207 réponses à ce sujet

[Chuvvy]

TIM is the definition of Lawful Evil.

[maegi46]

Slidell505 wrote...

TIM is the definition of Lawful Evil.

I played D & D so I know lawful evil means you follow a hierarchy and a set of rules on your way to becoming a supreme overlord, Demon, whatever. TIM answers to no one so he's making his own rules, more like Chaotic Evil or Neutral evil. hell maybe even Chaotic good.

[omgodzilla]

I'd follow the illusive man to hell and back.

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

omgodzilla wrote...

I'd follow the illusive man to hell and back.

Who wouldn't? Imagine the story!

[The_Blue_Passion]

Slidell505 wrote...

TIM is the definition of Lawful Evil.

That would imply that TIM follows rules to be evil,which he doesn't.

Chaotic Neutral suits him more.

[Janus Invictus]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

Even in the ASCENSION novel, it's clear Drew Karpyshyn thinks he's a bad guy.

QFT.  The Illusive Man may be suave and working to coerce a nicer workforce these days, and he may profess to be the hero when all others fail miserably, but the fact remains that he is working towards evil ends.  It's interesting to see that blowing up the Collector Base made him totally lose his cool, to the point where he attempted to assert ownership of Shepard in order to express his rage.  A man who thinks he has it all figured out and is in control of everything takes losing very poorly.  

However, you could also argue that some pragmatic part of the Illusive Man works in good interests.  For example, the survivors of Horizon are given financial aid, and the victimized crew of Jacob's father are given medical aid without question, even though they are not Cerberus and technically offer no benefit to the organization.  On one hand, TIM notes that he can exploit racists and criminals who are human to gain a foothold on the Citadel where anti-human politics are becoming more popular, but on the other he spends resources on humans with no apparent return other than knowing he's helping them.  This doesn't appear to be the act of someone who is utterly evil, unless his ethical code is that much black and white or he's going to use it as leverage in the future.  Who knows?

[Costin_Razvan]

As Catherine the Great once said: “I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.”

Those in High Positions of power don't have the luxury to make the right moral choices. They have to and will make terrible ones. At the end of the Day TIM is a good guy because he stands for promoting and preserving humanity, even though it's at any cost and he does take extreme measures to try and protect humanity from the Reapers ( who the hell wouldn't? ) he is not evil.

Comparing TIM to Hitler or Stalin is wrong on SOOO many levels that I can't even begin to list them.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 17 juillet 2010 - 07:29 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I wouldn't say Overlord DLC was something done to rise humans above others, but to combat the Geth which are a grave threat for when the Reapers come.



Gillian wasn't so unethical in my opinion....they did what exactly? They gave her a serum that was supposed to increase her biotic abilities....sure they did an overdose at the end, but that was a mistake ( and mistakes can happen, it doesn't need to be an evil choice or something ).



Yes, we have Sanders say that she THINKS it might be that because of the Serum that Gillian continues to be autistic, but we also have Sanders also think it might because of the fact she was taken from the Academy and all the kids there.



Cerberus gave her someone which worked as her father, and he did love her very much and a real life....for an Orphan that's not so bad I think....

[Voutsis1982]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Gillian wasn't so unethical in my opinion....they did what exactly? They gave her a serum that was supposed to increase her biotic abilities....sure they did an overdose at the end, but that was a mistake ( and mistakes can happen, it doesn't need to be an evil choice or something ).

What made Gillian's treatment unethical was that there was no contingency for failure. When the mistake was made, the girl ends up convulsing on the floor with no one around who knows what's actually inside her, and no idea of what could be used the neutralise the dose. The guy who injected her? More interested in covering his own ass, and tasers the bleep out of the guy who actually does the work and saves her.

The thing is that this is a predictable situation, maybe even an inevitable one. They're messing with cutting edge technology and the brainchemistry of a borderline-autistic child. You can't bank on everything going smoothly, and you have to have a plan for when it doesn't. That's why it was unethical.

One reason, anyway. I have an itch in the back of my head about experimenting on humans, informed consent of patient, guardian and carers when it comes to treatment methods, there might be some ethics stuff like that. And ethics isn't just about making things go right - when things go wrong, the appropriate party is held responsible. And the Illusive Man is insulated against any consequences of his mistakes.

Modifié par Voutsis1982, 17 juillet 2010 - 12:24 .

[Sajuro]

RAMBO 46 wrote...

ShoepZA wrote...

if you romance TIM you find out

yeah you find out he's a f*cking reaper with 20in d*ck

dick so big it'll blow your brains out!

[Sajuro]

omgodzilla wrote...

I'd follow the illusive man to hell and back.

I'd follow him to hell, shoot him in the back of the head and leave him there before wandering out of hell.

[wulf3n]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Comparing TIM to Hitler or Stalin is wrong on SOOO many levels that I can't even begin to list them.

I dunno, i can see some similarities with that TIM has with Hitler, not so much Stalin, but then again i don't know much about Stalin.

Let's see...
 - Willing to attack allies.
 - Believing superiority over other races.
 - Willing to commit mass murder of non-combatants.

and that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure i could come up with more if i tried.

[Costin_Razvan]

Let's see...

- Willing to attack allies.

- Believing superiority over other races.

- Willing to commit mass murder of non-combatants.

Where is TIM willing to attack allies huh? I don't see it happening to any of Cerberus's allies....



As for believing to be superior to other races...what the hell led you to believe that TIM thinks so? Yes he feels humanity in terms of Political Power should be on top of the other races, but so does EVERY OTHER single alien race on the Council.



As for committing mass murder on civilians, where huh? On Horizon by setting a trap for the Collectors? That's not mass murder comited by him, that's a strategic decision to draw your enemy in.

[thegreateski]

TIM is not a good guy or a bad guy.



For now.

[wulf3n]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Where is TIM willing to attack allies huh? I don't see it happening to any of Cerberus's allies....

Ok technically not allies, but kills HUMAN alliance troops, the very people Cerberus is trying to help. example: Toombs.
edit: Doesn't Cerberus even try to kill Shepard in one of the back stories...Sole survivor? i may be wrong i cant remember.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for believing to be superior to other races...what the hell led you to believe that TIM thinks so? Yes he feels humanity in terms of Political Power should be on top of the other races, but so does EVERY OTHER single alien race on the Council.

While he may not say humans are superior to aliens, he believes humans should have dominion over ALL other alien races whereas  the other council races recognize the benefits of mutual cooperation with other species. I haven't seen any example where say the Turians have tried to remove the asari from the council. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but we have no precedent that shows the other council races seek superiority.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for committing mass murder on civilians, where huh? On Horizon by setting a trap for the Collectors? That's not mass murder comited by him, that's a strategic decision to draw your enemy in.

That happens in Ascension, but i won't go into it because of spoilers.

Modifié par wulf3n, 18 juillet 2010 - 05:41 .

[ice445]

He's "good" in the sense that he actually does things that benefit humanity as a whole. However, the means he uses to achieve his goals are far from good. So, to humans he's cool, to other alien races he's just a dick.

[Costin_Razvan]

Ok technically not allies, but kills HUMAN alliance troops, the very people Cerberus is trying to help. example: Toombs.

edit: Doesn't Cerberus even try to kill Shepard in one of the back stories...Sole survivor? i may be wrong i cant remember.

Is there any proof that Cerberus is responsible for Akuze? I didn't find any. Yes they did take Toombs and experimented on him but is there any proof they lured the marines there beyond what Toombs says?



Yes they did lure those marines in ME1, but just because they are human they are NOT allies.

While he may not say humans are superior to aliens, he believes humans should have dominion over ALL other alien races whereas the other council races recognize the benefits of mutual cooperation with other species. I haven't seen any example where say the Turians have tried to remove the asari from the council. That doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but we have no precedent that shows the other council races seek superiority.

He doesn't say anything about seeking to dominate all the other races ( that sounds like something from LOTR btw ) but that he wants to promote and strengthen humanity. Miranda ( the biggest Cerberus loyalist ) says that Cerberus is about the advancement of the human race nothing more nothing less.

That happens in Ascension, but i won't go into it because of spoilers.

Your comparing to kill the people of a single quarian ship to the deaths caused by the Holocaust for no apparent reason? There is a good reason to try and not leave any evidence behind in that scenario there was no real reason for the Holocaust deaths.

[wulf3n]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Is there any proof that Cerberus is responsible for Akuze? I didn't find any. Yes they did take Toombs and experimented on him but is there any proof they lured the marines there beyond what Toombs says?

Yes they did lure those marines in ME1, but just because they are human they are NOT allies.

They're the people Cerberus is claiming to be helping! To me that's worse than killing your allies.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
He doesn't say anything about seeking to dominate all the other races ( that sounds like something from LOTR btw ) but that he wants to promote and strengthen humanity. Miranda ( the biggest Cerberus loyalist ) says that Cerberus is about the advancement of the human race nothing more nothing less.

Actually he does if you destroy the collector base. something about having the collector base ensuring human dominance.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Your comparing to kill the people of a single quarian ship to the deaths caused by the Holocaust for no apparent reason? There is a good reason to try and not leave any evidence behind in that scenario there was no real reason for the Holocaust deaths.

A single quarian ship can contain thousands of quarians, enough to be called mass murder IMO. Every action has a reason whether we understand it or not,  and a reason isn't a justification, anyone that thinks so, is screwed up in the head.

Modifié par wulf3n, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:51 .

[Costin_Razvan]

They're the people Cerberus is claiming to be helping! To me that's worse than killing your allies.

They claim to be wanting to advance the human race, they don't claim to be looking after every human in the galaxy. Looking out for humanity's interests doesn't mean looking out to protect every human.

Actually he does if you destroy the collector base. something about having the collector base ensuring human dominance.

Human Dominance in Politics does not equal to Dominating every other race in the Galaxy.

Every action has a reason whether we understand it or not, and a reason isn't a justification, anyone that thinks so, is screwed up in the head.

If you are saying the motive behind an action is not a justification then perhaps you should talk to a lawyer about that in the situation of murder. If they don't call you an idiot ( in more pleasant words ) and say no then I would very much surprised.



And btw. War is all about mass murder, even if it's just soldiers killing other soldiers.

[wulf3n]

Fair enough, i'll concede the first point.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Human Dominance in Politics does not equal to Dominating every other race in the Galaxy.

I doubt TIM wants the Collector Base for the "Political" dominance it will give him.

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you are saying the motive behind an action is not a justification then perhaps you should talk to a lawyer about that in the situation of murder. If they don't call you an idiot ( in more pleasant words ) and say no then I would very much surprised.

.... Ok took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say there, i think you should probably re-word it, because what you and the lawyer said agrees with my point. Motive ISN'T a justification for murder! I never said it was. What i said, was everyone has a reason for everything they do, but a reason is not a justification. Just because TIM had a reason to blow up the quarian ship does not mean there was justification to do so.

motive -  the REASON for a certain course of action, whether conscious or unconscious

justification - something (such as a fact or circumstance) that shows an action to be reasonable or necessary

Costin_Razvan wrote...
And btw. War is all about mass murder, even if it's just soldiers killing other soldiers.

WHAT WAR!!!!! humans are not at war with the quarians. And if you can't see a difference between soldiers killing soldiers, and soldiers killing INNOCENT people, then i worry about you.

Modifié par wulf3n, 18 juillet 2010 - 08:44 .

[wulf3n]

sorry double post 

Modifié par wulf3n, 18 juillet 2010 - 08:35 .

[Costin_Razvan]

 

WHAT WAR!!!!! humans are not at war with the quarians. And if you can't see a difference between soldiers killing soldiers, and soldiers killing INNOCENT people, then i worry about you.

There is no such thing as innocent people in war. Non-combatants now that's something else but I very much doubt the Quarians have such a thing as non-combatants. ( save the Children ) Every Quarian is trained to use a weapon or more, even their engineers are not non-combatants. 
The Quarians allowing three runways from Cerberus to be sheltered inside their fleet is an act of war.

.... Ok took me a while to figure out what you were trying to say there, and motive ISN'T a justification for murder!

Motive plays a very big role in convicting someone, in fact it's probably the biggest reason. Cerberus is justified for trying to blow that ship up so no one in the Quarian fleet can find out they were there, and as I said, the Quarians committed an act of war by taking in those running from Cerberus.

Or perhaps you feel they just walk away with the Kid and leave the Quarians to find out who did that...yes that's a very smart strategic decision.

You want to talk about justified mass murder? Hiroshima. Completely justified by the American Government and many people in the USA.

Oh and please don't defend the Quarians. If you want to talk about mass murder then look no further then them, they seek to wipe out the Geth ( or at least most of them do ) or enslave them. Two Admirals felt the Geth should be enslaved while a third felt they should be killed, only one feels they should not be killed or enslaved and the last one just feels that seeking a war with the Geth is a wrong decision.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 18 juillet 2010 - 08:52 .

[wulf3n]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
There is no such thing as innocent people in war

...is what guilty people tell themselves so they can sleep at night. and again WHAT WAR!!!!!!!!

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Non-combatants now that's something else but I very much doubt the Quarians have such a thing as non-combatants. ( save the Children ) Every Quarian is trained to use a weapon or more, even their engineers are not non-combatants.

The attack was an unprovoked act of aggression, meaning every quarian that died, was innocent with respect to that conflict.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Quarians allowing three runways from Cerberus to be sheltered inside their fleet is an act of war.

1) Sheltering refugees is NOT considered an act of war.
2) None of the people seeking refuge ever swore allegiance to Cerberus, thus Cerberus has no claim to them.
3) Destroying a Civilian transport IS considered an act of war, and humanity was lucky that the quarians make a distinction between humanity and Cerberus.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Motive plays a very big role in convicting someone, in fact it's probably the biggest reason. Cerberus is justified for trying to blow that ship up so no one in the Quarian fleet can find out they were there, and as I said, the Quarians committed an act of war by taking in those running from Cerberus.

Yes I agree completely but trying to abduct an innocent child, and probably murder two people is hardly considered justified. I think if you told a court, that the reason you killed thousands of people was to cover up an abduction and double homicide, you'd be given the electric chair, even in countries, that don't have capital punishment.  And a blown up ship still leaves evidence. Evidence that probably would have lead to the quarians believing all of humanity responsible, potentially causing a war neither side could afford.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Or perhaps you feel they just walk away with the Kid and leave the Quarians to find out who did that...yes that's a very smart strategic decision.

No i think that would be a bad strategic decision, but a worse decision, is to risk a war with a species that has the largest fleet in the known galaxy!

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Oh and please don't defend the Quarians. If you want to talk about mass murder then look no further then them, they seek to wipe out the Geth ( or at least most of them do ) or enslave them. Two Admirals felt the Geth should be enslaved while a third felt they should be killed, only one feels they should not be killed or enslaved and the last one just feels that seeking a war with the Geth is a wrong decision.

I've never defended the quarians actions against the geth, nor would I. But your assumption about "most of the quarians wanting to destroy the geth" has no basis from what i can tell, from the few quarians you can actually probe on the subject it's split practically down the middle as to those who want war, and those who want peace, and also completely irrelevant to the current conversation, as Cerberus' actions were not based or influenced upon the quarians attitude towards the geth.

Modifié par wulf3n, 18 juillet 2010 - 09:22 .