305 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...
I don't see why one of their licenced genetics companies didn't come up with something like that centuries ago.

According to Shepard, only humans can think outside the box.

I mean, humans invented the concept of aircraft carriers too.

[Someone With Mass]

Besides, any dreadnought can take out the carrier from a very safe distance.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's more like 'most weapon/armor manufacturers we find items from.' I mean, if I were an American soldier in Iraq I'd still expect to buy most my stuff from American suppliers, for a number of reasons.

But even aliens sell the weapons, not only the alliance. It seems to me that human weapons are so good that they invaded the galactic market. IIRC, even Specter weapons are human made.

When was either of those ever really implied? Some human corporations made their way to the galactic market, but no one's really suggested they dominate. They've carved a niche for themselves, but that's can easily be for the same reasons countries with growing economies see their buisnesses expand oversees once they get rich.

Sure, aliens sell weapons, but who do they sell weapons for mostly? Aliens. Who is the Alliance going to buy for? Humans.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 avril 2011 - 11:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
When was either of those ever really implied? Some human corporations made their way to the galactic market, but no one's really suggested they dominate. They've carved a niche for themselves, but that's can easily be for the same reasons countries with growing economies see their buisnesses expand oversees once they get rich.

Sure, aliens sell weapons, but who do they sell weapons for mostly? Aliens. Who is the Alliance going to buy for? Humans.

Well I am basing it on the fact that even in Noveria, which is outside Citadel space, they sell human made weapons.
But I am not sure if this is gameplay mechanics and not lore. Otherwise we'd have to believe that human weapons somehow found their way to crates on Ilos.

Problem is that humans make armor for aliens as well. The best we can find really (colussus).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 11:16 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Noveria's also a Human-corporation Colony world. It's like the Human's Illium, for many of the same reasons.

Since we can hardly claim to have a good insight of all the armorers in the galaxy, I wouldn't look too hard at it. That the best we can find is Human-made doesn't mean it actually is the best, or that there are no alien equivalents.


The theme I took away from it all was not that the Human corporations were in any sense dominating the markets, but they were new, Alliance-supported corporations that could increasingly compete equally with everyone else. While there are many factors that tend to press down on the growth of new competitors, there are also various reasons why new competitors who can successfully grow (whether by government support/protection or new success or whatever) can elbow their way into older markets.

And, of course, don't discount cheating. We know the Alliance is more than happy enough to bankroll and back cheaters: it even funded Cerberus for decade(s) to do high-risk, high-reward tech development. When Cerberus did make successes, who do you think suddenly 'invented' and profited from them?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Noveria is not a human world, is it? I was under the impression that it's "ruled" by an executive board representating several corporations, alien and human (and do we know how many human corporations are there?). But it's not part of the alliance or Citadel space. Feros is a human-corporation world.

It not unfeasible for human manufacturers to be that competitive, I just wish that they had more alien manufacturers, some even surpassing human manufacturers. A small detail, but it would have added more realism.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[Someone With Mass]

I think it'd be a little unfair to judge the whole market based on what we've seen in the games.

[Zayle79]

As for the armor and gun manufacturing, I think that the human manufacturers were simply the most common in-game manufacturers, but not lorewise.  It wouldn't make sense at all.  Everything else, though, can be explained, but perhaps not very well.

Humanity's increased presence and power in ME2 was because of Shepard's actions in ME1.  He saved the Citadel.  He's one of the few who even acknowledged that there was a threat.  IMO, that should rightfully put humanity far ahead of where they had been before.

Modifié par Zayle79, 14 avril 2011 - 11:34 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think it'd be a little unfair to judge the whole market based on what we've seen in the games.

True, but it's an important detail. They should have added more alien manufacturers in the game. Shepard afterall is a specter who is supposed to get access to the best weapons in Citadel space.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 avril 2011 - 11:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Noveria is not a human world, is it? I was under the impression that it's "ruled" by an executive board representating several corporations, alien and human (and do we know how many human corporations are there?). But it's not part of the alliance or Citadel space. Feros is a human-corporation world.

And, technically, Illium is a corporate world outside Citadel space as well.

.

It not unfeasible for human manufacturers to be that competitive, I just wish that they had more alien manufacturers, some even surpassing human manufacturers. A small detail, but it would have added more realism.

Spectre gear, perhaps? Or the Asari biotic implants?

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think it'd be a little unfair to judge the whole market based on what we've seen in the games.

True, but it's an important detail. They should have added more alien manufacturers in the game. Shepard afterall is a specter who is supposed to get access to the best weapons in Citadel space.

That's not quite true. The only special gear a Spectre gets access to are the C-SEC armory, which is of mixed quality. Everything else is Shepard getting licenses onhis own..

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And, technically, Illium is a corporate world outside Citadel space as well.

Well according to the wikia, Noveria is a human world, but I never got the impression from the game. And the codex doesn't mention it. I must be mising something.

Spectre gear, perhaps? Or the Asari biotic implants?

I thought Specter gear was human, as the symbol of the manufacturers is virtually identical to that of the Alliance. I could be mistaken however. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think the humans have a lot less significance in the galaxy than a lot of people here are attributing to them.

Honestly, I think we got so much attention because we were interesting. I think we were the first race in a long, long time to discover FTL and Mass Relay tech independently, without being shown it by the Asari and Salarians. What's more, we managed to beat the Turians in a skirmish, even if we would have been obliterated in a longer war (and yes, we would have been.) 

It probably was super impetuous of us to want a council seat right away (though, as I've pointed out before, the Salarians were only at the citadel 20 years before they and the asari formed the council.) But, as humans, we're used to representative governments. (If I had a political party in ME, it would relate to giving non-council races some level of political say, even if not at the level of council races.) We were going to make a stink.

We are also a pawn. As I've said before, I think the Asari and the Salarians are a bit annoyed with having to rely so heavily on the Turians for military support. It gives this "upstart" race (been on the council a millenium less than the older two races) power beyond its status. If they can split the power the Turians have now between the Turians and the humans, the Asari and Salarians will regain a significant measure of control. (I think they'd like it best if, effectively, the Asari have one vote, the Salarians have one vote, and the Turians and Humans each get half a vote. Heh.)

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 avril 2011 - 12:01 .

[Jamin101]

adam_grif wrote...

The_mango55 wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

What I find silly about the whole ordeal is that the Asari and Turians have been council races for hundreds or thousands of years, but the human military was on par with the Turians technologically during the first contact war.

The races all discovered tech that was left by the reapers and has been in use by thousands of civilizations for millions of years. There's no room left for improvement.

The only differences between a small culture that just found the tech and one that's been using it for thousands of years is scale. That's still represented pretty well I believe, considering the Turian fleet is 5 times the size of the Human fleet.

Erm, there obviously is drastic room for improvement, given how superior the collectors were, and then how superior the Reapers are above that.

Well  you don't really know how advanced asari technology was 2000
years ago. You know they're already using element zero and mass
accelerators, but the level of sophistication is still up in the air.

Technology advances extremely rapidly. The idea that it took 2000 years for the galaxy to catch up to where the humans were at, just because they discovered better ruins on Mars or something, is very silly.

Remember that it took 30 years to go from the very first fission bomb to sophistecated, computer guided intercontinental missiles with fusion warheads that had yields thousands of times greater. They are making technological progress, so why was it so slow?

Indeed, the Asari should have a huge advantage over all other species in tech development too, because they have thousand year lifespans. Their specialists don't decay and die when they hit their 80's, they live on and accumulate experience and knowledge.

In Earth terms, this would mean that Isaac Newton could have been swapping notes with Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawkings, because they were merely hundreds of years apart, like being born in different decades for humans. The great minds of generations pasts live on. Imagine if Aristottle or Socrates had lived to a thousand, how much further along things would have progressed.

The Protheans were around for less time than we were, but some how became far more advanced than we are even in 2185. Remember that the Reapers are hundreds of years overdue already. Certainly there is nothing stopping a race from becoming this advanced in the time-frame - so why haven't they?

Again, it's just bizarre technological stasis.

I agree with what you are saying science wise but culture wise I think they address it in the games. Living so long gives a completely different world (galaxy) view.

For example the economy goes bad and humans immediately start stimulus packages, lowering taxes/interest rates etc. Whereas what is 5 years of bad economy to an asari, just chill and see how it goes, if it becomes a long term problem you fix it if not well its like 2% of your life you were making less. Or maybe an asari starts assesing whats going on, gets commitees set up.

Thats a bad example but i cant think of a better one. The point I am trying to make is things might not be as urgent or needed to the Asari due to long life they have so they can spend more time studying, evaluating, testing, perfecting etc.

Maybe someone science inclined can come up with a good example of how patience could hurt scientific development

[Jamin101]

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Gweedotk wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Invalid. Other species around for much longer. Human dominance unlikely, no matter the heroics. Bioware = xenophobic.

{smilie} I just totally imagined what you said in a salarian's voice.

I agree... not one particular species completely dominate a galaxy... (other than the reapers in this case)

Humans becoming a major player in galactic governments on the other hand doesn't seem impossible (intuition, ingenuity, etc).

This is what I prefer, humans filling a certain galactic niche. As for government, I'd think Asari with their millenia-long life spans and peaceful, learned ways would fill that role. I'm not sure what role humans would fill, perhaps something involving engineers, theres where our intuition and ingenuity would be used. But from human history and our tendency toward individualism and not-so-selfless attitude, I'd say any position in government or economics wouldn't be good. =P

Depends... not every human is the same... some humans make great political leaders and some are hitlers (bad choice)... that's why there's a democratic/voting process (filtering out who's more fit).

I assume you meant bad choice as in Hitler is evil? I actually find him to be a good example of how humans could advance so fast.

He pretty much got chechoslovakia (bad spelling i know) for free which is almost like kicking the Batarians out. He made secret deals to test tanks in russia which is almost like developing a new stealth warship with your greatest threat because on your own you couldnt. Used blitzkrieg which at the time was a dominant new strategy similar to using carriers and thinking outside the box.

Personally he was super driven and would do anything to achieve his goals including taking on the world alone while carrying Italy along which sounds like humanity doing anything to be on the council/get power etc.

This post is making Hitler sound good which is definately not my intent but I can see how his traits and the traits of **** germany in general would be good traits to have if you wanted to quickly expand in power and influence

[DashRunner92]

Because we adapt and we don't live very long

[HunterX6]

Zayle79 wrote...

I always thought that in the beginning of ME1, they weren't. They were plentiful, ambitious, and tenacious, but not militarily or politically powerful. But, because of the actions of Shepard, that changes.

All other species -- including the most powerful races, the races of the Council -- ignored Saren, the geth, and the reapers, leaving Shepard as the only person who could defend the galaxy or even gave a bleep about it. When the one man stands between the galaxy and the outside forces that want to destroy it is a human, humanity gets respect. Does that make sense?

Defend the plot!

Yes it does "mr. know-it-all"/scmi

[Gweedotk]

Lol this game is a pretty good way to see just how open minded people are. Although as gamers, we're likely to be a little more... mmm open minded than say your average senior citizen, it is pretty interesting all the same haha.

I also noticed that medi-gel and omni-gel are human inventions, they didn't exist before we showed up. Salarians, after being space faring for thousands of years and being the most intelligent race in the galaxy just weren't creative enough to create it... I think creativity is measured by intelligence, I doubt humans are just more creative than others.

Edit:

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

michaelrsa wrote...

Because it's a science fiction piece written by humans.

Hehe, at last a good post after a series of "because humans are awesum".

Alien
races in a sci-fi like that tend to portray various extremes of human
psyche, with the actual sci-fi humans being the "sensible middle
ground". As the human option is the "proper" one, there is a temptation
to indulge in making us feel all swell, warm and fuzzy, as evidenced in
ME2 and its humans becoming a superpower over the weekend.

Thank you, able to put into words what I could not. It's an old technique, I'm a little tired of it personally. The constant portrayal of humans as proper has a rather negative effect on my veiws on humanity as a species in the real world; we can't seem to get over ourselves as individuals, nations, even as a species. We're just sentient primates where as Turian's are (more or less) sentient velociraptors: Must I finish?

Modifié par Gweedotk, 15 avril 2011 - 07:50 .

[jimmyjoefro]

Humans really aren't. Turians and Asari would probably still take the Alliance out to the woodshed. Salarians would probably destroy them strategically. Humans are just the best new guy on the block. They offer better military support than Hanar, Elcor, or Volus, they're not brutal like Krogans or Batarians, have a better social standing than Quarians, and they far outnumber Drell.

I think we may get this perception because of Shepard and all his connections, but he's just one human and not a microcosm of the entire race. Humans are probably 4th on the galaxy totem pole,

[Taritu]

It does feel mildly ridiculous. The races who have been around, on multiple planets for a couple thousand years should have populations so much larger than the human population that the human economy is a rounding error. It's not like humans have higher tech than aliens. And in a world like this, economy = military might to a large degree, since it means a lot more ships and crews for the ships and at the end of the day, that's what matters.

Frankly, it just doesn't make much sense. They've never explained humanity's power properly. I mean, who cares if the Elcor suck in a hand to hand fight, for example, that wouldn't stop them building a fleet, or using mechs for troops (in ME1, before mechs, it made more sense.)

[Vanaer]

Jamin101 wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

Gweedotk wrote...

FuturePasTimeCE wrote...

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Invalid. Other species around for much longer. Human dominance unlikely, no matter the heroics. Bioware = xenophobic.

{smilie} I just totally imagined what you said in a salarian's voice.

I agree... not one particular species completely dominate a galaxy... (other than the reapers in this case)

Humans becoming a major player in galactic governments on the other hand doesn't seem impossible (intuition, ingenuity, etc).

This is what I prefer, humans filling a certain galactic niche. As for government, I'd think Asari with their millenia-long life spans and peaceful, learned ways would fill that role. I'm not sure what role humans would fill, perhaps something involving engineers, theres where our intuition and ingenuity would be used. But from human history and our tendency toward individualism and not-so-selfless attitude, I'd say any position in government or economics wouldn't be good. =P

Depends... not every human is the same... some humans make great political leaders and some are hitlers (bad choice)... that's why there's a democratic/voting process (filtering out who's more fit).

I assume you meant bad choice as in Hitler is evil? I actually find him to be a good example of how humans could advance so fast.

He pretty much got chechoslovakia (bad spelling i know) for free which is almost like kicking the Batarians out. He made secret deals to test tanks in russia which is almost like developing a new stealth warship with your greatest threat because on your own you couldnt. Used blitzkrieg which at the time was a dominant new strategy similar to using carriers and thinking outside the box.

Personally he was super driven and would do anything to achieve his goals including taking on the world alone while carrying Italy along which sounds like humanity doing anything to be on the council/get power etc.

This post is making Hitler sound good which is definately not my intent but I can see how his traits and the traits of **** germany in general would be good traits to have if you wanted to quickly expand in power and influence

The great thing about the war was the number of innovations. Including those in Germany. However, it also put Germany on a deterministic war path (though I never quite understood why they declared war on America - they weren't obliged to). Still, Germany proves that having a handfull of technical trinkets can't help an army of which a very large portion wasn't even mechanized. But it gave us fundamental new technique's (V1 & V2 - still very much experimental) and something to build on after the war.

Take the American Army on the other hand. Almost fully mech'ed; the enormous industrial capacity to mass produce efficient in the end helped them win the war (USSR is interesting, as it had some major innovations - sloped armor - and mass prod. capacity). 

[Gweedotk]

Taritu wrote...

It does feel mildly ridiculous. The races who have been around, on multiple planets for a couple thousand years should have populations so much larger than the human population that the human economy is a rounding error. It's not like humans have higher tech than aliens. And in a world like this, economy = military might to a large degree, since it means a lot more ships and crews for the ships and at the end of the day, that's what matters.

Frankly, it just doesn't make much sense. They've never explained humanity's power properly. I mean, who cares if the Elcor suck in a hand to hand fight, for example, that wouldn't stop them building a fleet, or using mechs for troops (in ME1, before mechs, it made more sense.)

It is somewhat... impractical economically. It is feasible, but not in a monetary economy. This is where TVP and TZM's resource based-economics would be a necessity for humans to be able to catch up. Perhaps something Bioware should look into.

[Zayle79]

HunterX6 wrote...

Zayle79 wrote...

I always thought that in the beginning of ME1, they weren't. They were plentiful, ambitious, and tenacious, but not militarily or politically powerful. But, because of the actions of Shepard, that changes.

All other species -- including the most powerful races, the races of the Council -- ignored Saren, the geth, and the reapers, leaving Shepard as the only person who could defend the galaxy or even gave a bleep about it. When the one man stands between the galaxy and the outside forces that want to destroy it is a human, humanity gets respect. Does that make sense?

Defend the plot!

Yes it does "mr. know-it-all"/scmi

I was asking sincerely, not sarcastically.  Sometimes I say things that don't make sense. 

Taritu wrote...

It does feel mildly ridiculous. The races who have been around, on multiple planets for a couple thousand years should have populations so much larger than the human population that the human economy is a rounding error. It's not like humans have higher tech than aliens. And in a world like this, economy = military might to a large degree, since it means a lot more ships and crews for the ships and at the end of the day, that's what matters.

Frankly, it just doesn't make much sense. They've never explained humanity's power properly. I mean, who cares if the Elcor suck in a hand to hand fight, for example, that wouldn't stop them building a fleet, or using mechs for troops (in ME1, before mechs, it made more sense.)

Who ever said that humans have a huge population?  Political power can be explained, but there's no way that a high human population could be explained.  But I don't think that it has to be.  I think that the Alliance is simply tiny, but it's really important.