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[phaonica]

I'm excited any time there is a Loghain convert. And as much as I hate to hijack Maeve_Child's thread, this really is as close as there comes to a Loghain gush thread!

DragonRacer13  wrote...
1. Why does Loghain dislike the Grey Wardens so much?

My take on it is this: according to their reputation, the Grey Wardens will do *anything* to stop a Blight. They say that they don't meddle in politics, but they clearly do. The Wardens had been banished from Ferelden for hundreds(?) of years for meddling in Ferelden politics (which is covered in the Warden's Keep DLC), and when the Warden's were allowed back into Ferelden the first thing they did was convince King Maric to leave Denerim to go with them into the Deep Roads (which is covered in The Calling). It is also not unreasonable to believe that if the Wardens thought they needed to make a deal with Orlais to stop the Blight, that they might be willing to sabotage Ferelden in the deal (Orlais has been known to do this; it's covered in The Calling). Loghain does see them as a potential threat to Ferelden as a sovereign nation. I think there is definitely some shifting the blame involved, because he also sees the Wardens as a good excuse for how Cailan gets *himself* killed at Ostagar.

2. If you recruit Loghain as a Grey Warden, how much time do you actually get to have with him?

Very little. He has a little bit of (very interesting) dialog in camp, then just before the Ritual, and the Ritual itself. He is also fun to take with you if you play Return to Ostagar. And he has an awesome cameo in Awakening, if you have that. Do you play on the PC, by any chance? I'm working on a mod that makes the Landsmeet trigger early so that you can quest with him, but it's taking me some time. It'll be worth it, though!

  Also, when do all these gift maps I can give him start to appear??

I have the info around here somewhere. Edit: nope, I don't after all. I usually don't collect them. I think the chests that have maps in them in Redcliffe are locked, so your PC'd have to have lockpicking or the Lock Bash mod (because after the Landsmeet you can only run around Redcliffe castle solo).

2.b. Related to the above question(s), if I want to have maximum Loghain companion time, would it be prudent (in my next game run-through) to largely skip all non-essential quests and barrel through 

I know of folks who have made a run like this. I'll see if I can find the link to the posts about it...

http://social.biowar...52053/1#2853348

I personally prefer a more natural and less forced run, from an RP perspective. But that's just me

2.c. If I finally get the DLC bought and downloaded before my next run-through, is there a good order to do them in?

This one is hard for me to say. I like taking Alistair with me to do Warden's Keep; I like taking Wynne and Loghain with me for Return to Ostagar; and I haven't done Stone Prisoner yet.

Thanks in advance for helpful replies for the latest potential Loghain fan convert!

Yays!

Modifié par phaonica, 25 juin 2010 - 03:59 .

[nos_astra]

Maeves_Child wrote...
All right haters, see if you can hate him now. I dare you.

Look at his face! He looks like my 4-year-old son when he's mad at me.

[DragonRacer13]

phaonica wrote...

I'm excited any time there is a Loghain convert. And as much as I hate to hijack Maeve_Child's thread, this really is as close as there comes to a Loghain gush thread!

I suppose she would not mind, eh? Nothing but positive - she gets pro-Loghain banter in a confined area, the pride and knowledge of knowing she has created a place for such to flourish, AND it gets her art and fanfiction bumped back near the top. We all win! 

And I finally just recruited him for the first time last night... squee! I should not be having this much fun, surely. Sad to send Alistair off to become a drunk (alas, I failed to harden him, so he renigged on the "marry Anora" alliance), but now I have a shiny new toy to play with when I get off work today! 

My take on it is this: according to their reputation, the Grey Wardens will do *anything* to stop a Blight. They say that they don't meddle in politics, but they clearly do. The Wardens had been banished from Ferelden for hundreds(?) of years for meddling in Ferelden politics (which is covered in the Warden's Keep DLC), and when the Warden's were allowed back into Ferelden the first thing they did was convince King Maric to leave Denerim to go with them into the Deep Roads (which is covered in The Calling). It is also not unreasonable to believe that if the Wardens thought they needed to make a deal with Orlais to stop the Blight, that they might be willing to sabotage Ferelden in the deal (Orlais has been known to do this; it's covered in The Calling). Loghain does see them as a potential threat to Ferelden as a sovereign nation. I think there is definitely some shifting the blame involved, because he also sees the Wardens as a good excuse for how Cailan gets *himself* killed at Ostagar.

That makes sense and I'd never really thought of it that way (I fear my Wardens take things too personally, LOL!  ). I figured some of my confusion was coming from not having gotten any DLCs yet nor read the books yet. I plan on picking the books up tomorrow (because now I just can't get enough Loghain, dammit!) and shall hopefully purchase and download Return to Ostagar (and maybe Warden's Keep) tomorrow as well.

Very little. He has a little bit of (very interesting) dialog in camp, then just before the Ritual, and the Ritual itself. He is also fun to take with you if you play Return to Ostagar. And he has an awesome cameo in Awakening, if you have that. Do you play on the PC, by any chance? I'm working on a mod that makes the Landsmeet trigger early so that you can quest with him, but it's taking me some time. It'll be worth it, though!

I'm on PS3. Unfortunately, it may be a while before I get a new PC that can actually run games (I have almost no experience with PC gaming). But goodness knows I'd love to play around with mods - yours sounds like what I *wish* I could do the next run-through and the thread you linked mentioned someone making a Loghain Romance mod... *sigh* We console folks are so deprived!   Have not gotten Awakenings yet... that's probably gonna be a bit down the road, yet (also considering that it sounds like there's a nasty, game-breaking bug in there involving the Silverite Mines that PS3 has no patch for yet).

I have the info around here somewhere. Edit: nope, I don't after all. I usually don't collect them. I think the chests that have maps in them in Redcliffe are locked, so your PC'd have to have lockpicking or the Lock Bash mod (because after the Landsmeet you can only run around Redcliffe castle solo).

I finally found some more! If it helps: you can buy one in Wonders of Thedas; I believe there is one in a chest in Redcliffe Castle that I must've missed (because I remember my first character finding it, but this second one just missed it somehow); if you rescue Sorin from Howe's dungeon and kill the blood mage that is shipping off the Alienage slaves, you can then buy a map from the little Alienage shop; and there's one in the Warden's warehouse cache where you also get Duncan's Shield. Literally found most of those just last night.

I know of folks who have made a run like this. I'll see if I can find the link to the posts about it...

http://social.biowar...52053/1#2853348

I personally prefer a more natural and less forced run, from an RP perspective. But that's just me  

Oh, I hear you! I've RPed the last two characters, but for "round three" I want to see just how much I can do with Loghain. Sounds like not too many have really explored that in-depth. So, when I crank up my new character next week, it's meta-gaming all the way... I will zip through army-gathering and keep careful track of the sidequests (logging what can wait, what can't, and what needs to be partially done - i.e. take care of the Redcliffe errands, but leave the others un-done). Hopefully in a month or so's time I can have a nice, detailed breakdown/guide for us Loghain-ites.

[phaonica]

That makes sense and I'd never really thought of it that way (I fear my Wardens take things too personally, LOL!  ).

Sometime I think that because it's a video game, I don't take things realistically personally enough, heh.

I figured some of my confusion was coming from not having gotten any DLCs yet nor read the books yet. I plan on picking the books up tomorrow (because now I just can't get enough Loghain, dammit!) and shall hopefully purchase and download Return to Ostagar (and maybe Warden's Keep) tomorrow as well.

A whole lot of a character's understanding of Loghain cannot possibly occur before recruiting him. At that point, recruiting him will almost always be a risk. I assume that most of my character's understanding of Loghain's motives she gathered after recruiting him. Her decision to spare him at the Landsmeet was based on her desire to give him a second chance, which Alistair forced into a decision based on their duty, which my character perceived as being a challenge to her authority.

I'm on PS3. Unfortunately, it may be a while before I get a new PC that can actually run games (I have almost no experience with PC gaming). But goodness knows I'd love to play around with mods - yours sounds like what I *wish* I could do the next run-through and the thread you linked mentioned someone making a Loghain Romance mod... *sigh* We console folks are so deprived!  

Modding is the primary reason I chose to buy the game on the PC instead of console.
Actually, thinking about it, modding is the primary reason I keep my PC semi-up-to-date.
And the Loghain Romance mod is mine, too, heh.  It's also a work in progress.

Have not gotten Awakenings yet... that's probably gonna be a bit down the road, yet (also considering that it sounds like there's a nasty, game-breaking bug in there involving the Silverite Mines that PS3 has no patch for yet).

Yeah, I have been suggesting to anyone that asks not to buy Awakening until a patch comes out. I do like it, but until the developers or the modders are allowed to patch it... I really have to map out exactly where I want to go in order to avoid certain bugs, and because of that, I can't make a non-metagamed run through it. Sucks.

Return to Ostagar and Warden's Keep, and both books, however, are very good and worth the purchase.

[Maeves_Child]

Since Phaonica pretty much covered your questions, I'll refrain from repeating the answers. A lot of my particular fascination with Loghain occurred AFTER reading the books, mostly The Stolen Throne and then replaying the game. There's a lot of subtle, telling emotions and words from Loghain that suddenly make SO much more sense after reading them. I won't go into great detail, since I don't want to spoil the fun, but I've been asked a few times what Loghain was going on about in the Landsmeet about "burn your fields and rape your wives" and I just point at the book.

To me, Loghain is the ultimate Byronic hero -- the hero with the fatal flaw that undoes him. It is, in essense, his undying hatred and fear of Orlais that does him in. That combined with losing so many important people in his life in the name of protecting Ferelden -- it's a wonder he doesn't act more irrationally than he does IMHO.

Most people would fall apart under such duress. Loghain? He soldiers on, refuses to give in and keeps doing what he thinks he must to save Ferelden. His country is the only real love he's ever had, and that's not the sort of thing a man can give up.

I never deny that he's misguided in his actions. But I also know where they come from, so I can understand and forgive them. Everyone is capable of horrible things in the face of fear. It's just a matter of whether or not one is willing to admit it.

Modifié par Maeves_Child, 27 juin 2010 - 06:27 .

[LupusYondergirl]

I really agree about the books completely changing my perspective on Loghain. It turned him from a one-dimentional villan in many ways to one of the most complex characters in the game. Certanly one of the most sympathetic.



I think it's possible to look at him that way, to a degree, within an RP context as well without too much metagaming (if such thing is a worry). It seems perfectly reasonable that a human noble, or even a mage given the tower's extensive library, would be educated about the horrors that went on during the occupation, and far more aware of his role in history. I can easily see someone who grew up looking on him as a hero being uncomfortable with the idea of executing him outright when there was another option available.

[phaonica]

The first time I was playing through DAO, for most of the game, while Loghain was spouting "I'm trying to unite Ferelden to save it!", it just sounded like political rhetoric, to me (though in a significantly different way than Howe obviously preened about titles). I thought to myself, "You can't really preach unity to people when you're the one who divided them in the first place." It comes off as being completely insincere, and he doesn't allow anyone to question him about it.

And then my impression of him totally changed at the Landsmeet.

At some point during the Landsmeet, I started to think... "What if he's right? What if he's sincere?"  He lost the Landsmeet in that playthrough, and I got the "how dare you judge me" speech. At that point, I started *really* thinking about what the Orlesian occupation must have been like, and what he'd been through, and what it meant for him to become the Hero he was known as, the things he must have had to have done, the price that must have been paid. I thought about what he'd been having to deal with there in Ferelden while I'd been off gathering armies; I began to question if killing Cailan was not the right thing to do after all. There was a chance that not only was this man not mad, and not evil, but actually was a sincerely good man who wanted to save Ferelden even more than I did.

So, I had a pretty healthy fascination with him long before I read any of the books or played through any of the DLC. But then I've always had kind of a soft spot for villains in fiction.

Most people would fall apart under such duress. Loghain? He soldiers on, refuses to give in and keeps doing what he thinks he must to save Ferelden.

I remember my character having her conversation with Wynne about how love was selfish, and that it could comprimise my Warden duty against the Blight. I remember being mad at her, mostly because it made me feel like the Warden version of a Tranquil, and being scared that she could be right. Sometimes I feel like Loghain is this person, the person who has the strength(?) to live that kind of life for Ferelden. It sounds like a pretty lonely job. That's part of why I like "Sensible Creatures" so much. To me, it depicts a love for each other *because* they share this understanding of duty-before-love and not despite it.

Modifié par phaonica, 27 juin 2010 - 11:09 .

[Costin_Razvan]

My first playthrough was a DN, and if I could kill my own brother then not only forgive my other brother and make him king then I sure as hell can spare Loghain's life...



For me it was an interesting choice. Having played KOTOR 1 several times and feeling sorry for Malak who Raven ( PC ) had led down a Dark Path I was curios to see what would happen if I sparred the villain.



I got myself a very deep character in my party as a result.

[Maximus741000]

You know, a similar thing happened with my DN, he allowed Bhelen to become king because he knew that Bhelen would prove more effective than Harrowmont, and believed in Aeducan rule at the same time. The DN honestly had Orzammar's best interests at heart; what he wanted was that Orzammar would endure and eventually prosper - and it mirrored Loghain's own love for Ferelden. Which ultimately effected my decision to spare Loghain, because they were likeminded pragmatists who wanted the very best for their country and for a time endured hatered and slander from the people they once fought for.

[Maeves_Child]

Hey all! Just wanted to let you know I haven't let Loghain be . . .still happily on the bandwagon. Even after DA2, which I did love, Loghain is still at the top of my NPC list. I didn't do a lot of anything lately (since I just had a baby IRL) but here's the first in a while -- hopefully not the last.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Oh, my my my. . .linking this in the Loghain appreciation thread ASAP. . .be prepared for loud squeals from Skadi.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Maeves_Child wrote...

Hey all! Just wanted to let you know I haven't let Loghain be . . .still happily on the bandwagon. Even after DA2, which I did love, Loghain is still at the top of my NPC list. I didn't do a lot of anything lately (since I just had a baby IRL) but here's the first in a while -- hopefully not the last.

Now this is how I love to see Loghain. :wub::police: