60 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hammer28]

gatekeeper780 wrote...

When you are in the fade saving Connor, you make a deal with the demon instead of killing her.

Your main has to be a mage as well. Meaning, if you send Morrigan or Wynn, it won't work.

[weredog717]

traveller_ wrote...

As a proud blood mage, I resent people saying we are evil.

Considering what you have to do do in order to BECOME a blood mage you might have a pretty hard time trying to prove your point...

So you sacrifice a child and his mom who cares

[Lakmoots]

Well...

1) There have been Warden Blood Mages... even Duncan says he thinks Blood Magic would be "something to consider" in the fight against Darkspawn.

However, they are not "legally" entitled to anything, and would be hunted by a Templar anyway. They use it as they use anything - to defeat Darkspawn, regardless of personal cost.

2) Uh... Jowan is famous because he was dropped as a companion. He was going to be at one point - the only reason he was dropped is they figured he was too whiney in his current state, and had other companions whose role he would have overlapped.

It was his personality that was the biggest issue!

[soccer194]

Uh you guys are all saying well look at what you have to be a blood mage but they might have changed it but u dodnt need to ask the demon to be a blood mage. I just made another mage and hes a blood mage and hasn't even gone to recliffe yet. I think my mage got it from picking something off a dead blood mage in Lothering right when I was about to leave.

[traveller_]

I don't worship demons and sacrifice the blood of virgins to them.

Actually... it's what you did. Or do you think that connor may not have been a virgin?

I do see your point but I think it can be a matter of perspective.

Well, I have no doubt that's what an evil character would say.  I am not saying that you character is evil because he made a pact with the demon, I am saying that your character is evil because of the specific pact he did. You may call it "grey" as much as want, but I can't imagine of many crimes blacker than selling a child's soul.

Modifié par traveller_, 11 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[traveller_]

Uh you guys are all saying well look at what you have to be a blood mage but they might have changed it but u dodnt need to ask the demon to be a blood mage. I just made another mage and hes a blood mage and hasn't even gone to recliffe yet. I think my mage got it from picking something off a dead blood mage in Lothering right when I was about to leave.

That's not the reason. The reason you can select a blood mage without having been in redcliffe is that once the specialization has been unlocked it STAYS unlocked across gameplays, like achievements do. I have recovered an older position of my mage, where I have not yet gone to the dalish, ashes, orzammar, etc, and I have already unlocked EVERYTHING I had in the older game, despite the fact that in the savegame I didn't find the arcane warrior filactery, nor bedded/cheated isabela, nor gained the champion of redcliffe title from arle eamon, nor encountered oghren for berserker, etc, etc...

BUT, if you turn your mage into a blood mage the epilogue will make sure that connor is still possessed by the demon, no matter how you dealt with the demon in the actual gameplay (this has been tested). I didn't test it for the destroyer, but it would be an interesting test.

[traveller_]

So you sacrifice a child and his mom who cares

I am pretty sure nobody evil would.

[soccer194]

well thats interesting didnt know that thanks for the info.

[guytza]

Think of it this way, Grey Warden (which most people who arent loghain associate as badarse archdemon stompers) who is a mage (can make your head go all kabloomey by wiggling fingers and then walking away) and reveals that they are a blood mage (who can control your mind and/or make your blood turn into a source of extreme pain) is having a conversation with you.



Yeah, I'm not gonna make an issue of it.



As the sergeant in Denerim says "And people actually voluntarily attack you? Are they just stupid?"

[IanPolaris]

traveller_ wrote...BUT, if you turn your mage into a blood mage the epilogue will make sure that connor is still possessed by the demon, no matter how you dealt with the demon in the actual gameplay (this has been tested). I didn't test it for the destroyer, but it would be an interesting test.

I don't think that's right.  If your coercion skill is high enough, then you can be a Bloodmage and tell the Demon to go away for get.  You need four ranks in that skill to pull it off.  IIRC, if you do, then Conner is fine.

-Polaris

[traveller_]

traveller_ wrote...BUT, if you turn your mage into a blood mage the epilogue will make sure that connor is still possessed by the demon, no matter how you dealt with the demon in the actual gameplay (this has been tested). I didn't test it for the destroyer, but it would be an interesting test.

I don't think that's right.  If your coercion skill is high enough, then you can be a Bloodmage and tell the Demon to go away for get.  You need four ranks in that skill to pull it off.  IIRC, if you do, then Conner is fine.

-Polaris

So, let me understand, you are saying that it is possible to unlock the blood mage specialization WITHOUT striking a bargain with the demon? I didn't check that, admittedly, but it would be nice for those trying to RP "good" blood mages. Actually if that were true I could get as far as reloading a previous position and replay the game from there giving blood magic to my AW (I mean, shapeshifter is useless, and very redundant with AW to boot, while the healer's cleansing aura is incompatible with shimmering shield)...

What I know however is this: before finishing the game I unlocked blood magic by bargaining with the demon, but never saved the position; shortly before the final I gave the unlocked blood magic to wynne, just to test it, and in the epilogue arl eamon talks like I had bargained with the demon, despite the fact that in the saved game I never had. Of this I am 100% sure.

[IanPolaris]

traveller_ wrote...

So, let me understand, you are saying that it is possible to unlock the blood mage specialization WITHOUT striking a bargain with the demon? I didn't check that, admittedly, but it would be nice for those trying to RP "good" blood mages. Actually if that were true I could get as far as reloading a previous position and replay the game from there giving blood magic to my AW (I mean, shapeshifter is useless, and very redundant with AW to boot, while the healer's cleansing aura is incompatible with shimmering shield)...

What I know however is this: before finishing the game I unlocked blood magic by bargaining with the demon, but never saved the position; shortly before the final I gave the unlocked blood magic to wynne, just to test it, and in the epilogue arl eamon talks like I had bargained with the demon, despite the fact that in the saved game I never had. Of this I am 100% sure.

That is an affirmative. and I have tested this several times.  Point in fact you do negotiate with the Demon, but it's an entirely different sort of negotiation.  If you have three ranks of Coercion, you can force the demon to abandon Conner without a fight for good.  If you have four ranks of Coercion, you can also force the Demon to give you a favor on a successful intimidate check as though you had bargined with her without forfeiting Conner's soul.

This only works for Magi with extremely high Coercion skills.

As for the conversation with Arl Eamon, if you mean, "Have you noticed that Conner seems quiet lately", you get that (IMX anyway) no matter what you do (as long as you let the boy live anyway).  However, in the epilog you find that Conner passes his Harrowing with flying colors and goes to Tevinter to research the beings of the fade.

-Polaris

[spottyblanket]

2) Uh... Jowan is famous because he was dropped as a companion. He was going to be at one point - the only reason he was dropped is they figured he was too whiney in his current state, and had other companions whose role he would have overlapped.

It was his personality that was the biggest issue!

Everyone in the game seems whingy to me  in some way or another. Besides, who honestly--besides Dog--out of all your companions has a perfect personlity? I thought characters were supposed to grow over time...that is the main appeal of them?

off topic: stupid question--but how do you quote??!

[traveller_]

As for the conversation with Arl Eamon, if you mean, "Have you noticed that Conner seems quiet lately", you get that (IMX anyway) no matter what you do (as long as you let the boy live anyway).

That is not what the toolset tells me. There is a dialogue to be used when you did NOT strike a bargain with the demon. Of course there might be a bug of some kind somewhere that stops that dialogue to be selected. Now that you pointed out the negoatiotion with the demon I think I will spend some time reading it through too... :-)

However, in the epilog you find that Conner passes his Harrowing with flying colors and goes to Tevinter to research the beings of the fade.

Not in mine.

Modifié par traveller_, 12 février 2010 - 09:35 .

[IanPolaris]

traveller_ wrote...

As for the conversation with Arl Eamon, if you mean, "Have you noticed that Conner seems quiet lately", you get that (IMX anyway) no matter what you do (as long as you let the boy live anyway).

That is not what the toolset tells me. There is a dialogue to be used when you did NOT strike a bargain with the demon. Of course there might be a bug of some kind somewhere that stops that dialogue to be selected. Now that you pointed out the negoatiotion with the demon I think I will spend some time reading it through too... :-)

I don't know what to tell you.  I've killed the demon myself, I've had party mages do it, I've negotiated with the demon, and I've intimidated it.  I get the same conversation from Arl Eamon (about Conner being quiet) in all cases.

However, in the epilog you find that Conner passes his Harrowing with flying colors and goes to Tevinter to research the beings of the fade.

Not in mine.

I don't know what to tell you (save that I am using the PC version which may make a difference).  I get the "Passed Harrowing with flying colours" every time with Conner EXCEPT when I negotiate with the Demon.  If I intimidate the demon, I also get the "good" ending for Conner in the Epilog.

Perhaps you have a bugged game?  I know not.

-Polaris

[traveller_]

I don't know what to tell you.  I've killed the demon myself, I've had party mages do it, I've negotiated with the demon, and I've intimidated it.  I get the same conversation from Arl Eamon (about Conner being quiet) in all cases.

My question is: have you chosen blood magic as your specialization in all the playthroughs? Or you haven't taken it up in some of them?

I don't know what to tell you (save that I am using the PC version which may make a difference).

Since I am using the toolset I could hardly have a console version.

I get the "Passed Harrowing with flying colours" every time with Conner EXCEPT when I negotiate with the Demon.  If I intimidate the demon, I also get the "good" ending for Conner in the Epilog.

Perhaps you have a bugged game?  I know not.

More likely is that I specd some of my chars in blood magic (unlocked by bargaining), I think. I will have to read better the dialogue with the deamon and the epilogue to check what happens, which variables are set, and stuff...

IF I find out something I will let you know.

[IanPolaris]

traveller_ wrote...

I don't know what to tell you.  I've killed the demon myself, I've had party mages do it, I've negotiated with the demon, and I've intimidated it.  I get the same conversation from Arl Eamon (about Conner being quiet) in all cases.

My question is: have you chosen blood magic as your specialization in all the playthroughs? Or you haven't taken it up in some of them?

Most of them (if I was playing a mage at all).  When I play a support mage, I almost always take SH+BM for the spellpower boost alone.  I can confidently say that over 80% of the mages I have played are Bloodmages of one sort or another.  BM is just that good.

....and yes, I have gotten the "good" Conner ending in almost all of them (unless I explicitly negotiated...not intimidated but negotiated....with the Demon).

I don't know what to tell you (save that I am using the PC version which may make a difference).

Since I am using the toolset I could hardly have a console version.

I don't know what to tell you except that you are mistaken.  I know this based directly on my own play.

I get the "Passed Harrowing with flying colours" every time with Conner EXCEPT when I negotiate with the Demon.  If I intimidate the demon, I also get the "good" ending for Conner in the Epilog.

Perhaps you have a bugged game?  I know not.

More likely is that I specd some of my chars in blood magic (unlocked by bargaining), I think. I will have to read better the dialogue with the deamon and the epilogue to check what happens, which variables are set, and stuff...

IF I find out something I will let you know.

Fair enough.  My own experience is that you only get the "bad" Conner ending if you explicitly negotiated with the demon (whatever you got).  If you did not, then you get the "good" Conner ending whether or not you are a bloodmage.

-Polaris

[traveller_]

Fair enough.  My own experience is that you only get the "bad" Conner ending if you explicitly negotiated with the demon (whatever you got).  If you did not, then you get the "good" Conner ending whether or not you are a bloodmage.

Last question: is your ending sacrificing yourself? Or living afterwards? A mix of both?

[traveller_]

Well, I had a nice dive in the toolset, and found some interesting things.



1) According to the comment in the dialogue the odd sentence from eamon about connor SHOULD be said only when the player has an agreement with the demon. However, the condition seems to have a TRUE value in it instead of a FALSE one. In essence, it's probably a bug. I tend to think that if you make the deal with the demon eamon will NOT say anything about connor. Again, a bug.



2) From what you said it is clear that in your endings you have ditched alistair (you are a bad, bad person). The sentences about connor in the epilogue show only if eamon get back to redcliff.



Anyway it is nice to have the ability to get blood magic without striking any bargain, but I wonder how decent it is in terms of RP lore.

[IanPolaris]

traveller_ wrote...

Fair enough.  My own experience is that you only get the "bad" Conner ending if you explicitly negotiated with the demon (whatever you got).  If you did not, then you get the "good" Conner ending whether or not you are a bloodmage.

Last question: is your ending sacrificing yourself? Or living afterwards? A mix of both?

Sorry about the late reply.  The answer is both.

-Polaris

[sabreene]

traveller_ wrote...

Well, I had a nice dive in the toolset, and found some interesting things.

1) According to the comment in the dialogue the odd sentence from eamon about connor SHOULD be said only when the player has an agreement with the demon. However, the condition seems to have a TRUE value in it instead of a FALSE one. In essence, it's probably a bug. I tend to think that if you make the deal with the demon eamon will NOT say anything about connor. Again, a bug.

2) From what you said it is clear that in your endings you have ditched alistair (you are a bad, bad person). The sentences about connor in the epilogue show only if eamon get back to redcliff.

Anyway it is nice to have the ability to get blood magic without striking any bargain, but I wonder how decent it is in terms of RP lore.

The dialog from Eamon must be a bug, as I got it before I even unlocked the Blood Mage specialization (still haven't unlocked it). I also got it on a playthrough where I did a double intimidation on the demon, not to get the BM spec, but to get an extra spell point. I'm actually glad to find it is probably a bug -- I thought it meant that there were lingering effects from the possession.

The ending card about Connor also shows up if you keep Alistair but don't make him king. At least it does if you travel with Alistair, or make the sacrifice w/o Alistair being king (in female character endings, no experience as a male character). For both of those endings the Arl goes back to Redcliffe.

[traveller_]

The dialog from Eamon must be a bug,

It must be. The dev comment is pretty clear in saying that it should appear only if you traded connor's soul.

The ending card about Connor also shows up if you keep Alistair but don't make him king. At least it does if you travel with Alistair,

Yep. Any case in which anora is not sole ruler and the player is not chancellor lead to eamon staying to denerim.

[DJ0000]

traveller_ wrote...

I don't worship demons and sacrifice the blood of virgins to them.

Actually... it's what you did. Or do you think that connor may not have been a virgin?

I do see your point but I think it can be a matter of perspective.

Well, I have no doubt that's what an evil character would say.  I am not saying that you character is evil because he made a pact with the demon, I am saying that your character is evil because of the specific pact he did. You may call it "grey" as much as want, but I can't imagine of many crimes blacker than selling a child's soul.

Good point about Connor, I didn't think about that actually.

I personally think the ends do justify the means. My concern is the blight, it's not my job to save Conner from possesion, my job is to stop the blight. Warden's do what they have to do and I believe it had to be done. For the greater good.

[Matheau]

DJ0000 wrote...

Good point about Connor, I didn't think about that actually.

I personally think the ends do justify the means. My concern is the blight, it's not my job to save Conner from possesion, my job is to stop the blight. Warden's do what they have to do and I believe it had to be done. For the greater good.

I'm not sure if ends justify the means applies in this situation. You are giving a demon the chance to potentially possess the potential future Erl of Redcliffe in exchange for a few more spells that ultimately cannot actually kill the Archdemon. You also could potentially alienate the Templars, Circle of Mages, Chantry, and some other organizations just for using those spells.

Most of the game is specifically spent gathering allies to be able to confront the darkspawn, not training to be able to single handedly kill the entire spawn yourself. Blood Mage from an ends justify the means seems to be a negative, not positive choice. If "Kill Archdemon" or "Dark Ritual" were talents in the Blood Mage line you would have a point, but long term wise it hurts the Grey Warden goal more than helps it.

Though, I definitely will concede if there were still a few hundred Grey Wardens in Ferelden, one practicing Blood Magic would not have these negative reprecussions.

[Xionraserai]

sad you cant make use the "right of transcription" in dragon age ... but then you would have a pool of thousands of ppl in your party XD

bioware yould have made it like you can add 9 ppl to your pt but there are like 20 to choose from by using the trancription right but that would be way to much work to synchronize all of them and so on >.>