207 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexandus]

Asante81 wrote...

He just had to get his eyes replaced because of staring too long right into the sun... and he's an egocentric dick. All he actually cares about are HIS plans for human dominance over everyone else. He doesn't even realize that with his actions he's about to cause what he's most afraid of: and alien attack on humanity. He only needs to open his eyes (haha) and take a look at the galaxy's recent history (Rachni, Krogan, etc.) The more a species tries to dominate/conquer the rest, the faster it gets crushed.
And he's the one making himself like that. No one behind it. He's xenophobic.

Oh, never mind that he saved untold countless lives by ressurecting shepard. You paragon types are all the same.

I think it's safe to say that if TIM had never existed, Shepard would remain dead (very dead, I might add), and the Reapers would most likely win. Who's going to stop them, Ashely? Ambassador Udina? Lol.

Get over yourself. Cerberus was founded in reaction TO the other species being xenophobic about HUMANITY. Turians attacked us without provacation (they could easily have opened a comm channel and said, "Hey, please don't open that mass relay guys), Batarians seem to suicide bomb us whenever possible, ect.

As of now, Cerberus is the only organization confirmed to not be in complete denial about the Reapers. Your diplomatic little confederation of council races, had things been left up to them, would have doomed the entire galaxy with their political correctness and arrogance.

[DuffyMJ]

Alexandus wrote...

Asante81 wrote...

He just had to get his eyes replaced because of staring too long right into the sun... and he's an egocentric dick. All he actually cares about are HIS plans for human dominance over everyone else. He doesn't even realize that with his actions he's about to cause what he's most afraid of: and alien attack on humanity. He only needs to open his eyes (haha) and take a look at the galaxy's recent history (Rachni, Krogan, etc.) The more a species tries to dominate/conquer the rest, the faster it gets crushed.
And he's the one making himself like that. No one behind it. He's xenophobic.

Oh, never mind that he saved untold countless lives by ressurecting shepard. You paragon types are all the same.

I think it's safe to say that if TIM had never existed, Shepard would remain dead (very dead, I might add), and the Reapers would most likely win. Who's going to stop them, Ashely? Ambassador Udina? Lol.

Get over yourself. Cerberus was founded in reaction TO the other species being xenophobic about HUMANITY. Turians attacked us without provacation (they could easily have opened a comm channel and said, "Hey, please don't open that mass relay guys), Batarians seem to suicide bomb us whenever possible, ect.

As of now, Cerberus is the only organization confirmed to not be in complete denial about the Reapers. Your diplomatic little confederation of council races, had things been left up to them, would have doomed the entire galaxy with their political correctness and arrogance.

Lol, wow.

My take is that humans are nothing special in Mass Effect, they are not superior or worth saving or advancing the interests of anymore than any other species.  Every species in the game has stereotypes, sure, but the encounters with NPC's reveal that everyone in Mass Effect is basically "human" in the humanistic sense.  You got your joe the plumber type of turian guy that you meet on Noveria (the mechanic), militaristic Salarians (the STG captain), gumshoe Asari (the detective chick on Illium), scummy used car salesmen-like Elcor, etc. etc. etc.

So let's all just agree here that humans and other creatures/beings are all equally worthy of survival and happiness, etc.

The problem with your logic is that preventing presumed/speculated deaths by killing/experimenting/violating sacred ethical standards is unacceptable behavior.  Nuking Japanese cities to supposedly prevent the deaths of millions of American GI's and Japanese civilians is the same ethical debate.  You simply can't take credit for preventing some imaginary massacre that never occurred, and if you could, we would be giving TSA screeners at airports Medals of Honor everyday for preventing nut balls from hijacking airplanes on a daily basis, or we would be giving cops keys to the city every day for deterring criminal activity by their mere existence.

[Caz Neerg]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Lol, wow.

My take is that humans are nothing special in Mass Effect, they are not superior or worth saving or advancing the interests of anymore than any other species.  Every species in the game has stereotypes, sure, but the encounters with NPC's reveal that everyone in Mass Effect is basically "human" in the humanistic sense.  You got your joe the plumber type of turian guy that you meet on Noveria (the mechanic), militaristic Salarians (the STG captain), gumshoe Asari (the detective chick on Illium), scummy used car salesmen-like Elcor, etc. etc. etc.

So let's all just agree here that humans and other creatures/beings are all equally worthy of survival and happiness, etc.

Wow.  Superiority has nothing to do with it.  I don't recall anyone in Cerberus ever saying humans are superior.  They are just, you know, the race that the people in Cerberus happen to be, and a rational person wants his species to survive and prosper.  So at the point where there is a conflict between what advances the interests of humanity, and what advances the interests of a given non-human species, a human would have to be pretty masochistic or stupid to say that the other species should win. 

So no, let's not all just agree that all beings are equally worthy of survival and happiness, because the second a situation comes up where we *must* either hurt our own people to help others, or hurt others to help our own, the happiness and survival of the others *should* become less important to us.

[Inverness Moon]

zakobon wrote...

I gave TIM the base. I'm looking forward to getting my Star Destroyer in ME3.

Maybe the geth will let you fly their Geth Star around when they're finished building it, assuming its in your lifetime of course.

I'm sure the first contact war had a hand in spawning Cerberus as a means to protect and ensure the survival of humanity.

I really don't like the council. There is a particular planet somewhere in the galaxy with an interesting story. Basically quarians started settling there because they liked the planet. The Council denied them control of the planet because they had already settled hundreds of thousands before they petitoned the Council for control. So the Council awarded the planet to the elcor and gave the quarians a month to leave or they would be bombarded from orbit. It is disgusting.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 07 février 2010 - 05:12 .

[Tychu9]

I hope you people know that in the real world there are more than good guys and bad guys. Nothing to me in ME2 told me that he was a villian and nothing told me he was a good person. All he is, is a human that wants to see the Human race cement their place in the galaxy and be the ones that other races aspire to. He does things that will give him the effects that he desires, that isn't a villian.

[Schneidend]

Far too many shades of gray here, to paraphrase Tychu. I do think Illusive Man has lost his way however, after hearing some of his lines during the end of the suicide mission.

[Caz Neerg]

Tychu9 wrote...

I hope you people know that in the real world there are more than good guys and bad guys. Nothing to me in ME2 told me that he was a villian and nothing told me he was a good person. All he is, is a human that wants to see the Human race cement their place in the galaxy and be the ones that other races aspire to. He does things that will give him the effects that he desires, that isn't a villian.

In the real world there are just people, with no inherent moral quality, and good and bad are nothing but labels we apply to them based on how strongly we agree or disagree with their choices.  Come to think of it, the same is true in fiction.  There are no villains, and who the heroes are is a question of perspective.

[Delta Green]

He has uncompromising goals and he'll do whatever it takes to ensure human dominance. But I think it's way too early and certainly cliched to expect him to be all REAPER HUMAN EVIL DUR HUR FINAL BOSS OF ME3. At least I hope not.



He takes risks and he is willing to sacrifice people but he is also the only one who seems willing to do anything about the collectors, the only one not who sees (airquote)the reaper threat(/airquote) and he recognizes your importance not only as a competent soldier but as a shining example of human virtue and endurance.



TIM also represents certain aspects of the best (and worst) humanity has to offer; intelligence, passion, uncompromising, cunning and ruthlessness. For better or for worst we're not in any position to be picky about our allies against the reapers.

[mage1102]

Did anyone give him the Reaper technology?

[MeanElDiablo]

I think that he could have been the best choice for an archenemy for Shepard. Saren was his enemy first time around, it'd be awesome to have to work for the next one.If they restructured TIM so that you contact him after every mission, it could be like this:



You make a paragon choice, he's mad you didn't take the hard choice and for being so idealistic.

You make a renegade choice, he's mad that you're acting like a loose cannon.



As for him actually being good/evil, does he have to be? I mean, he's just a human that's willing to kill, experiment and torture for his species. Patriotic criminal.

[Sidac]

Archereon wrote...

Regardless of whether he's a good guy or a villain, he's dying in Mass Effect three if I have anything to say about it.

Blowing up the collector base was my first big FU to him...

Same, cerberus killed sheps squad on Akuze....KILL THE BASTARD! I blew up the base to get back at him.

[Collider]

I didn't get the "bad guy" impression from him. Just an ends justifies the means kind of guy. He's not afraid to use his power in ways some people would consider immoral or dishonorable, if the results are ultimately for the better. Had it not been for the Illusive Man the Collectors may have conquered humanity, thereby creating a human reaper which would surely have enslaved or destroyed all sapient beings. Shepard would be dead and the council would be too stupid and stubborn to recognize the reaper threat. The same thing that happened before with the protheans would happen again.

Sometimes you need to play outside the rules. I like how another poster put it - the Illusive Man is the embodiment of the best and worst of humanity. Obviously he has compassion for his focus on helping other humans, but as the same time he is manipulating and often ruthless.

Modifié par Collider, 07 février 2010 - 05:40 .

[shoemy89]

Keltoris wrote...

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

I gave him the collector base, I like someone who fights for humans. I'm a human nationalist haha. It will be interesting to see what he does with the base in ME3. Don't get indoctrinated now Mr. Sheen!

While I disagree with you; I like how you've pointed indoctrination out. That was part of the reason I blew it up.

That was part of my decision too. Even if it isn't indoctrination, there's just something about him that I don't trust. ...Aside from the whole leader of a human-centric organization thing.

[Biocrazy]

Hes Bad...OK.

[Rykn]

He's neither. he's just an idiot with a huge ego who thinks he will save the galaxy and be praised the idiot. No way will I give him the equipment to build a goddamn reaper!

Modifié par Rykn, 07 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[LaughingDragon]

is The Illusive Man is bad???

Let me remind everyone -

The Alliance and the Citadel Council COVERED UP the events in ME1 and have done NOTHING to address the reaper threat. In fact, they deny the reaper threat even exists at all.

Cerberus is the ONLY organization who is doing anything to fight the reapers. Cerberus alone solely funded the entire campaign against the collectors (including the resurrection of shepard and the construction of a new normandy) who in fact are working for the reapers while the alliance and citadel did absolutely nothing.

Whether good or bad, the illusive man is the only one taking action to protect the galaxy, which includes all races.

Hes clearly the most good guy in the entire freaking galaxy hes saving everyones asses.

[i7206]

The whole argument about which choice was the best with the base is a bit sillly. We all know Bioware will pander to the paragons, so its obvious that TIM will turn out evil, just so all the paragons can feel justified in deciding to blow it up.

[DuffyMJ]

Caz Neerg wrote...

Tychu9 wrote...

I hope you people know that in the real world there are more than good guys and bad guys. Nothing to me in ME2 told me that he was a villian and nothing told me he was a good person. All he is, is a human that wants to see the Human race cement their place in the galaxy and be the ones that other races aspire to. He does things that will give him the effects that he desires, that isn't a villian.

In the real world there are just people, with no inherent moral quality, and good and bad are nothing but labels we apply to them based on how strongly we agree or disagree with their choices.  Come to think of it, the same is true in fiction.  There are no villains, and who the heroes are is a question of perspective.

Sounds like a pile of new age modern academic B.S. to me.  Spend a few months in a criminology school or do some police ride alongs or something, maybe around 5% of people, I would say, are evil as ****. 

[DuffyMJ]

Caz Neerg wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Lol, wow.

My take is that humans are nothing special in Mass Effect, they are not superior or worth saving or advancing the interests of anymore than any other species.  Every species in the game has stereotypes, sure, but the encounters with NPC's reveal that everyone in Mass Effect is basically "human" in the humanistic sense.  You got your joe the plumber type of turian guy that you meet on Noveria (the mechanic), militaristic Salarians (the STG captain), gumshoe Asari (the detective chick on Illium), scummy used car salesmen-like Elcor, etc. etc. etc.

So let's all just agree here that humans and other creatures/beings are all equally worthy of survival and happiness, etc.

Wow.  Superiority has nothing to do with it.  I don't recall anyone in Cerberus ever saying humans are superior.  They are just, you know, the race that the people in Cerberus happen to be, and a rational person wants his species to survive and prosper.  So at the point where there is a conflict between what advances the interests of humanity, and what advances the interests of a given non-human species, a human would have to be pretty masochistic or stupid to say that the other species should win. 

So no, let's not all just agree that all beings are equally worthy of survival and happiness, because the second a situation comes up where we *must* either hurt our own people to help others, or hurt others to help our own, the happiness and survival of the others *should* become less important to us.

You're saying that "your people" are superior, actually.  Your inability to empathize with others who are not "your own" is a fallacy of empathy. Advancing the interests of yourself or your family over MANY other people is the very definition of "parasitic elitism" -- one of the theories of the decline and fall of civilizations like the Romans.

Self-sacrifice and humility are the pillars of good, anything else is the road to hell paved with good intentions.

[LaughingDragon]

Theres a huge problem with TIM working for the reapers.



If he does work for the reapers, why bring back shepard and the normandy, and why annihilate the collectors? Theres no motivation at all for annihilating the collectors when the collectors themselves work for the reapers.

[Missouri Tigers]

I like him.  He's done a lot for me personally and he's the only leader in the entire galaxy wiling to save the entire galaxy.

[Jagri]

Its funny all TIM ever did was throw money into projects and offer a few nice words here and there. "Oh Shepard I sent you into a trap because I knew you would be able to handle it!"... "Oh Shepard I put your love interest/friend in danger but it was only for our races survival!"

How easly we forgive crimes when money is thrown at people. But then give someone purpose, resources, and words of encouragement and they are happy as can be.... Puppets

Modifié par Jagri, 07 février 2010 - 06:59 .

[HAGA NAGA]

I don't know about whether or not he is good or bad. but if the illusive man is not a Maleshep Romance in ME3 I'm gonna be totally pissed.

[Xerxes52]

Yeah he's a bad dude, but my Renegade Shep has plans for him. Mostly plans involving him being shot into the star in the background and Shep donning the suit with the open collar.



Hopefully Renegades can do that in ME3.