Aller au contenu

Photo

Why the story of ME2 is an enormous improvement on the story of ME1.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
93 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Eain

Eain
  • Members
  • 1 501 messages
This thread has in part been inspired by another thread (now on Page 2) that discusses the flaws in ME2's story, or rather, it's shortcomings. I found myself disagreeing with most of what's stated there, even though the points in general are valid.

I write this thread as someone who's finished Mass Effect 1 about ten times, and is now on his third playthrough for Mass Effect 2. Let me start with quickly summing up my main problem with Mass Effect 1:

In ME1 the game offered a solid a convincing story, from start to Ilos. Yes, to Ilos. Because Ilos is where the story falls apart due to the biggest plothole that I've encountered so far in gaming. The Conduit is simply a Citadel back door, rather than some Reaper doomsday device. This makes Saren's quest for the Conduit lose any and all meaning, since he already had access to the Citadel's systems before he lost his Spectre status. He risked everything to find something he didn't need at all, and I still can't quite get over how the writers of ME managed to overlook this.

Thankfully, Mass Effect 2 is absent of any such gaping plot holes. Obviously the question could be asked: why a Human-Reaper? What the hell's the point? Thing is that you can easily fill this in with your own imagination: perhaps the Reapers simply enjoy turning their greatest enemies into one of their own. Perhaps this human Reaper's the start of a landbased army, since the lack of one was an obvious shortcoming for them in ME1, having to rely on Saren and the Geth. I noticed many people automatically assumed that his Human-Reaper would be flying about through space with his arms stretched forward and a cape around his neck, Superman style. I find that seriously hard to believe. :lol:

But other than the Human-Reaper, which IMO really isn't a plothole at all, simply a questionable element at worst, ME2's story is rock solid from start to end. ME2 tells the story of the Reapers using their subdued Prothean minions to commence preliminary harvesting of organic life, in compensation for Sovereign's failure at the Citadel. However, nobody knows that these Collectors are Protheans in the first place, or what this harvesting is even for. Or how it can be prevented.

And there you have the key difference between ME1 and ME2. If people say that ME2 lacks a certain level of urgency, they are correct. Because ME2 is not supposed to have urgency. ME2 is about unravelling a mystery, not about preventing the Collectors from destroying all galactic life. The Collectors are -supposed- to be an ominous threat, only sporadically encountered. How strange would it be if nobody really knew what these Collectors were all about, only to have them suddenly appear all over the shop during Shepard's investigation? If we want to talk lack of urgency, then perhaps Dragon Age is a better example, where in the beginning of the game the Darkspawn are built up to be this gigantic threat to Ferelden only to barely encounter them throughout the rest of the game other than in skirmishes.

From where I stand, the Collectors make a great enemy. As the Illusive Man said about the attack on Horizon: This is the most warning we've ever gotten. If there had been more warnings, more often, then Cerberus wouldn't have needed Shepard for the job in the first place. The Alliance would've just waged war on the Collectors.

Throughout the entire game I felt like I was left with the feeling that the Collectors were plotting their next move while I was assembling my team, and that it was simply a matter of time until I ran into them again. And it was.

There is no sense of urgency because the Collectors aren't on the verge of wiping out all human life in the colonies. They've abducted many, yes, but obviously not enough for the Alliance to care yet. That's why Shepard is required to investigate. Truth be told, all the urgency you could possibly want from ME2 is masterfully delivered to you in the final 10 seconds of the game. I mean, how awesome was -that- part? My jaw dropped.

In conclusion, I think ME1's story fell seriously short. It sent you on a wild goose chase around the galaxy to find something that only lead to where your quest basically began. It made me seriously wonder what the hell the point of all the quests in between was in the first place. Mass Effect 2 is clear cut: Build a team strong enough to deal with what may lie beyond the Omega 4 relay, so that we can solve the Collector question in the absence of the Alliance. The war has died down, the threat seems to have vanished, but you know better. You -know- the end of all organic life is still impending, but it obviously isn't here yet since otherwise the Collectors wouldn't have been needed in the first place. This alone implies time and leeway. That's the setup of ME2, and it works great.

#2
Nautica773

Nautica773
  • Members
  • 600 messages
There aren't any plot holes in ME2, because there's almost no plot.

#3
the_devils_aid

the_devils_aid
  • Members
  • 156 messages
hi guy. you may be missing the point about the conduit



saren practically took over the citadel. he needed the back door to do so. sovereign knew that saren and his geth army would NEVER succeed in taking the citadel in a frontal attack, because they would just close it.



this makes the conduit a doomsday weapon. with it saren bypasses the citadels main defense (closing it) and can take control with an entire army.



only someone who cant read above a 3rd grade level would say that it lost all meaning because it was a backdoor into the citadel no-one knew about

#4
Nautica773

Nautica773
  • Members
  • 600 messages
Well now, there is a bit of a problem with the plot. If the sole reason for the back door was to gain access so Saren could open the Citadel for Sovereign, he didn't need a Geth army to do that. He could have waited until Sovereign's approach and kept the Citadel from closing since he already had access.



I feel, however, that Sovereign didn't know what the Conduit was until much later in the game once Saren's hand had been played, thus necessitating the use of the Conduit since he wouldn't have access to the Citadel anymore. This isn't stated explicitly in the game, so it's impossible to know the true intentions of the writer. It's not a gaping plot hole by any stretch, but it is something to give pause.

#5
Mox Ruuga

Mox Ruuga
  • Members
  • 1 825 messages

Nautica773 wrote...

There aren't any plot holes in ME2, because there's almost no plot.


Lol. Funny, but true.

#6
huntrrz

huntrrz
  • Members
  • 1 522 messages

the_devils_aid wrote...

hi guy. you may be missing the point about the conduit

saren practically took over the citadel. he needed the back door to do so. sovereign knew that saren and his geth army would NEVER succeed in taking the citadel in a frontal attack, because they would just close it.

...

only someone who cant read above a 3rd grade level would say that it lost all meaning because it was a backdoor into the citadel no-one knew about

I think the OP's point is that initially Saren didn't NEED the Conduit to infiltrate the Citadel (and he didn't need an army of Geth with him either).  He was working for the Reapers while he was still a Spectre and under no suspicion from the Council.  He could have simply visited the Citadel and activated the control console before anyone realized what he was doing; coordinating the Sovereign/Geth attack to hit at the same time.

He simply infiltratres and sabotages - the Geth fleet jumps in, takes out the defending ships, Sovereign opens the relay and GAME OVER.  He doesn't even have to stand by to close/re-open the station, just disable the relay network so no distress signals can get out or reinforcements can arrive.  Maybe pick a nice spot and snipe anyone trying to figure out WTF the control console is and how to undo his handiwork.

Simple for a Spectre.

Modifié par huntrrz, 06 février 2010 - 08:40 .


#7
JamesT91

JamesT91
  • Members
  • 276 messages
ME1 clearly has better story

its longer



its more epic- u save the galaxy not just a few colonies



its more fluid- u do a mission and then explain ur actions to the council rather than that annoying mission complete screen



there are no plot holes whereas ME2- why didnt shepherd get in the pod with joker? why did the entire team suddenly leave the normandy just before the IFF was analysed?

#8
Solitas777

Solitas777
  • Members
  • 54 messages
ME2 had good STORIES but not a good Main Story. Side stories shouldn't be 4/5 of a game, party members should be introduce gradually and in someway have to do with the main plot. DId I like recruiting and their side missions? Yeah, but I wanted a longer more interesting Main story. Why bioware neglected the main story so much is beyond me.

#9
huntrrz

huntrrz
  • Members
  • 1 522 messages

JamesT91 wrote...

ME1 clearly has better story
its longer

its more epic- u save the galaxy not just a few colonies

You could just as easily say you didn't save the galaxy in ME1 - you just delayed its destruction.  Same in ME2.  You've foiled Repear plans A and B, and it's only the build-up to the grand finale in ME3.

its more fluid- u do a mission and then explain ur actions to the council rather than that annoying mission complete screen

I will grant that, but I see that as a necessary evil to support DLC which I am entirely in favor of.

there are no plot holes whereas ME2- why didnt shepherd get in the pod with joker? why did the entire team suddenly leave the normandy just before the IFF was analysed?

Both answered within the game, making neither of them plot holes.

#10
MassEffect762

MassEffect762
  • Members
  • 2 193 messages
I respectfully disagree, ME2s plot was paper-thin and served almost completely as a "place holder" or "bench warmer" for ME3.

#11
Erszebeth

Erszebeth
  • Members
  • 200 messages
The collector making a human reaper makes kind of sense to me. A human foiled the plans of the reapers, so they build a human one to make human qualities their own. It's akin to eating the heart or the liver of an enemy to make his strength yours, like some old tribal cultures did. There is a bit of psychological warfare in it too.

Modifié par Erszebeth, 06 février 2010 - 09:04 .


#12
JamesT91

JamesT91
  • Members
  • 276 messages
there not answered in the game- they didnt give a reason for shepherd not getting into pod with joker



and all joker says is " you should take the shuttle to your next mission" but we dont go on a mission all the characters just go on a little field trip until the collectors come

#13
The Black Ghost

The Black Ghost
  • Members
  • 97 messages
The ending could have been awesome and could have made up for the shallowness of the rest of the story, but it turned out to be anticlimactic. Fighting a Reaper? Come on... Fighting a HUMAN reaper? ...seriously, wtf...





There is no explanation or anything for the motivation of the enemy, and although you have enough evidence to speculate, it still takes away from the experience.

#14
Borschtbeet

Borschtbeet
  • Members
  • 1 714 messages
The plot in Mass Effect 2 might have been better than Mass Effect 1. I can't give a fair assessment though since Mass Effect 2's plot was spoiled for me.



Particularly the part about the Collector/Prothean connection and the human reaper.

#15
Paeyvn

Paeyvn
  • Members
  • 1 090 messages
No, Saren needed the Geth in order to take control of the citadel. It is doubtful anyone on the council knew what it was anyway, and he would not have access to some random new thing in the middle of the Council chamber. If something new like that popped up, they wouldn't let anyone touch it unless it was a keeper.



And beyond that, people might say he could just walk in and use it, but a lesser known fact is that the Council's chamber is filled with hidden snipers...Garrus even says so in random dialogue if you talk to him up there. Without his own army to kill everyone inside, he couldn't just go in and do it.

#16
Cpl_Facehugger

Cpl_Facehugger
  • Members
  • 512 messages

Paeyvn wrote...

No, Saren needed the Geth in order to take control of the citadel. It is doubtful anyone on the council knew what it was anyway, and he would not have access to some random new thing in the middle of the Council chamber. If something new like that popped up, they wouldn't let anyone touch it unless it was a keeper.


The point wasn't that Saren didn't need an army or anything, it's that he didn't need to get to the conduit at all since he  just had to access the council chamber - which he had clearance for before his spectre status was revoked.

I guess you can say that Saren had no idea what the conduit was, but that's rather thin because that, by extension, means that Sovereign didn't, when Sovereign was of the race that built the citadel and was left to ensure the reapers' return. There's no reason for Sov to lead Saren on a wild goose chase through the galaxy looking for clues to the conduit when the conduit is just a back door into the presidium. Just have Saren make his way to the council chamber while Sovereign and the geth heretics attack. 

That's a huge plothole bigger than anything that comes to mind in ME2.

And beyond that, people might say he could just walk in and use it, but a lesser known fact is that the Council's chamber is filled with hidden snipers...Garrus even says so in random dialogue if you talk to him up there. Without his own army to kill everyone inside, he couldn't just go in and do it.


There was a distinct lack of well-armed turian/asari/salarian corpses in the council chamber when you duel Saren though. You'd expect those "hidden snipers" would have been killed already, otherwise they would have helped you against Saren.

Anyway, I disagree with the OP on one thing: Urgency. For me, the plot picked up urgency after the crew was taken. 

#17
huntrrz

huntrrz
  • Members
  • 1 522 messages

JamesT91 wrote...

there not answered in the game- they didnt give a reason for shepherd not getting into pod with joker

He's knocked back by the force of the ship shaking from explosions.  I see nothing mysterious about that.

and all joker says is " you should take the shuttle to your next mission" but we dont go on a mission all the characters just go on a little field trip until the collectors come

Yes, it's convenient writing but as it is addressed in the game it is not a plot hole.  Even if you think the explanation is a bad one the fact that it's there means it is not a plot hole - a plot hole is something that is never addressed in the presentation.

- Shepard 'has' to take the shuttle because the ship is shaking down the IFF and it's better for it to avoid moving while that's done.
- Miranda is pro-active enough to order everyone onto the shuttle so Shepard can choose his squad AFTER he arrives instead of before he departs.

It's a little clunky, but it works.

#18
JamesT91

JamesT91
  • Members
  • 276 messages

He's knocked back by the force of the ship shaking from explosions.  I see nothing mysterious about that.


hes not knocked back- go and watch the scene again- he puts joker in the pod then with his hand still holding on to the wall he lets go and slides back to the button,presses it and is THEN knocked back by the explosions

#19
huntrrz

huntrrz
  • Members
  • 1 522 messages

Paeyvn wrote...

No, Saren needed the Geth in order to take control of the citadel. It is doubtful anyone on the council knew what it was anyway, and he would not have access to some random new thing in the middle of the Council chamber. If something new like that popped up, they wouldn't let anyone touch it unless it was a keeper.

And beyond that, people might say he could just walk in and use it, but a lesser known fact is that the Council's chamber is filled with hidden snipers...Garrus even says so in random dialogue if you talk to him up there. Without his own army to kill everyone inside, he couldn't just go in and do it.

Okay, so tweak it a bit - Sovereign indoctrinated a lot of Asari commandos.  Saren trickles them into the Citadel until he has enough in place and makes his move.  The Asari help him clear the chamber and then he does his business.

No Conduit needed.  No Geth need to board.

And if we want to get down to it, Geth can be smuggled aboard the Citidel just as they were smuggled through Noveria.  No one was even LOOKING for Geth before the attack on Eden Prime.

#20
CreepingGeth

CreepingGeth
  • Members
  • 117 messages
This whole Saren plothole thing is like asking why the Eagles didn't simply fly Frodo to Mount Doom. Because the movie, or in this case, the game, would be over as quick as it started.

Nautica773 wrote...

There aren't any plot holes in ME2, because there's almost no plot.


LOL, sad but true.

#21
pedal2metal

pedal2metal
  • Members
  • 153 messages
You're assuming that Saren had the knowledge that you had by finishing ME1. This is always an issue w/narrative. He might not have acquired the knowledge of what the control panel did until after he spoke w/the Ilos AI, Vigil. So it's no less a gaping hole what you're suggesting than going through the Conduit. Plausibly-speaking, I actually think the Conduit path is more plausible as presumably the only reason the Conduit was being pursued was because incomplete knowledge was all Sovereign had. So to imply that despite that incomplete knowledge, Sovereign had revealed his entire plan to Saren, that's rebutted within the story itself. Sovereign only fed the next step in it's overall plan to open the pathway to the Reapers, not the whole show.

Regarding the Human Reaper question in ME2, it's answered in the game. The Reaper takes the form of the genetic material used in it's development.  ME2 also states that humanity now has the Reapers' attention due to ME1 events.  So there's no mystery here.

ME2 is more character-oriented in it's story-telling which is something ME1 didn't have. So it's main story arc may not be as exciting in narrative (it's still good in terms of action) but the character back-stories are much better than ME1. So it's a nice balance IMO & the ending was still satisfying, unlike some middle-act games (i.e.: Halo-2).

It's like people think the introduction, the middle, & the conclusion for any narrative are supposed to be identical when we all learned in high school english, they are distinct from one another with some shared goals and some separate goals. So far the ME franchise is doing a good job with the trilogy development, especially as compared to other attempts I've seen in the gaming world.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 06 février 2010 - 09:50 .


#22
Gill Kaiser

Gill Kaiser
  • Members
  • 6 061 messages

JamesT91 wrote...

He's knocked back by the force of the ship shaking from explosions.  I see nothing mysterious about that.


hes not knocked back- go and watch the scene again- he puts joker in the pod then with his hand still holding on to the wall he lets go and slides back to the button,presses it and is THEN knocked back by the explosions


At the time there's a laser beam between him and the pod. He couldn't get back to the pod, so he pressed the button to save Joker, just before the ship blew up.

#23
drhys23

drhys23
  • Members
  • 99 messages
i always thought of the first as a chase film and now the second as a sort of revenge flick.

#24
JamesT91

JamesT91
  • Members
  • 276 messages

At the time there's a laser beam between him and the pod. He couldn't get back to the pod, so he pressed the button to save Joker, just before the ship blew up.


but why didnt he just step in with joker? there has to be a button inside the pod to release it otherwise ashley/liaras pod wouldnt have been able to leave without u or joker pressing the button

yes he pressed the button then explosions prevented him from getting in quickly before it closed but there was nothing stopping him getting in with joker

#25
huntrrz

huntrrz
  • Members
  • 1 522 messages
YOU watch it again. The ship rocks from an explosion, knocking him away from the pod. Then the beam keeps him at bay, then he is shaken loose while he is clinging onto a pillar.



To quote an old commercial, "It's in there!".