207 réponses à ce sujet

[BusterPoindexter]

He's a complicated guy. You could make a case for him being evil because of his little regard for the safety of those around him, and ceberus's deservedly bad reputation. I think his reputation is a little off compared to the council. They are like on the opposite spectrum of the corruption scale but thats another discussion. He is at least competent. His intentions are good for most of the game but his actions in the end make me nervous. He acted like he was okay with paragon's shepard's actions for most of the game because "it was for the good of humanity" or "it got the job done". He was actually really frustarted, for the first time after blowing up the station, and started talking about the humanity crap. I can understand if this was after my paragon shepard defeated the reaper threat, and TIM saw a tool destroyed. It kind of makes me think that he viewed shep as a tool to get this power and not neccessarily as the key to the human race.



Either way the allegiances in ME3 should be interesting. Renagades who burnt most of there bridges could now team up with the new and improved cerberus while and paragons will have the geth, rachni, krogan, quarians and all that.

[SofaKingLiveBXNY]

There is no real good and evil at least the way I play the game. Just whether or not a character's goals, methods, and motives are the same as Shep's. The Illusive Man doesn't strike me as "evil" so far I have only played Me 1 and 2 not readt the books or comics, but you definately shouldnt get a positive vibe from him. He seems like it would be a mistake to trust him or give him any added advantage in his whole human dominance goal just for the simple fact that just like my Shep he more than likely will not hesitate to take you out if you are in his way. he clearly wants humans with his self at the forefront to rule the galaxy and that's too much my Shep just wants to save it and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was or will soon be indoctrinated more than likely on purpose for more knowledge and power... I cant rock with him too close either way you kno he will be and enemy in ME3 probably mid-game boss or somethin. He seemed sketchy from jump street. I just really hope miranda doesnt backstab me later too cause I like her maybe she knows some secrets..

[Caz Neerg]

DuffyMJ wrote...
You're saying that "your people" are superior, actually.  Your inability to empathize with others who are not "your own" is a fallacy of empathy. Advancing the interests of yourself or your family over MANY other people is the very definition of "parasitic elitism" -- one of the theories of the decline and fall of civilizations like the Romans.

Self-sacrifice and humility are the pillars of good, anything else is the road to hell paved with good intentions.

Not at all.  Describing a group as superior would imply that you believe they have greater objective value.  I am speaking of subjective value.  The good of your own people should be more important to you than the good of other people, and for the others their good should be more important to them than yours.

As for self-sacrifice and humility being pillars of good, that is pure opinion, and not one I share.  I don't believe that humility is a virtue.  If you have nothing to be proud of, then it isn't really humility, and if you are more capable than others, then it is fundamentally dishonest.

[xMister Vx]

I initially gave him the benefit of doubt. I thought he would be a Chessmaster/Manipulative Bastard, but at least definitely on my side. That he was a smart man who used any and all methods at his disposal to reach his goal - something I can understand, even though his methods were sometimes extremely excessive and unjustified. But as I said, I gave him the benefit of doubt, thinking that there is a chance that he's not just another villain.

I believed right until the very end. Then everything changed when he got emotional for a moment and told me that "Cerberus is humanity". That was the turning point. He obviously thinks of himself as the greatest benefactor of the human race. No thank you, I do not work with megalomaniacs. My Shepard is genre savvy, so he broke ties with the Illusive Man, - he is bound to walk that proverbial road paved with good intentions. Unless BioWare surprises me, but after a line like that I don't think it's likely.

In the new novel, he also seems to be a) hell bent on revenge and implanting Reaper tech into some guy (the extent of this remains to be seen, but it's in the description). Anybody who has read a reasonable amount of fiction literature should be able to tell that these are the typical traits of someone headed for the position of the villain.

[Fishy]

xMister Vx wrote...

I initially gave him the benefit of doubt. I thought he would be a Chessmaster/Manipulative Bastard, but at least definitely on my side. That he was a smart man who used any and all methods at his disposal to reach his goal - something I can understand, even though his methods were sometimes extremely excessive and unjustified. But as I said, I gave him the benefit of doubt, thinking that there is a chance that he's not just another villain.
I believed right until the very end. Then everything changed when he got emotional for a moment and told me that "Cerberus is humanity". That was the turning point. He obviously thinks of himself as the greatest benefactor of the human race. No thank you, I do not work with megalomaniacs. My Shepard is genre savvy, so he broke ties with the Illusive Man, - he is bound to walk that proverbial road paved with good intentions. Unless BioWare surprises me, but after a line like that I don't think it's likely.
In the new novel, he also seems to be a) hell bent on revenge and implanting Reaper tech into some guy (the extent of this remains to be seen, but it's in the description). Anybody who has read a reasonable amount of fiction literature should be able to tell that these are the typical traits of someone headed for the position of the villain.

The whole thing's .. Tim use Shepard just like Shepard Use Tim ... If you don't blow up the base at the end .. Tim win .. if you blow it .. Shepard win.

[DuffyMJ]

Caz Neerg wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
You're saying that "your people" are superior, actually.  Your inability to empathize with others who are not "your own" is a fallacy of empathy. Advancing the interests of yourself or your family over MANY other people is the very definition of "parasitic elitism" -- one of the theories of the decline and fall of civilizations like the Romans.

Self-sacrifice and humility are the pillars of good, anything else is the road to hell paved with good intentions.

Not at all.  Describing a group as superior would imply that you believe they have greater objective value.  I am speaking of subjective value.  The good of your own people should be more important to you than the good of other people, and for the others their good should be more important to them than yours.

As for self-sacrifice and humility being pillars of good, that is pure opinion, and not one I share.  I don't believe that humility is a virtue.  If you have nothing to be proud of, then it isn't really humility, and if you are more capable than others, then it is fundamentally dishonest.

Well then frankly, you're wrong.  Justice is not about subjectivity, it's about fairness.  Procedures of justice have nothing to do with subjective values, and are all about fairness and equality.  If you let your subjective passions/beliefs guide your judgment, then you're not a "good guy", you're horribly biased.  

[SofaKingLiveBXNY]

TIM has alot of these Shep's indoctrinated already it seems... You know he will be a enemy at some point next game whether u help him in me2 or not. As a paragon it shouldnt be an option to you to help him at the end and as a renegade you can clearly see he thinks he can give you order's and is using u. He wanted miranda to kill you..if u choose to blow up the base. She definately wasnt gonna just charm u out of doing it. He is clearly vindictive and manipulative. He only brings you back cause you are a hero, a good cover to bring others into helping him acheive his goals as you can see by NOONE wanting to help ceberus other than the fact Shepard was involved... If you die and give him they base he doesnt give a Sh*t about ya crew 's sacrifice he just wants the tech. That was obviously his aim from the beginning.

[JamieCOTC]

TIM is a very X-Files-ish villain. He understands that you don't trust him and is honest about it. He uses truth and your own convictions as a weapon and when that doesn't work, he has deniability, as in the case of Jack. In the case of the collector base, I think he is being honest about the trap, that it was a test. This furthers the mistrust, but also solidifies the urgency of your respective goals.

[Ehlisuun]

I think the best way to figure TIM out is to look at the limitations of the story and the programming. How big a difference can giving him the base or not handing it over make? Could he use it to conquer the galaxy in ME3? Is it such a large fork that something like that is possible? It might be given that it came at the end, but more likely, even if you hand it over, something will prevent it from being usable in ME3. That could prevent us from knowing even then what he would have done with it. Alternatively, he might strip the thing down for tech and scrap and then blow it anyway. He might even use it as political capital to get his organization off the council's **** list. If he handed it over to them with the condition that humanity gets a large contingent there it would certainly go a long way toward helping defeat the reapers and reconciling Cerberus to the galaxy.

[DaeJi]

He's a bad guy who thinks he's a good guy. Every non human is expendable to him, and even some humans are fine as collateral. He doesn't even value the people under his command as anything more than means to an end.

[caynes]

SofaKingLiveBXNY wrote...

There is no real good and evil at least the way I play the game. Just whether or not a character's goals, methods, and motives are the same as Shep's. The Illusive Man doesn't strike me as "evil" so far I have only played Me 1 and 2 not readt the books or comics, but you definately shouldnt get a positive vibe from him. He seems like it would be a mistake to trust him or give him any added advantage in his whole human dominance goal just for the simple fact that just like my Shep he more than likely will not hesitate to take you out if you are in his way. he clearly wants humans with his self at the forefront to rule the galaxy and that's too much my Shep just wants to save it and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was or will soon be indoctrinated more than likely on purpose for more knowledge and power... I cant rock with him too close either way you kno he will be and enemy in ME3 probably mid-game boss or somethin. He seemed sketchy from jump street. I just really hope miranda doesnt backstab me later too cause I like her maybe she knows some secrets..

i agree if you think the means justifies the ends no matter what than he's good, otherwise hes bad, i personally think his a bad guy, because i think he will step on everyone else to help only humans

[caynes]

kinda like how i think racists are evil in a way

[aeetos21]

Even the bad guys get it right some of the time and in this case TIM was in the right. But in the long run? No we don't look like each other but aliens are "saints and jerks" just like humans are. Yes each race has it's own organizations that undertake illegal operations to better it over others but you can't beat wrong by doing wrong.



I'm glad somebody was around during the collector threat and if I could I'd bring the Counci and every other leader who ignored the threat before a courtroom and have them tried for being unfit for command. Same goes with Cerberus and TIM and the crimes they committed.



Of course to think any of that could happen is an extremely naive viewpoint. I guess all we can hope for is that in the end, some higher power will sort it all out and justice will finally be served. But until then, my Shepard's main goal is to help and protect others any way he can.

[aeetos21]

Double post, sorry

Modifié par aeetos21, 07 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[Freestorm Skinn]

Bear in mind that even if you blow up the base, he already has its spec, since EDI sent them to him. He's probably going to build his version of the base somewhere.

Given the plot of the next novel and that information, I think he's going to show up in ME3 with Reaper tech at his disposal either way.

[caynes]

same i really trusted him until he lied, i mean u knew he wasnt that nice but i thought since we had the same goal he would be trust worthy and give enough respect and tell the truth

[Darth Garrus]

The whole point about the Illusive Man is about doing a "pact with the devil" to overcome a difficult situation. The good thing is that you have the ability to make your own choices throughout the game, and refrain from being a pawn in his machinations. You could side with him, or you could use his help up to the point that your ideas diverged.



I actually think that Shep could have had some more deep issues about being resurrected by the Illusive Man, or if he owned him, or if he was right. This was a little overlooked in the story, in my opinion.



Martin Sheen is a fantastic actor. He kicked butt again as the Illusive Man!

[Freestorm Skinn]

Everyone who thinks he's a good guy keeps saying he's the only one who's stepping up to save Humanity.



Yeah, he wants to save Humanity - FOR HIMSELF TO LORD OVER.

[Mr Glow]

The Illusive Man is a weaksauce, or so Jimmy Hopkins said.

[Caz Neerg]

DuffyMJ wrote...
Well then frankly, you're wrong.  Justice is not about subjectivity, it's about fairness.  Procedures of justice have nothing to do with subjective values, and are all about fairness and equality.  If you let your subjective passions/beliefs guide your judgment, then you're not a "good guy", you're horribly biased.  

The nature of justice (and whether or not it is important to be just) is a matter of opinion, not fact, so it isn't possible for any view on it to be wrong.  Only for you to agree or disagree with it.  And there is no such thing as a person without bias, there are just people who admit their bias and those who try to pretend it doesn't exist.  Your subjective beliefs always guide your judgement.  The idea that decisions should be based on whatever promotes fairness and equality *is* a subjective belief.

[DaeJi]

The thing about the Collector's threat, is that the Illusive Man didn't do anything about it be bring Shepard back to take care of it. Were Shepard alive when this first stated (and still with the Alliance and Council), Shepard would still have taken care of it. If in needs to be done, Shepard would do it regardless of who approves. He or she proved that in Mass Effect when he or she stole the Normandy.