community, or the feedback it says it wants from this community.
Please allow me to clarify the comments which appear in the article (and I've seen no less than two such articles). From the article (and my forum post):
People who claim to be old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game seem to believe that any lack of sex and nudity in the game is a sign of self-censorship.
Folks in this thread alone are under the impression that I'm addressing everyone who sees themselves as "old enough and mature enough to handle sex and nudity in a game" here. I am not. Some people in the thread in which I was posting exhibited this behaviour, certainly not all. Some in our community also believe in the "customer is always right" mentality. If we do something counter to what a customer suggests or prefers, such people rationalize, it has to be due to other factors such as the media uproar over ME1 or wanting to attract a wider audience or, in this case, "self-censorship."
There were many good points made in that thread, good and bad, and I was totally okay with people speaking their mind. For some, however, speaking their mind meant cruel accusations, wild speculation, and feeling entitled to take us to task for daring to not include the features they want.
They generally don't believe that a game can be called 'mature' without explicit sex and/or nudity.
I've participated in, followed, and locked down many a thread since Mass Effect 1 which equates maturity with explicit sex and/or nudity. There is a small subsection of our community which believes wholeheartedly that an M-rated game with character and story development must needs have boobs and boinking in any and all romances.
Let me tell you, folks, that as a developer full of mature individuals, we are also free to not have explicit sex and/or nudity in our games, no matter what you, Fox News, the government, or Bunky the Wonder Clown has to say about it. We have never considered it a 'problem,' it is simply a choice we have made and we have every right to make that choice.
I think this passage might have contributed to the accusations of arrogance and condescension, but I was merely speaking the truth. I have no doubt in my mind that, if the project directors decided to not have purple-bellied quatloos in Mass Effect 3, it would be very difficult to change their mind regardless of whether you were a customer, fan, media outlet, the government, or Fancypants the Flying Zebra. This makes a lot more sense when you consider that, by the time you hear about some features, they're already a done deal. Or, put another way, by the time you hear that a certain thing isn't in or has changed, it may very well be too late to do anything about it. That's just the way any huge project works. Some stuff, you talk about early in the process. Some you talk about late in the process. Some things can change easily, some things take work to change, and some require extensive breakdown or complete destruction to change.
When the heck did I make that original post they're quoting from, anyway? Sheesh, I can hardly remember. But I will address some of the comments made in this thread, not in the hopes of changing anyone's mind, but hopefully to make them feel a tiny bit less bad and/or to make them think I'm slightly less of a horrendous jerkface than they currently believe. Then, I can take a few questions, since I don't think I'm busy Sunday.
I'll make a new post cuz this one's getting long, and I'm well aware of the TL;DR factor in online message boards.
#182
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:50
asaiasai
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There can never be enough topics on a forum concerning any product people pay money for. Everybody is entitled to voice thier opinion here, regardless of who agree with it. I for one was disappointed with the lack of nudity in a mature game. I have no delusions that there are those who find this content offensive and as such i support the idea that this content not be in the original release version so that the game is marketable to as many peoople as possible. I do want to make my point and say that this content should be avaliable as a DLC then only those who really want it can have it. To decide that the content so vigorously defended a few years ago is now taboo is a complete about face by Bioware and the OP has the right to ask why, most importantly so does any one else. The problem as i see it is that there will always be those individuals who will decide that something is not right for them and they are totally correct. That is as far as thier rights extend though, if i or anyone else decide that the content is a bit bland, as a customer we can petition the developer to include an option more acceptable to us we have that right. Your rights never superceed our rights and ours never superceed yours the trouble is getting some folks to understand that. If the content was avaliable as a DLC for extra cost then those who choose to pay extra have every right to do so whether some disagree with the content. Nice post OP i support you never mind the others keep the topic alive, if we can generate enough interest we might be able to convince the developer to make this content as a DLC for the future of ME2 or even prepare to lay the ground work for it to be made for ME3.
Asai
Asai
#183
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:53
Errol Dnamyx
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Stanly is 100% right. Like it or not, but it makes perfect sense.
The ME2 scenes were just there to show you that your shephard and the LI have reached the stage of an intimate relationship. Everything else is up to the players imagination and i personally like it that way. Its not better or worse than the ME1 scene, its just slightly different.
The ME2 scenes were just there to show you that your shephard and the LI have reached the stage of an intimate relationship. Everything else is up to the players imagination and i personally like it that way. Its not better or worse than the ME1 scene, its just slightly different.
Modifié par Errol Dnamyx, 07 février 2010 - 10:06 .
#184
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:53
Vlainstrike
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jeez man, way to steel my thunder! - I thought that star wars thing was pretty funny, but ya had to go and ruin it all by throwin up your wall-o'moderator-text before anyone saw it... grrrrrrr
(just teasin btw)
(just teasin btw)
Modifié par Vlainstrike, 07 février 2010 - 09:55 .
#185
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:57
LokiHades
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Tleining wrote...
@ Evil Johnny
do yourself a favor and read the OP, really read and think about it.
Bioware defended the Romance Scenes of ME1: "BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex." (OP)
And now in ME2 they don't have that. And the fans who expected Bioware to stand by their previous statements are let down, and suddenly they (the fans) are immature for expecting that.
Again: Bioware has every right to make the game how they want to do it. I like ME2 like it is, but i still wonder why they changed their position on intimate relationships. And so far there has not been an explanation on that, except of course, that fans who wanted that are immature.
This.
Honestly, I'm upset they went back on their statement. It's the same thing as a false promise, like PM saying Fable 2 will have this and this and not delivering in the end. (Disclaimer: I liked Fable 2, but it really felt lacking after the hype engine PM created).
I was also disappointed when I looked at DAO's scenes, with the silliness of the giant undergarments (their actions were their, the passion was their, but said undergarments ruined the atmosphere), and was hoping ME2 would deliver even partial nudity (better than fade to black and pretending they made love), yet it failed to live up to their statement.
If I wanted to watch porn, I'd go online, search up whatever it was I wanted, and go with it. I just think there's a sore lack of mature depictions of sex in the games industry, and when Bioware went on being one of those who I thought had nailed it with ME1, I was distressed at the lack of said depiction in ME2.
I cannot blame them fully, however, as they were hit hard by Fox, and hundreds of "cocerned parents" (The same ones who let their children play violent video games in the first place <_<). But as a man of his word, I'd have stuck by ideals and statements, even were I to receive scrutiny from others.
Basically, I think that Bioware should've remembered their statement, that ME1 got it right, and that ME2 felt lacking due to it's removal.
I still love ME1 and ME2, DAO, and everything Bioware's done, though this was a tad disappointing.
#186
Posté 07 février 2010 - 09:58
Terror_K
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I personally didn't care that the scenes were toned down a bit in ME2 as far as the actual toning down goes, but the whole thing, to me, almost seems to send the message that Fox News have now won a battle they had previously already lost. And that kind or irks me, nudity or not.
The fact was, the original game presented the scenes in a tasteful, appropriate and very genre-fitting manner that suits the style of the medium. I don't really see the need to tone down the content. And I suppose a lot of people out there are wondering exactly why the choice was made regarding ME2 to do that, because it definitely seems like a conscious decision that the ME2 team decided to purposefully avoid it this time around. I don't know... only you, Stanley, and those who worked on the game would know for sure.
The fact was, the original game presented the scenes in a tasteful, appropriate and very genre-fitting manner that suits the style of the medium. I don't really see the need to tone down the content. And I suppose a lot of people out there are wondering exactly why the choice was made regarding ME2 to do that, because it definitely seems like a conscious decision that the ME2 team decided to purposefully avoid it this time around. I don't know... only you, Stanley, and those who worked on the game would know for sure.
#187
Posté 07 février 2010 - 10:07
Lucy Glitter
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Thanks for clearing that up, Mr. Woo. Us forumites really love you guys deep down. Really.
Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 07 février 2010 - 10:09 .
#188
Posté 07 février 2010 - 10:21
LokiHades
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Lucy_Glitter wrote...
Thanks for clearing that up, Mr. Woo. Us forumites really love you guys deep down. Really.
Besides what I said earlier, this.
No ill judgement to Mr. Woo, as I saw the context of which said comments were posted (I was browsing the forums at the time). Though I am still upset they didn't stick by their original statement. Words can be very powerful, as you can see here.
#189
Posté 07 février 2010 - 10:56
HaloKT
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I don't need pixel nudity. I love the Tali romance ending (thank you Youtube, at least I can depend on youTleining wrote...
@ Evil Johnny
do yourself a favor and read the OP, really read and think about it.
Bioware defended the Romance Scenes of ME1: "BioWare maintained it needed to be faithful in depicting adult, intimate relationships without being prurient, but honest. People do get naked, or at least partially naked, to have sex." (OP)
And now in ME2 they don't have that. And the fans who expected Bioware to stand by their previous statements are let down, and suddenly they (the fans) are immature for expecting that.
Again: Bioware has every right to make the game how they want to do it. I like ME2 like it is, but i still wonder why they changed their position on intimate relationships. And so far there has not been an explanation on that, except of course, that fans who wanted that are immature.
) and thought it was pretty much perfect. What I have a problem with is self-censorship out of fear. BioWare didn't refrain from using nudity or same sex romances because it wouldn't fit. They went for the "Teen" treatment so the media wouldn't start calling ME a porn game again. And that's what I'm mad about.
Again, don't care for nudity. I do however care for romances. Since they've been taken away (close to release at that) the game has left me greatly disappointed and not very optimistic about ME3.
#190
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:18
LokiHades
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HaloKT wrote...
I don't need pixel nudity. I love the Tali romance ending (thank you Youtube, at least I can depend on you
What I have a problem with is self-censorship out of fear. BioWare didn't refrain from using nudity or same sex romances because it wouldn't fit. They went for the "Teen" treatment so the media wouldn't start calling ME a porn game again. And that's what I'm mad about.
Again, don't care for nudity. I do however care for romances. Since they've been taken away (close to release at that) the game has left me greatly disappointed and not very optimistic about ME3.
This.
#191
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:27
Rixxencaxx
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My opinion...
Should mass effect 2 or dragon age have shown full nude sex scenes ?
No it is not a porn game
Should masse effect 2 have shown partial nudity in sex scenes or contain the possibility to strip to underwear into the inventory?
Yes, in dragon age we had both and it was ok.
I think that this discussion is between erotic content and porn content....erotic content into a mass consumer game is ok...porn it is not
i don't like morons.....
just my 2 cents
sorry for my english it's not my motherlanguage....
Should mass effect 2 or dragon age have shown full nude sex scenes ?
No it is not a porn game
Should masse effect 2 have shown partial nudity in sex scenes or contain the possibility to strip to underwear into the inventory?
Yes, in dragon age we had both and it was ok.
I think that this discussion is between erotic content and porn content....erotic content into a mass consumer game is ok...porn it is not
i don't like morons.....
just my 2 cents
sorry for my english it's not my motherlanguage....
#192
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:32
tempAE0F
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AlloutAce wrote...
I look forward too the day where sex is more accepted in video games, because, like in movies, sex can potray many elements of a story, besides romantic.
Agreed. I too look forward to the time when video games drop the "for kids stigma," and become true art.
Sadly, with these popular franchises, you will likely continue to see pandering to the lowest common denominator.
#193
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:32
Rixxencaxx
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never understood why for some people it's ok to have real dead or mutilated corpses in tv at launch and then calle them shocked if a spot show a sexy women/men in underwear or partially nude...
#194
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:33
Taiko Roshi
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To the OP get use to Mr Woo's condescending attitude. Its his trademark... I know there is a penis joke somewhere in there but its Mr Woo so just ignore him. Mr Priestly is just as bad. Who can forget that the mediocre PR guy stated that BW was not releasing a console walkthrough of DA:O because people would get "confused" watching it. No real point getting worked up over it, they don't care about you, so why should you care about what they say?
#195
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:39
Stanley Woo
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Okay, the response to other comments in this thread, starting from the top. Dang, it's past 3am already. Next time y'all have questions or concerns about something I said, just shoot me a message or link me to the thread where y'all are talking about me, okay? Here goes...
From Aquilas:
[quote]Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.[/quote]
I'm sorry if you felt my comments were addressed to you or, indeed, anyone who presented their arguments in a professional, civil manner. It is never my intention to treat any of our community members as if they're stupid. Misguided or misinformed, maybe, but never stupid.
[quote]BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice." Seriously?...her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex. Aesthetic choice? Please.[/quote]
Just because you don't believe it or agree with it or like it, does not make it false.
[quote]I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably[/quote]
You might have had more respect, but the cries of "sell out" and "bowing to the almighty dollar" would drown out your kudos. And with that would come the cries of "BioWare cares only about money, not its fans," all refrains we've seen many times in these forums in response to decisions we've made.
From AdrynBliss:
[quote]Personally i'd like to see an apology by mr woo for that comment about immaturity when all a large section of those fans were doing was in fact supporting the principles Bioware themselves set for ME1.[/quote]
My statements were not addressed to everyone who questioned the differences between the love scenes in Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, only a specific subset of those who did not present their arguments as maturely and professionally and logically as others did. If you did feel as if my comments were directed at you, and you were one of the former group, then I apologize wholeheartedly.
From cerberus1701:
[quote]Making a game [is] not a dictatorship no matter what the folks at Bioware have to say about it...because you're trying to get the consumer to buy your product. This means a game designer can't just go off and do anything they want with millions of dollars and thousands of hours.[/quote]
That's right, but no matter what the consumer says, that designer is still the one who has to do the job, and his manager is still the one who will plan his time, and the lead designer still has to schedule his tasks, and the project lead still has an overall vision for the game and its development. Yes, we want the players to like the game, but how many people do you expect to change gears just for you? Developers make all the decisions, and the game the customer picks up is the one the developer made. It was not customized by the player, the player wrote no code for it, drew no characters, and didn't pay any animators a single cent. That's what I mean when I say game development is not a democracy (I'm not sure if I was the one who used "dictatorship" but it's the same principle).
[quote]I've seen more racy stuff in soap operas. Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that they pulled back a bit.[/quote]
This is a bit of a non-argument. Videogames are not soap operas, for one thing, and for another, there is no sex/nudity measurement you can use to determine just how much sex and nudity is appropriate for a given product. Is it because games need more sex and nudity, or that soap operas need less?
From AntiChri5:
[quote]The problem is that Bioware wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nothing vaugely approaching nudity dring sex scenes but you can get your secretary to give you a private half naked dance.[/quote]
I'm sorry, this doesn't even make sense. We decided to have no nudity so instead we put in half-nudity?
From Bendok:
[quote]It's not really about the nude pixels... it's about giving in to the man, so to speak. I think most of us just wanted Bioware to flip the proverbial bird to Fox News, Jack Thompson and the like.[/quote]
That is the absolute wrong reason to put nudity and sex into a game. We have never included controversial material to "flip the proverbial bird" to anyone, nor will we.
From Tleining:
[quote]they call Fans who expected them to stand by that previous statement immature.[/quote]
I'm unsure of where anyone (me especially) referred to someone as "immature." Can you please direct me to a quote or a link? In this thread, the accusation doesn't start until page 2 but runs really quickly from there.
From Yrkoon:
[quote]last I checked he wasn't a dev, but rather, the QA director)[/quote]
I am not, nor have I ever represented myself as, nor claimed to be speaking for, the QA director. On Mass Effect 2, I was working with the QA Story Team.
From tdl84:
[quote][Stanley Woo's] tone was not a professional one. It is his job to deal with people, and apparently he is not always capable of doing so in a polite and professional way, all he did was fan the flames, not put them out.[/quote]
It's funny you should say that. I re-read the original post I made in the forum, and I actually meant it pretty lightly. I honestly don't know how it exploded from there to land here in the land of Stan's-The-Biggest-Jerkface-land. I always try to maintain courtesy and maturity in my dealings with the community without losing my bluntness or my love for our community and our fans.
From diskoh:
[quote]That's how Woo has always been. Condescending, I mean. The guy has never even played Mass Effect (by his own admission). It's best to just ignore his posts about the subject, he doesn't have any insight into the game itself. He is quality assurance, not a dev.[/quote]
It's been a while since I've heard this argument, but I'll respond with a counter-argument. Since very few, if any, people complaining about Mass Effect were game developers, we should have simply ignored their posts about the subject, since they wouldn't have any insight into how games are built? That they are players, not devs?
While I've often been tempted to use this as an argument, I can't possibly be expected to believe that many people have experience with game development. It's not taught in most schools or computer classes, and it's pretty esoteric if you're not technically-oriented and haven't created anything for sale or worked on a multi-million dollar project. So, I no longer use that argument and discourage others from using it, because it's unfair to expect everyone to know what your job entails.
I would also ask why my posts about ME2 should be dismissed so casually. Sure, I only worked on ME1 for a week, but I was on ME2 for 8 months. Should I dismiss our players' comments about the game if they haven't played ME1? Are their praises and criticisms invalid because they didn't pursue a certain romance, or made different choices than you did, or didn't reach a certain arbitrary level? I disagree with you, sir.
Okay, that's the first 4 pages...
From Aquilas:
[quote]Mr. Woo, I don't like being treated as if I'm stupid.[/quote]
I'm sorry if you felt my comments were addressed to you or, indeed, anyone who presented their arguments in a professional, civil manner. It is never my intention to treat any of our community members as if they're stupid. Misguided or misinformed, maybe, but never stupid.
[quote]BioWare has claimed that omitting nudity or partial nudity in Dragon Age: Origins was an "aesthetic choice." Seriously?...her lovemaking attire was more modest than her walking-around clothes—she had to dress up to have sex. Aesthetic choice? Please.[/quote]
Just because you don't believe it or agree with it or like it, does not make it false.
[quote]I’d have much more respect if BioWare just flatly stated it abandoned nudity or partial nudity in ME2 because it wanted to enhance ME2’s profitably[/quote]
You might have had more respect, but the cries of "sell out" and "bowing to the almighty dollar" would drown out your kudos. And with that would come the cries of "BioWare cares only about money, not its fans," all refrains we've seen many times in these forums in response to decisions we've made.
From AdrynBliss:
[quote]Personally i'd like to see an apology by mr woo for that comment about immaturity when all a large section of those fans were doing was in fact supporting the principles Bioware themselves set for ME1.[/quote]
My statements were not addressed to everyone who questioned the differences between the love scenes in Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, only a specific subset of those who did not present their arguments as maturely and professionally and logically as others did. If you did feel as if my comments were directed at you, and you were one of the former group, then I apologize wholeheartedly.
From cerberus1701:
[quote]Making a game [is] not a dictatorship no matter what the folks at Bioware have to say about it...because you're trying to get the consumer to buy your product. This means a game designer can't just go off and do anything they want with millions of dollars and thousands of hours.[/quote]
That's right, but no matter what the consumer says, that designer is still the one who has to do the job, and his manager is still the one who will plan his time, and the lead designer still has to schedule his tasks, and the project lead still has an overall vision for the game and its development. Yes, we want the players to like the game, but how many people do you expect to change gears just for you? Developers make all the decisions, and the game the customer picks up is the one the developer made. It was not customized by the player, the player wrote no code for it, drew no characters, and didn't pay any animators a single cent. That's what I mean when I say game development is not a democracy (I'm not sure if I was the one who used "dictatorship" but it's the same principle).
[quote]I've seen more racy stuff in soap operas. Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that they pulled back a bit.[/quote]
This is a bit of a non-argument. Videogames are not soap operas, for one thing, and for another, there is no sex/nudity measurement you can use to determine just how much sex and nudity is appropriate for a given product. Is it because games need more sex and nudity, or that soap operas need less?
From AntiChri5:
[quote]The problem is that Bioware wants to have their cake and eat it too. Nothing vaugely approaching nudity dring sex scenes but you can get your secretary to give you a private half naked dance.[/quote]
I'm sorry, this doesn't even make sense. We decided to have no nudity so instead we put in half-nudity?
From Bendok:
[quote]It's not really about the nude pixels... it's about giving in to the man, so to speak. I think most of us just wanted Bioware to flip the proverbial bird to Fox News, Jack Thompson and the like.[/quote]
That is the absolute wrong reason to put nudity and sex into a game. We have never included controversial material to "flip the proverbial bird" to anyone, nor will we.
From Tleining:
[quote]they call Fans who expected them to stand by that previous statement immature.[/quote]
I'm unsure of where anyone (me especially) referred to someone as "immature." Can you please direct me to a quote or a link? In this thread, the accusation doesn't start until page 2 but runs really quickly from there.
From Yrkoon:
[quote]last I checked he wasn't a dev, but rather, the QA director)[/quote]
I am not, nor have I ever represented myself as, nor claimed to be speaking for, the QA director. On Mass Effect 2, I was working with the QA Story Team.
From tdl84:
[quote][Stanley Woo's] tone was not a professional one. It is his job to deal with people, and apparently he is not always capable of doing so in a polite and professional way, all he did was fan the flames, not put them out.[/quote]
It's funny you should say that. I re-read the original post I made in the forum, and I actually meant it pretty lightly. I honestly don't know how it exploded from there to land here in the land of Stan's-The-Biggest-Jerkface-land. I always try to maintain courtesy and maturity in my dealings with the community without losing my bluntness or my love for our community and our fans.
From diskoh:
[quote]That's how Woo has always been. Condescending, I mean. The guy has never even played Mass Effect (by his own admission). It's best to just ignore his posts about the subject, he doesn't have any insight into the game itself. He is quality assurance, not a dev.[/quote]
It's been a while since I've heard this argument, but I'll respond with a counter-argument. Since very few, if any, people complaining about Mass Effect were game developers, we should have simply ignored their posts about the subject, since they wouldn't have any insight into how games are built? That they are players, not devs?
While I've often been tempted to use this as an argument, I can't possibly be expected to believe that many people have experience with game development. It's not taught in most schools or computer classes, and it's pretty esoteric if you're not technically-oriented and haven't created anything for sale or worked on a multi-million dollar project. So, I no longer use that argument and discourage others from using it, because it's unfair to expect everyone to know what your job entails.
I would also ask why my posts about ME2 should be dismissed so casually. Sure, I only worked on ME1 for a week, but I was on ME2 for 8 months. Should I dismiss our players' comments about the game if they haven't played ME1? Are their praises and criticisms invalid because they didn't pursue a certain romance, or made different choices than you did, or didn't reach a certain arbitrary level? I disagree with you, sir.
Okay, that's the first 4 pages...
#196
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:45
bjdbwea
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There's another angle that was mentioned in one of the other threads. In ME 1, the romances felt much more natural. The (beautifully done) final love scene was believable in the context, which made the unwarranted criticism even worse. In ME 2, BioWare did cave in as far as the depiction is concerned, no doubt about that. On the other hand, the romances feel like they are geared from the beginning towards the final love scene. Almost as if "the scene" with NPCs is laid out as the prize for picking the correct dialogue choices. The Garrus "romance" is the most blatant case of this that I've seen so far. There's nothing else to it, no talk about feelings (if there are any, which I doubt), not even a talk after. To some extent, it's perhaps to BioWare's credit that they didn't make the "prize" even more visual to satisfy those who are playing the game for the "prize."
Modifié par bjdbwea, 07 février 2010 - 11:46 .
#197
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:47
corebit
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Taiko Roshi wrote...
To the OP get use to Mr Woo's condescending attitude. Its his trademark... I know there is a penis joke somewhere in there but its Mr Woo so just ignore him. Mr Priestly is just as bad. Who can forget that the mediocre PR guy stated that BW was not releasing a console walkthrough of DA:O because people would get "confused" watching it. No real point getting worked up over it, they don't care about you, so why should you care about what they say?
If you feel this way, why do you keep posting here on the boards? If you think the mods are so condescending, why stay? Go post in one of the many fan site forums you feel comfortable with, and leave the rest of us "condescending" types.
Oh, and Chris Priestly and Stanley Woo are here to stay. They are not going to change one bit just 'cause some dude on the internet is too thin skinned and misinterprets everything they say.
#198
Posté 07 février 2010 - 11:50
AntiChri5
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Wow, Woo is actually trying to sift through this mountain and answer some of it. That will....take a while.
My point was that i can accept not putting in a love scene with partial nudity, that is an artistic decision. But when there is a secretary who you have all of 3 conversations with that you can get to dance for you in lingerie for no real reason it seems like you are trying to pander to 15 year olds who cant find real porn while not having an intimate love scene.
My point was that i can accept not putting in a love scene with partial nudity, that is an artistic decision. But when there is a secretary who you have all of 3 conversations with that you can get to dance for you in lingerie for no real reason it seems like you are trying to pander to 15 year olds who cant find real porn while not having an intimate love scene.
#199
Posté 07 février 2010 - 12:09
Lucy Glitter
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AntiChri5 wrote...
Wow, Woo is actually trying to sift through this mountain and answer some of it. That will....take a while.
It's also showing that he is awesome imho.
