793 réponses à ce sujet

[corebit]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Wow, Woo is actually trying to sift through this mountain and answer some of it. That will....take a while.

My point was that i can accept not putting in a love scene with partial nudity, that is an artistic decision. But when there is a secretary who you have all of 3 conversations with that you can get to dance for you in lingerie for no real reason it seems like you are trying to pander to 15 year olds who cant find real porn while not having an intimate love scene.

You are one of the few reasonable ones that disagree with how Bioware handled the love scenes. I too believe there is some room for improvement in that area, but more nudity IS NOT THE ANSWER, and Mr. Woo's main response is simply saying that and directing it towards the people who keep demanding that more nudity be added.

[Llandaryn]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Wow, Woo is actually trying to sift through this mountain and answer some of it. That will....take a while.

By the end, he might wish that Bioware, as well as Cerberus, fits all of its employees with molar cyanide pills and optical flash-bangs.

Regardless, I read the first post, sounds like someone with a chip. I'd much prefer it if Bioware would smooth out the romance options, make them feel more natural, less forced, progression from discussion to discussion, rather than adding nudity to the game.

Then again, I'm weird and apparently a minority.

[Archie591]

I have stated this again and again in different threads. The developer has 0 - Zero - obligation to do anything at all concerning us the clients, unless they have explicitly stated otherwise. If they want they can shut down this forum and stop the ME trilogy right here.



I've been working at a Nightclub for 5 years. The same attitude is pretty much everywhere I'd say. People come in and think that because they are the Client - we should go out of our way to please him/her.

Now, seriously?



The client is not the king. Like mentioned before - Democracy doesn't fit into this. No client has any right to meddle in the affairs of developers.

It's a dictatorship where the client is nothing but the person who has been given the privilege to take part in either entertainment, food or service. That does not entitle him or her to demand anything. If the company has promised something outright and failed to deliver - then we would have a reason and the right to complain and demand. Not before.



I thoroughly enjoy throwing people out of the club exactly because of this attitude. "I'm the client so you should all go out of you way to make me feel welcome. Gimme this and gimme that" Please... Whatever face you think a company will lose from such moves is nearly nonexistent compared to the crap we would have to endure if we met the demands of such people.



I'm 100% certain that the gaming industry is no different. Only problem being that you can't kick people out. They are always going to pester you. I wholeheartedly feel for the BIOWARE team.



Hold on guys. Keep making the great games!

[Torhagen]

Considering the missing Romance Scene I am dissapointed in Bioware that the succumbed to the American Doublestandard where killing is ok but by no means any kind of nuditiy or god beware even sex.

I have the feeling that EA is not completely Innocent in that matter.

[Llandaryn]

Yes, I do find the "the customer is always right" attitude to be a pain in the neck.



I'm glad that Bioware listened to the fans after ME1, and kept two well-liked squaddies as crewmates for ME2.



But I dislike how everyone fixates on sex, nudity and romance. On both the spoiler/non-spoiler forums, the threads are liberally strewn everywhere. It makes actual conversation about game content a bit difficult. Why can't we just have one sticky thread entitled "Romance Discussions -- All of them" and then people don't have to go hunting 6 pages back for questions they've asked and other discussions they've had.



Also with the multiple "I hate X/I love X" character threads. Each character only needs one hate/love thread... not multiple.



Gah, now I'm just ranting.



/me gets off soap-box.

[Myt0l1st]

The whole OMG no side boob argument is stupid. Bioware made a great sequel. the romance scene's are tasteful, artistic and brings an end to the romance subplot. That should be all you need

[Stanley Woo]

Here's the remainder of my responses to what was posted up until I was directed to the thread. Again, please remember that you can message us directly to comment on something we've said, or to direct us to a thread where you're talking about or complaining about something we've done or said.



From WilliamShatner:

If Mr. Woo thinks that equates to softcore porn he being hideously flippant and condesending about what his own company achieved with the original game.

ARe you guys having me on? Where did the softcore porn comparison come from?

I'm talking about the artistic merit of the original game's love scene, something Mr. Woo is degrading by his comments.

I'm sorry, but now I'm saying something against Mass Effect 1? I'm sorry, but I don't see where I'm doing this.



From MGIII:

It may not be collaborative, but feedback is certainly very important to developers. Why give us forums if you have a problem with our opinion on a certain thing?

Fan feedback is very important to us, and it's one reason I love our community. Where else can you come and talk to Chris Prieslty about the upcoming NFL game, or ask David Gaider about writing, or give John Winski feedback on certain game features, or talk to Christina Norman about how you played Mass Effect 1?



But the forums has rules, and each and every one of you agreed to abide by those rules when you signed up to participate in our community. Rules such as staying on topic as much as possible, being excellent to each other, and showing some modicum of respect for developers and publishers. It's not your opinions that I will ever have issue with, it's in the way those issues are presented. If an issue is presented constructively and sincerely, you'll rarely see me objecting. If an issue is presented with conspiracy theories, insults, whinging, and swearing, then it's very difficult to deal with constructively. The alternative is to simply not respond to anything, even those subjects of discussion that we as individuals care very much about. As a gamer myself, and a developer who loves what BioWare has done for CRPGs and its community, I usually opt to respond where I can.



From Nathangelion013:

THIS is about Bioware's spokesperson or whatever he is being completely rude to the people who make him and his company money. The dictatorship comment seriously made me want to never support Bioware again.

Hi, that'd be me. You can use my name if you like. ANd now I've read the quote where I do use the word. Still, it's kinda true. Look at it like this.



Your painting of a portrait of Ernest Borgnine is a dictatorship. No matter what your family and friends suggest, no matter what the Walter Matthau fan community says, no matter what Ernest Borgnine says, you may have taken all of their comments into consideration and read the autobiography and even talked to the man, but ultimately, it is you who paints the portrait, you who decides on the colours, the pose, the expression, the composition, even the material you're painting on. That's what makes you the "dictator" of that Ernest Borgnine portrait.



From Kalfear:

Mr Woo seems to hold gamers that disagree with him in a rather ill fashion it seems.

The reports of my jerkfacedness are greatly exaggerated, it seems. Indeed, I've been involved in numerous discussions where I have been disagreed with, sometimes vehemently. This appears to be a gradual escalation of outrage stemming from a misunderstanding and perhaps too much bluntness and honesty on my part.



The hysteria, strawman arguments, doomsaying, armchair developing, sarcasm, and sociopolitical sniping between the two sides isn't helping much, either.



From Tikkidew:

I was bit insulted by the comments of Mr. Woo after I read them. I'm glad someone brought his attitude to light. Someone in EA PR needs to put a leash on that guy. Just him lashing out like that speaks a thousand words. It's obvious what's really going on here.

Actually, it's not at all obvious to me. I'm sorry if I inadvertently insulted you, but could you point out just "what's really going on here"? You didn't clarify.



All right, ladies and gents. It's almost 6am here in Stan-land. I've done a whole lot of reading and writing, but I thought it needed to be addressed. I didn't want this thread exploding into a nuclear fire with me thrown into the centre of it by tomorrow afternoon, which is probably when I'll be awake enough and calm enough to read it again.



Keep it clean and civil in my absence, please, and I'll see you tomorrow... sometime... after I catch up on reading the comments posted while I was reading and writing. Thanks, everyone.

[AdrynBliss]

[quote]Stanley Woo wrote...


From AdrynBliss:


[quote]Personally i'd like to see an apology by mr woo for that comment about immaturity when all a large section of those fans were doing was in fact supporting the principles Bioware themselves set for ME1.[/quote]
My statements were not addressed to everyone who questioned the differences between the love scenes in Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, only a specific subset of those who did not present their arguments as maturely and professionally and logically as others did. If you did feel as if my comments were directed at you, and you were one of the former group, then I apologize wholeheartedly.

[quote]


Way to make me feel bad ;p  But seriously, I'd like to thank Mr Woo for taking the time to respond. God knows six months from now no one is going to give a crap about about an online argument (personally speaking I may well have forgotten all about it in a week or two) but to take the time to engage with the community is a thing far too few in the game industry do, let alone those from a company as 'upscale' as Bioware.

Your responses have helped restore, at the very least, my own faith in Bioware and their employees.
I would just like to apoligize if my own comments seemed heated, that was not the intention.
The only excuse I can offer is that such heated outbursts are often born of emotional attachement, in this case that many of us are long time Bio fans with a great deal of respect and, yes even, love for the hard working folks at Bioware and it's that emotional attachment that bears the most frustration at percieved slights. 

Modifié par AdrynBliss, 07 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[RampantBeaver]

He made those comments just a couple of days ago. I don't really care for the topic, girls look hotter in underwear anyway, but names like Bunky the Wonder Clown and Fancypants the Flying Zebra are priceless. Please continue.

[corebit]

Thank you Stanley Woo for taking the time to respond in such a thorough manner. It shows that you really care for this community despite having your words twisted and taken out of context. Please keep up the good work!!

[Stanley Woo]

Okay, I'm caught up as of AdrynBliss' very lovely response. No apologies required.



I (and the rest of BioWare) am well aware that people feel a little more free to speak their minds here for a number of reasons that have made our community one of the best developer communities out there. To put it simply (because I am soooooo sleepy... 5:56am here):



1. We don't automatically remove all negative comments.

2. Developers actually read so people feel they'll be listened to.

3. Developers actually respond so people want to help as much as possible.



ANd now, good night.

[jienoma]

Good morning all, and good morning Mr. Woo, glad to see you posting about this matter, i'd like to put my personal opinion in this forum using the bad english knowledge i have, so please forgive me for the many errors you'll find in this my short post.

I've always bought Bioware games since Baldur's Gate, not because of blind faith, but because Bioware has been always focused on the story, in fact to me a well constructed plot is more interesting than gameplay.
Of course a good story without gameplay is not what i prefer, but you've always managed to write complex and believable story immersed in a deep enviroment and gameplay, and in my long gamer experience you've been one of the few to be succesful in doing that.

A well rounded and written story can contain a romance plot, i can recall the two books by David Gaider and the "A Song of Ice and Fire" saga by George R.R. Martin, to name the last few books i've read, and your games have been always comparable, to some extent, to well written books, or films if you prefer.

What you've achieved with the first Mass Effect in the romance plot, was something artistically remarkable, thanks to a good writing and an excellent skill of the artists that designed the characters in Mass Effect. I can't honestly see nothing wrong in showing an inch of bare skin when is done with taste and art, i can't understand why such a thing can be considered offending by someone, but everyone is entitled to his own way to intend morality.
In Italy, even with Vatican and the Pope, we tend to be a lot forgiving about nudity, guess we have changed much in the last 50 years, if you happen to visit my country, you've only to turn the TV during the late evening, to see some almost-naked girl dancing around during some of the most succesfull shows whe have here. Violence is less tollerated tough.

Mass Effect 2 gameplay has shifted greatly, i can understand why, even if i prefer the old way, but what touched my nerves was the shallower representation of the story, in my personal hopinion of course, and the more gamey, less artistic way the romance plot ends. It seems to me you were more focused in a shooter enviroment, than in a deep story creation. I can be wrong of course, but that's the impression i've had working my way through the end of the game.

Many of the complaints about the romance ending in Mass Effect 2, were not about the absence of naked breasts or explicit sex action, but focused on the lack of artistical appealing. Believe me when i say that many of us are not interested in something vulgar, but something more aesthetically and artistically pleasing. The first Mass Effect was a step forward, the last one backward.

Last consideration and i'll leave you, the whole "dictatorship" thing was a bit harsh, but true, you can do what you want with your work, you can decide where to go and how to go, but at the same time we, gamers, will decide the success of your products. Bioware become one of the greatest game developer thanks to the skills of its writers, artists, game designers and programmers, i probably understand where you want to go with your games, but try not to loose the many things that made your products the best in their genre.

Thanks for your attention,
Alessandro.

[SL22]

Do people honestly feel strongly about not seeing about two seconds of skin?

[Archie591]

SL22 wrote...

Do people honestly feel strongly about not seeing about two seconds of skin?

 I have noticed that the main problems that people have with ME2 are:

Not enough ******
No crouch
Not enough haristyles to choose from

 Well, that's about it.

Kinda makes you wonder if these people have nothing better to do...

[Mordaedil]

Hi Stan.

We know eachother from way back.

I think a lot of people are new to the boards and aren't quite used to you and don't really understand what a great person you really are, but I've come to understand you better over the last... What's it been now, five or six years?

I understand the move to the Social site did put some stress on you since you seemed really exhausted the first few weeks after the move and I understand some of these comments were maybe made in that period of time (although you were rather stressed out during the release of ME1 for the PC too, I understand).

Still, I don't intend to write this as a form of butt-licking. Goodness knows you don't need it. I'm just expressing my feelings when I saw the topic and was about to close it and not post here until I saw your replies.

I know if I were in your shoes, I'd feel a bit miffed when my jokes fall flat and get taken as actual statements meant to be taken seriously.

[Raible]

Boys will be boys and game forums will be game forums, but I'd like to suggest to those who get upset about this to stop for a moment and think about some ulterior reasons why someone might act in a certain way.

Just two possibilities why the intimacy-scenes might've turned out a bit shallow:

- They are just affairs and it should still be reasonably believable when you get back together with the ME1 characters for a grand finale in ME3 (hopefully even grander if you didn't go looking for boobs in ME2).

- If there's nudity in one character's scene there pretty much would've needed to be nudity in all. This would especially pose a problem for those characters with a (for now) more mysterious physique, perhaps to only be revealed in ME3.

Both motives which devs wouldn't state outright for various reasons, so all this discussing about lack of nudity without the proper but hidden context is very likely rather useless. The devs know why they did it but are extremely unlikely to tell anyone, end of story.

Modifié par Raible, 07 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[PSUHammer]

Legbiter wrote...

All these threads remind me of Japanese guys nerd-raging on the size and shape of the censorship pixels in Japanese adult entertainment.

I havent' read the entire thread (because it is just tiring) but I am no prude.  I disagree with the cultures "obsession with violence but sex is taboo" scenarios....BUT, immediately saying because a VIDEO GAME developer didn't include pixelated nudity in their games was somehow bending to the will of the media, is just absurd.  Maybe they are trying to reach a broader audience?  Maybe the nudity would not add to the narrative of the story?

It's artistic license and arguing over it is NERD-RAGE!

[Killian Kalthorne]

Only thing I want in a game or game series is that they are consistent throughout the game or game series and make sense. May that be story plot, rules system, or style and presentation.



The transition from ME1 to ME2, specifically its rules system, made no sense and it is as far from being consistent as possible. Its like a person who has played 1e ADnD and jump them into 4e. Same with the romance in DA. Just how many people actually have sex with their underwear on? Makes no sense.



All I ask for is my games be entertaining, make sense, and be consistent. No more and no less.

[jamskinner]

I think this whole topic is a joke. If you compare ME1 to ME2, ME2 has a lot more(mature) content in it then the first game. Yet we have people complaining that is doesn't have enough.



Months ago I asked about adding some type of optionall cussing filter to the game. I was told by Mr. Woo it was probably not possible this late in the game. Guess what, we don't always get what we want. It's not that Bioware wants to screw us over it is just that they can not cature to each of us.



By the way I do hope they add some type of optional language filter to the last game.

[tinfish]

jpetrey123 wrote...

i dont think you realize just how many of those threads there has been. if you people want nudity look at porn or watch HBO. i mean seriously they are pixels!!!

And you are comparing pixels to porn why ?
Your proof they were right to remove it, some folks cannot tell the difference between a bit of skin and porn.

[ShuttleXpC]

I'm still thoroughly disgusted with some of your responses Woo. I honestly wouldn't have thought twice about your comment, but you quoting OBVIOUS troll attempts (when you made that last blatantly false argument about developers having a dictatorship) by the user arguing in favor of better romance scene proves (at least in my view) that you were making those comments to spite the guy because he a hit nerve.

So, what I really got out of the whole ordeal was two people arguing like children. I expect much better from someone in a position of authority, compared to some 12 year old whining about the game while insulting Bioware.

Modifié par ShuttleXpC, 07 février 2010 - 03:15 .

[cowboy4lyf06]

This is such a long and at times useless arguement. As for the game itself, we can almost all agree ME1 love scene was tastefully done to the point where player didn't give a second thought to the scene then other then oh I really feel that these 2 characters feel for each other because through partial nudity Bioware created a fluid movement that acted in the same way a well written classical senotia would. When the love scenes in ME2 were done it's obvious the whole partial nudity controversy arose and the resulting critisms that resulted. That being said many of the interactions in the actual love scenes were done well, though room for improvement always exist, but some in my opinion, such with shepard and miranda felt a little cold. There wasn't that same player connection to the scene as there was in ME1, so there is room for blame in both camps. On the player side there will always be those who you will never be able to please, and on the developer side more animation, even without nudity, could have been used to try and give the same connection they had given as mentioned before. I'm sorry but seeing Miranda's uder wear for a whole 3 seconds doesn't make me care whole lot like a good ol'e their might actually be something here kind of scene.



Clearly with blame to be shared on both sides self censorship should always be something publishers are careful about because they end up with a product that is kind of well empty when they actually wanted more.

[thompsonaf]

:ph34r:EDIT: [spam image removed by Moderator]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 07 février 2010 - 08:27 .

[National_Cause]

The things people get upset about....