207 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadhi1]

I think TIM is a good guy.



Let's look at the present counsel races. The Asari at least agreed to the genocide of an entire race- the Rachni. No doubt the Solarians were complicit.



The Turians, along with the Asari and Solarians, then released the genophage on the Krogan - the same race that had helped them destroy the Rachni. Nice little reward to the former heros, eh?



And then we come to the Quarians. I don't see much help going toward a formerly recognized group. Now they're treated with contempt.



Moral: the counsel races respect power and nothing else. As long as you have power, they're your friends. When that fails, or when you become inconvenient, they will knife you in the back.



Maybe the galaxy needs for humanity and TIM to put a stop to genocide - and not just by the Reapers.



And yes, I did give him the station. Furthermore, I'll help him in the next phase as much as I can.

[Caz Neerg]

SofaKingLiveBXNY wrote...

TIM has alot of these Shep's indoctrinated already it seems... You know he will be a enemy at some point next game whether u help him in me2 or not. As a paragon it shouldnt be an option to you to help him at the end and as a renegade you can clearly see he thinks he can give you order's and is using u. He wanted miranda to kill you..if u choose to blow up the base. She definately wasnt gonna just charm u out of doing it. He is clearly vindictive and manipulative. He only brings you back cause you are a hero, a good cover to bring others into helping him acheive his goals as you can see by NOONE wanting to help ceberus other than the fact Shepard was involved... If you die and give him they base he doesnt give a Sh*t about ya crew 's sacrifice he just wants the tech. That was obviously his aim from the beginning.

This list shows that he is ruthless and goal oriented.  None of it shows that he is a "bad guy" in the context of the Mass Effect trilogy.  Also, it just isn't true that nobody was willing to help Cerberus.  Zaeed was hired directly by them, Mordin had no problem working with them, Garrus was only skeptical for the length of one conversation.  The only squad members who were strongly opposed to Cerberus were Tali and Jack, and both had personal reasons for that opposition.

And I disagree that he will necessarily be an enemy in the next game.  I think if you both blew up the base and told him to shut up, he will probably be an enemy, because you chose to make him one.  If you kept the base and were polite to him in the end, he might be one of your most powerful allies in ME3.  If you blew it up and didn't tell him to shut up, or let him keep it and told him to shut up, it might get murkier.  Him wanting Miranda to kill you doesn't reveal him as a bad guy.  It just reveals that he is pure Renegade, and only considers Shepard an asset if he/she is willing to do what it takes to win.  TIM is far too pragmatic to be Shepard's enemy if Shep is willing to work with him.

[SofaKingLiveBXNY]

Yea I think this whole game was to set your Shepard up for the next one wheter you would be "good or bad" "paragon or renegade" "Pro-cerberus or pro-galatic peace" the game definately succeeds in that aspect because no matter how ppl justify the endgame they are too vastly different schools of thought and the dialogue in the whole game trys to steer you away from making one decision and if you make it anyway you are basically saying f that you want power and knowledge at whatever cost... Even if you work with TIM he never tires to be your friends he still tries to give you orders in a roundabout way and he still feels like you work for him because he as the power and resources...at the end of the day the only ones who fought for humanity were on ya squad. TIM sat in the office and slowly released info he already had and doesnt really care about the collectors being stopped at the end... he is worried about the tech. I mean what was he really going to find about stopping reapers on that base...? They got an off switch? You already kno they are not invincible so what was the big deal. TIM is too shaky for me.. I hope that decision really affects ME3 for everyone who made it because it was a bad one..

EDIT: You are shepard so if you go against what someone wants and they try to have you killed thats bad. And on a galatic level he wants humans(a relatively new species) to dominate all the rest...Thats not good. You said he was ruthless why be polite to him, sounds like someone that works for him...and early on Shepard tried to establish the fact that he is just working with him to stop the collectors what is the point of acting polite like he owns you. Noone would have risked thier lives for humans if not for shepard. Zaeed was a hired gun thats irrelevant he goes after the money and would probably double cross everyone for the right price. Garrus goes with it because you are his former commander you saved the galaxy together so he agress wit your judgement. Mordin wasnt opposed to it but he also wasnt on the team until SHEPARD recruited him so obviously TIM or cereberus wasnt able to get thru to him on thier own or didnt try..so it doesnt matter. The all-human crew is mostly all brand new t cereberus. even Dr. Chak wasnt there for them but for shepard and the crew so idk where this cereberus is good stuff is comin from...They were scared to tell you it was them at the beginning of the game and you been dead 2 years fresh out a coma..they knew it would be a problem if you join to fast they even say "oh we didnt think u would just be on board that easy" so IMO its not hard to tell whats really goin on wit them. I am fairly sure he will be an enemy the next game.. Id bet money on that actually even if you worked with them and saved him there will be a point where you influence is to powerful and you question his authority and he tries to kill you..you think he is just gonna just let you take over cereberus and he be under you.. or you just gonna work for him and agree when he tries to get tali or someone else killed... its bound to happen and u gonna choose do I want to be scumbag jr. or am I in control...but u can trust TIM if you want like I said I hope it actually makes a difference on your gameplay experience because thats is a drastic change in how one plays as Shepard.

Modifié par SofaKingLiveBXNY, 07 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[korraz]

Two words. David Xanatos.

Skadhi1 wrote...


Let's look at the present counsel races. The Asari at least agreed to the genocide of an entire race- the Rachni. No doubt the Solarians were complicit.

The Turians, along with the Asari and Solarians, then released the genophage on the Krogan - the same race that had helped them destroy the Rachni. Nice little reward to the former heros, eh?

You might should keep in mind, that the Rachni were about to kill everyone and the Krogans were on their way to Galaxy Domination? The Genophage is NOT genocide, it just controls the birthrate of the Krogans, who would otherwise simply overrun the entire galaxy. At first I felt exactly like that about the Krogans, if you spend some time with Mordin and then go to Tuchanka, you see the justification for that. Most of the Krogans are alienhating, bloodlusting combatmachines, with Wrex being an extreme exception. If they could, they would very happily kill everyone in the galaxy. Like Mordin said: You don't give A-Bombs to cavemen. He even admits it was all the fault of the Salarians, getting the Krogans of Tuchanka and handing them weapons. They were and are simply not ready for this, hell, most of them are half animals!
Saying that, I am a big friend of the Krogans and I really like Grunt and Wrex.

[aeetos21]

The Council f*cked up, in several spots past and present. They should pay for their crimes, but that doesn't excuse TIM and the sh*t he has Cerberus doing.



Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Caz Neerg]

korraz wrote...

Two words. David Xanatos.

Skadhi1 wrote...


Let's look at the present counsel races. The Asari at least agreed to the genocide of an entire race- the Rachni. No doubt the Solarians were complicit.

The Turians, along with the Asari and Solarians, then released the genophage on the Krogan - the same race that had helped them destroy the Rachni. Nice little reward to the former heros, eh?

You might should keep in mind, that the Rachni were about to kill everyone and the Krogans were on their way to Galaxy Domination? The Genophage is NOT genocide, it just controls the birthrate of the Krogans, who would otherwise simply overrun the entire galaxy. At first I felt exactly like that about the Krogans, if you spend some time with Mordin and then go to Tuchanka, you see the justification for that. Most of the Krogans are alienhating, bloodlusting combatmachines, with Wrex being an extreme exception. If they could, they would very happily kill everyone in the galaxy. Like Mordin said: You don't give A-Bombs to cavemen. He even admits it was all the fault of the Salarians, getting the Krogans of Tuchanka and handing them weapons. They were and are simply not ready for this, hell, most of them are half animals!
Saying that, I am a big friend of the Krogans and I really like Grunt and Wrex.

Your analysis of the Krogan is fair, but the game still shows curing the genophage as a Paragon position to take.  Hopefully BioWare will preserve the integrity of the story by having that turn out to be a really bad idea in the long run, rather than having all Paragon decisions lead to the best outcomes just because they are "Good," even when logic and the nature of the characters/cultures dictate a different result.

[korraz]

Yup, because of that, the Genophage-Stuff was always the time, when my Paragon-Shep takes the Renegade-Options. Except for the time with the formula, when I go for "Keep the formula, you might need it", since 1 of 1000 seems a bit harsh. Maybe, when the Krogans get a little better, Mordin (or someone else) could do the work to reduce the rate to, say, 1 of 800 or so.

[Skadhi1]

korraz wrote...

He even admits it was all the fault of the Salarians, getting the Krogans of Tuchanka and handing them weapons. They were and are simply not ready for this, hell, most of them are half animals!
Saying that, I am a big friend of the Krogans and I really like Grunt and Wrex.

Well...I recognize that it's just a game...and it's probably best to not get too serious...

Still, if you substitute the name of existing groups and organizations, right here and now on Earth, you get interesting results.  For example, the U.S. noted the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan in 1979, then supplied weapons such that the Afghans could bleed the Soviets.  But the same groups that defeated the Soviets then evolved into something else.  Interesting, isn't it?

When you consign a sentient species to the category of "most of them are half animals", one comes rather close to the mindset that puts some group of people into the same area.

Games are interesting.  Some of the implications can make one think.  Perhaps that's the highest compliment one can give to a game designer.

[Georilla]

TIM = Third antichrist, period.

[Abirn]

When you have a race of hyper advanced machines about to wipe out the galaxy then the ends do justify the means. We aren't talking stupid politics here people. This is a matter of survival not just for humans but every species in the galaxy,



It seems some people don't respect the seriousness of the situation.

[Caz Neerg]

They feel justified in ignoring the seriousness of the situation, because they don't approach the issue from a logical in-universe perspective, they approach it from the the perspective that BioWare will reward Paragon choices even when they don't make sense. Most of these people would probably be singing a different tune if this situation were real.

[korraz]

The problem is, you can't really compare the whole situation. Yes, it has some interesting paralells, but there are some slight differences: One Krogan is, according to the Codex, a nearly unstoppable killing machine of destruction. You need Anti-Tank-Weapons to kill them for sure, they don't care for radiation or poisoned air. They practically survive everything. And on top of that, they reproduce with an insane speed. Within a few years after the Rachni-War, where they must have had severe losses, they colonzied several systems and went one with it, no one being able to stop them. The statement that they are half animals might have gone a bit wrong, but what I meant was: They are only half on the way to real sapience. They are more or less still on the Cavemen "I hit you with this stone and take your wife"-Stage. Unfortionatly, we are talking of Stones of Mass Destruction. You can very well see how they hate nearly every other species, even those who had nothing to do with the Genophage! They simply hate them, for being weak. Now, of course, there are other Krogans! There are way more intelligent and understanding ones, like Wrex, or the mechanic. But let's face it: 90% of them are stupid brutes, who care only for one thing: Fighting. They don't care why or who they fight. And the REAL problem is, that now, being already thrown into space, they can't continue their evolution properly. They can't build up higher science or develop systems of morality. At the moment, ethics is to them "Kill the weak, but don't eat them" at best. Every "higher intelligent" (more or less) species will suffer of a severe breakdown in their birthrates, and until the Korgans come to that point, it must be achieved by the Genophage.

Now, I don't say this might be good or ethical, but it is plain simply the right thing. Having the Krogans wipe out and enslave everyone and then destroy the ENTIRE Galixy in a war, just for the sake of war, doesn't seem that good, huh? I don't think the Krogans would give a damn about the limitation of Planetdestructionweapons. Look a Tuchank! They are HAPPY about the fact, that the whole planet is a wasteland for the next 3, 400 years! And then they will build it up and destroy it AGAIN.

[Obadiah]

I think TIM in ME2 is supposed to react to Shepherd the way Anderson did in ME 1. If Shepherd is good, he seems perfectly reasonable - he's just got a ****** up past that you will have to make him answer for. I don't know what he's like if Shep is renegade, but I read somewhere on these forums he becomes more sinister.

[Hatire]

I personally think TIM is quite evil. The way they set up the opening of the game and then finding out later he lured you into a trap of the Collector ship, I personally think he is behind the Collector attacks themselves and your initial death. Then asking for the base, it just screams to me a plan to take over the galaxy.

[DuffyMJ]

Caz Neerg wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Well then frankly, you're wrong.  Justice is not about subjectivity, it's about fairness.  Procedures of justice have nothing to do with subjective values, and are all about fairness and equality.  If you let your subjective passions/beliefs guide your judgment, then you're not a "good guy", you're horribly biased.  

The nature of justice (and whether or not it is important to be just) is a matter of opinion, not fact, so it isn't possible for any view on it to be wrong.  Only for you to agree or disagree with it.  And there is no such thing as a person without bias, there are just people who admit their bias and those who try to pretend it doesn't exist.  Your subjective beliefs always guide your judgement.  The idea that decisions should be based on whatever promotes fairness and equality *is* a subjective belief.

Sociopaths are unbiased, they're physically incapable of empathy .  Fairness is not just about "pretending bias doesn't exist", it's about consistency.  You can have a point of reference or view, as long as you are consistent with it.  You can't argue that fairness is subjective, that's total nonsense.  Consistency is measurable.  Sentencing guidelines are measurable.  Attributions are measurable.  Discretionary decision-making is measurable in longitudinal study. 

It's impossible to be a pure renegade and consistent in Mass Effect.  It means you do not value ethics and only value ends.  This is proven by the similarities between the genophage research decision and the collector station decision.  For paragons, the decision in both cases is reconciling the ethics of the research (humans ground into bits against their will, live krogans experimented upon) and the promise of the research (putting the fate of an entire species in the hands of your ship's doctor who finds live subject experiments disgusting/preventing mass genocide in the hands of someone with no morals or ethics whatsoever).   For Renegades the means don't matter at all, all that matters is the results.

You can literally prevent over 3/4 of violent crime in America by incarcerating every adult male 18-24.  That's something you would agree with doing, right?  The ends justify the means, after all.  Think of how many women wouldn't be raped, how many people wouldn't be dead or robbed or otherwise inconvenienced if only we would enact a law stipulating that.  Who cares about whether it's fair or not?  That's completely subjective, anyway, right?

[DuffyMJ]

Abirn wrote...

When you have a race of hyper advanced machines about to wipe out the galaxy then the ends do justify the means. We aren't talking stupid politics here people. This is a matter of survival not just for humans but every species in the galaxy,

It seems some people don't respect the seriousness of the situation.

Sorry but if you go all "ends justify the means", then you're simply proving the Reapers correct that we are an error that needs to be cleansed.   The entire game goes out of its way beating into your head that civilizations cannot handle/mis-use the adaptation of too-far-advanced technology when they have the chance to do so, and yet here you are advocating that position.  Unbelievable.

[TheShady]

Obviously bad. He doesn't like the top options of the conversation wheel.

[Skadhi1]

korraz wrote...

But let's face it: 90% of them are stupid brutes, who care only for one thing: Fighting. They don't care why or who they fight. And the REAL problem is, that now, being already thrown into space, they can't continue their evolution properly. They can't build up higher science or develop systems of morality. At the moment, ethics is to them "Kill the weak, but don't eat them" at best..

If, in fact, they aren't intellectually capable - then an embargo would work.  Simply refuse to transport them.  Don't send in weapons.  But that won't work, because a few of them can make the various technological items.  I wonder - how many human beings could make a simple device, such as a radio or firearm.  Few, I think.

Let us turn, for a moment, to humanity.  A certain U.S. secretary of state, Henry Kissinger, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1973, is widely reputed (although not definitively proved) to have suggested the elimination of "useless eaters".  You can read more about the notion of controlling population growth with food as a weapon www.amerikanexpose.com/UNSystem/henry_kissinger.htm at the link, if you wish. 

Let us consider global illiteracy.  You can see more here: http://en.wikipedia....y_literacy_rate   What might an independent observer say about countries where less than half the population can read?  Are they "brutes?"  Or just "useless eaters"?  And our existing ethical condition is...what, exactly?

And, finally, a YouTube video of "The Warrior Song".  www.youtube.com/watch  Please watch it, and reflect for a moment on the sentiments expressed.  Could it be that we have a bit of Krogan within us?  Maybe more than a bit?

Our global population increased from about 2.5 billion in 1950 to 6.5 billion today.  Plot out that trend and extrapolate.  Fascinating implications, perhaps?

[Caz Neerg]

DuffyMJ wrote...
Sociopaths are unbiased, they're physically incapable of empathy .  Fairness is not just about "pretending bias doesn't exist", it's about consistency.  You can have a point of reference or view, as long as you are consistent with it.  You can't argue that fairness is subjective, that's total nonsense.  Consistency is measurable.  Sentencing guidelines are measurable.  Attributions are measurable.  Discretionary decision-making is measurable in longitudinal study. 

It's impossible to be a pure renegade and consistent in Mass Effect.  It means you do not value ethics and only value ends.  This is proven by the similarities between the genophage research decision and the collector station decision.  For paragons, the decision in both cases is reconciling the ethics of the research (humans ground into bits against their will, live krogans experimented upon) and the promise of the research (putting the fate of an entire species in the hands of your ship's doctor who finds live subject experiments disgusting/preventing mass genocide in the hands of someone with no morals or ethics whatsoever).   For Renegades the means don't matter at all, all that matters is the results.

You can literally prevent over 3/4 of violent crime in America by incarcerating every adult male 18-24.  That's something you would agree with doing, right?  The ends justify the means, after all.  Think of how many women wouldn't be raped, how many people wouldn't be dead or robbed or otherwise inconvenienced if only we would enact a law stipulating that.  Who cares about whether it's fair or not?  That's completely subjective, anyway, right?

It's a tangent, so I'll be brief about it, but no, sociopaths aren't unbiased.  Lack of empathy doesn't result in lack of preferences.  As for fairness, of course it is subjective.  Fairness and consistency aren't the same thing.  You could consistently punish shoplifting with the death penalty, but most would argue that that isn't a fair resolution.  If you go with the definition of fairness that it is characterized by lack of bias, then there is arguably no such thing as fairness.

As for consistency, no, it isn't subjective.  But there is no requirement that people value consistency.  Many would take the position that the punishment should fit the criminal, not the crime.  This would result in very inconsistent sentencing, but potentially have a very positive practical effect.  As for consistency and Paragon/Renegade meters, it is impossible to be pure anything in ME2 and be consistent.  Someone who rewrites the Geth and keeps the Krogan data despite the methods used to gather it probably wouldn't have a problem with keeping the Collector Station.

And no, I wouldn't agree with incarcerating all those people.  But that isn't because I don't think the ends justify the means, it's because I don't think the end of preventing 3/4 of violent crime is worth all of the problems that would result from such a mass incarceration.  And as a practical matter, I don't think it would actually prevent that much crime.  Most people who go to prison end up going back, so you would ultimately be causing more crime than was prevented, by creating a bunch of extra criminals.

Back on topic, I have yet to see anything that would indicate that the Illusive Man should be considered a bad guy in the context of ME2.  He is clearly a Renegade, but that doesn't make him bad unless you think Paragon = Always Right and Renegade = Always Wrong.

[stardawggie]

Adj. 1. illusive - based on or having the nature of an illusion; "illusive hopes of finding a better job"; "Secret activities offer presidents the alluring but often illusory promise that they can achieve foreign policy goals without the bothersome debate and open decision that are staples of democracy"
illusory
unreal - lacking in reality or substance or genuineness; not corresponding to acknowledged facts or criteria; "ghosts and other unreal entities"; "unreal propaganda serving as news"

The truth is named. He gives the appearance of being a man and serving the interests of humanity. Still, why they focus on his eyes the longer the game goes? They remind my Shep entirely too much of Saren. I do not know if TIM is indoctrinated...or if he is a reaper...or if, perhaps, he has actually "beaten" indoctrination and wants to use that tech to advance his own agenda. Or any number of other options.

What I do know is that every time that a member of a sentient race has been known to spend a large amount of time on a reaper vessel, alive or dead, they have succumbed to indoctrination. Like or dislike Saren, my Shep respected him and has no reason to think he was lacking in willpower. Therefore, my Shep has learned from the mistakes of the past and will find another way to beat the Reapers.

Besides, I believe it was Sovereign Itself who said that the Mass Effect relays and Citadel were left there to encourage civilizations to evolve along "Reaper Approved" lines. By deliberately refraining from using the Collector base, my Shep believes that he is doing something new that the Reapers have not prepared for

Modifié par stardawggie, 08 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[DaBigDragon]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

He's a dick.

LOL. QFT.

[Captain Crash]

He has his own best interests at heart not humanity's. He had to escape humanity so that he could propel himself out of boundaries of law. Outside this scope he can certainly propel humanities interests in a unethical way. But the rest of the galaxy sees Cerberus as a terrorist cell so by propelling humanity one way, humanity is pushed back another.

[Wolverfrog]

He's the personification of humanity. Intelligent, adaptive, ruthless, power hungry, greedy, survivalistic, caring, and utterly determined.



To stand against him is to stand against the things which make us who we are.

[Banquor]

Did you notice that if you blow up the station, the star in the background is blue instead of red?

And whatever happened with the side quest with the star aging faster than it was supposed to? Sounds like another Cerberus project...



I'm sure TIM will end up being the villian in ME3. We'll have to choose an evil to defeat Harbinger. But it looks like Harbinger may be bringing his extended family to the party. Maybe we'll actually get some ship to ship combat in ME3 too!

[DuffyMJ]

Caz Neerg wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
Sociopaths are unbiased, they're physically incapable of empathy .  Fairness is not just about "pretending bias doesn't exist", it's about consistency.  You can have a point of reference or view, as long as you are consistent with it.  You can't argue that fairness is subjective, that's total nonsense.  Consistency is measurable.  Sentencing guidelines are measurable.  Attributions are measurable.  Discretionary decision-making is measurable in longitudinal study. 

It's impossible to be a pure renegade and consistent in Mass Effect.  It means you do not value ethics and only value ends.  This is proven by the similarities between the genophage research decision and the collector station decision.  For paragons, the decision in both cases is reconciling the ethics of the research (humans ground into bits against their will, live krogans experimented upon) and the promise of the research (putting the fate of an entire species in the hands of your ship's doctor who finds live subject experiments disgusting/preventing mass genocide in the hands of someone with no morals or ethics whatsoever).   For Renegades the means don't matter at all, all that matters is the results.

You can literally prevent over 3/4 of violent crime in America by incarcerating every adult male 18-24.  That's something you would agree with doing, right?  The ends justify the means, after all.  Think of how many women wouldn't be raped, how many people wouldn't be dead or robbed or otherwise inconvenienced if only we would enact a law stipulating that.  Who cares about whether it's fair or not?  That's completely subjective, anyway, right?

It's a tangent, so I'll be brief about it, but no, sociopaths aren't unbiased.  Lack of empathy doesn't result in lack of preferences.  As for fairness, of course it is subjective.  Fairness and consistency aren't the same thing.  You could consistently punish shoplifting with the death penalty, but most would argue that that isn't a fair resolution.  If you go with the definition of fairness that it is characterized by lack of bias, then there is arguably no such thing as fairness.

As for consistency, no, it isn't subjective.  But there is no requirement that people value consistency.  Many would take the position that the punishment should fit the criminal, not the crime.  This would result in very inconsistent sentencing, but potentially have a very positive practical effect.  As for consistency and Paragon/Renegade meters, it is impossible to be pure anything in ME2 and be consistent.  Someone who rewrites the Geth and keeps the Krogan data despite the methods used to gather it probably wouldn't have a problem with keeping the Collector Station.

And no, I wouldn't agree with incarcerating all those people.  But that isn't because I don't think the ends justify the means, it's because I don't think the end of preventing 3/4 of violent crime is worth all of the problems that would result from such a mass incarceration.  And as a practical matter, I don't think it would actually prevent that much crime.  Most people who go to prison end up going back, so you would ultimately be causing more crime than was prevented, by creating a bunch of extra criminals.

Back on topic, I have yet to see anything that would indicate that the Illusive Man should be considered a bad guy in the context of ME2.  He is clearly a Renegade, but that doesn't make him bad unless you think Paragon = Always Right and Renegade = Always Wrong.

He can be a renegade all he wants, but persisting in actions despite the condemnation of the mass consensus (the citadel council, the alliance, likely even the terra firma party, and every single alien species in the galaxy) pretty firmly places him in the "bad" corner.  I don't care what his external representations advocate/claim, they are irrelavant.  You can say "I'm doing the right thing because I truly believe in my heart of hearts that it's for the best!" but that doesn't mean **** because the ends don't justify the means, you're defined by the ethics of your actions which can be judged by consistency, fairness, and respect to societal mores and the greater social consensus.  Humanity has already written the universal declaration of human rights, which can be easily scaled to apply to all thinking/sentient beings in the galaxy.  You may not personally subscribe to that code, but when you're making decisions that impact entire societies, you better damn well respect society's values.  Shepard was chosen to represent humanity in the Spectres because he's supposed to be the best humanity had to offer, not a ****g punk who thinks it's okay to be a total dbag to "get the job done".  Seriously, please stop trying to rationalize poor ethics, I feel like I'm talking to Dick Cheney or something.