60 réponses à ce sujet

[Feops1]

Matheau wrote...
I'm not sure if ends justify the means applies in this situation. You are giving a demon the chance to potentially possess the potential future Erl of Redcliffe in exchange for a few more spells that ultimately cannot actually kill the Archdemon. You also could potentially alienate the Templars, Circle of Mages, Chantry, and some other organizations just for using those spells.

Most of the game is specifically spent gathering allies to be able to confront the darkspawn, not training to be able to single handedly kill the entire spawn yourself. Blood Mage from an ends justify the means seems to be a negative, not positive choice. If "Kill Archdemon" or "Dark Ritual" were talents in the Blood Mage line you would have a point, but long term wise it hurts the Grey Warden goal more than helps it.

Though, I definitely will concede if there were still a few hundred Grey Wardens in Ferelden, one practicing Blood Magic would not have these negative reprecussions.

If the blood magic spells help in the warden's quest to end the blight, then yes, they do assist in slaying the arch demon. Alienating various groups is unfortunate but secondary in the goal of defeating the blight. The demon already promises to come back "much later" which means it is a zero impact on the current situation with the blight. It will certainly come back later to a rather negative effect, but nowhere near the damage the blight would have done.

[IanPolaris]

DJ0000 wrote...
Good point about Connor, I didn't think about that actually.

I personally think the ends do justify the means. My concern is the blight, it's not my job to save Conner from possesion, my job is to stop the blight. Warden's do what they have to do and I believe it had to be done. For the greater good.

Except you don't at least not necessarily.  Once you're there, you're sole goal is to get Arl Eamon on his feet.  Given that resolving the situation takes priority, and as I said earlier this thread you don't have to cut a deal with the Demon to get blood-magic.  If your Coercion is high enough you can force her to give it to you in exchange for her life.

-Polaris

[Vicious]

Fun fact: If you become a blood mage, Wynne is supposed to turn against you in camp. It is all in the vanilla game, however all the scripts and dialogue have been disabled by Bioware.

You can re-enable them through mods if you are curious.

The lines were even recorded! 

Either they ran out of time or someone decided it made no sense since Grey Wardens are certainly allowed to be blood mages, or it made Wynne simply insufferable seeing as how she can turn against you the second you rescue her circle and go to camp. Or a combination of those reasons.


Anyway fun fact over. No, she says nothing in the vanilla game.

Modifié par Vicious, 15 février 2010 - 02:01 .

[Sabriana]

Connor will never be the future Arl of Redcliffe. Mages cannot inherit titles, nor can they rule any lands.

[sylvanaerie]

Intresting discussion here. My two cents worth:



No way can i see anyone arguing the ends justifies the means when you consider this point. The soul you are bargaining away is that of a innocent CHILD who has no say in the matter, its left in your hands. If it were your OWN soul I'd say maybe sure its a gray area. But giving away Connor for the convenience of having blood magic for yourself doesn't seem like anything other than evil to me.

[DJ0000]

IanPolaris wrote...

DJ0000 wrote...
Good point about Connor, I didn't think about that actually.

I personally think the ends do justify the means. My concern is the blight, it's not my job to save Conner from possesion, my job is to stop the blight. Warden's do what they have to do and I believe it had to be done. For the greater good.

Except you don't at least not necessarily.  Once you're there, you're sole goal is to get Arl Eamon on his feet.  Given that resolving the situation takes priority, and as I said earlier this thread you don't have to cut a deal with the Demon to get blood-magic.  If your Coercion is high enough you can force her to give it to you in exchange for her life.

-Polaris

From what I've seen you can either intimidate her or get blood magic. I may be wrong but I haven't seen anything to suggest that you get blood magic without dealing with her.

And regarding Eamon, my job is to save HIM, not Connor. I don't need Connor for anything, not to save Eamon, not to save the blight.

It is not my responsibility to ensure his safety, all I need is Eamon. Connor was the one who let the demon posses him, it's his fault and I am under no obligation to help him. His soul was lost before I arrived.

Modifié par DJ0000, 15 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[DJ0000]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Intresting discussion here. My two cents worth:

No way can i see anyone arguing the ends justifies the means when you consider this point. The soul you are bargaining away is that of a innocent CHILD who has no say in the matter, its left in your hands. If it were your OWN soul I'd say maybe sure its a gray area. But giving away Connor for the convenience of having blood magic for yourself doesn't seem like anything other than evil to me.

Just because he's a child, doesn't mean he's innocent. He allowed himself to be possesed by a demon making him less than blameless in the situation. I don't believe that he should get preferential treatment just because he's a child. The whole situation was his fault to start with and I have no reason feel as though I need to help him.

He may just be a child but everyone must face the consequences of their decisions at some point. The consequences scale with the level of the mistake. Most kids spill juice on the floor he let a demon posses him so obviously the consequences are much greater for him than a normal child.

[Shadvox]

Off-thread topic but not the posts, still a question.

How many having issue with a play-through choice of dealing/intimidation away Connor's demon took gold over revenge (the latter gaining you nil loot) when it came to Asunder?

[traveller_]

From what I've seen you can either intimidate her or get blood magic. I may be wrong but I haven't seen anything to suggest that you get blood magic without dealing with her.

By reading the dialogue in the toolset I can confirm that it is possible. After you grant the demon its life there is a second intimidation check, very difficult (I am not sure you can pass it even with 4 coercion unless you have also high str), but if you pass it the demon grants you a boon in exchange for its life. Though, since unlocks are permanent I would probably go for the extra spell... :-)

I am doing another playthrough and I will test it as soon as i get 4 coercion.

[DJ0000]

Shadvox wrote...

Off-thread topic but not the posts, still a question.
How many having issue with a play-through choice of dealing/intimidation away Connor's demon took gold over revenge (the latter gaining you nil loot) when it came to Asunder?

I used to kill the Fade Beast for fun when not really concentrating on RPing but lately I find that I take the reward which is more in charecter as I tend to be okay dealing with demons for a reasonable reward.

These two are the only two that I ever consider dealing with. Even then I don't always take the deals.

[balmung03]

Just a thought for all those who are saying that it's horrible to bargain with Connor's life to gain the specialization (or any other reward for that matter):

As long as you don't end up sacrificing yourself at the end, what's to stop you from seeking out the demon when it comes back and finishing it off? You still kept your end of the bargain, taking a boon for allowing the demon to possess Connor later on; however, you never said you wouldn't slay her as soon as she did re-possess him. Especially if you're playing an evil or good pragmatist character, double-crossing someone evil to gain a benefit fits in quite nicely.

Edit: whoops, just saw the timespan b/t the last post and my own.  Apologies if this thread revival was unnecessary; though I do think my point could spark new discussion on the topic, and it probably makes more sense to reply here than to create a new topic and link to this one.

Modifié par balmung03, 15 juillet 2010 - 05:25 .