107 réponses à ce sujet

[fogofeternity]

In general I'm a big fan that ME is more subtle about what's paragon/renegade, and most things are ultimately a shade of gray. If they took out the whole "paragon is on the top of the dialogue wheel and renegade is on the bottom" from ME3 it'd be even more natural.

Most of the time even renegade moves are done for a reason. There are at least a couple of times where it just seems to be a case of being dick, though. They seem to jar a bit. If I'm taking the renegade path then I'm working on the basis of renegade = practical, get the job done. Not renegade = evil bastard.

e.g.

Pushing the merc off the building when recruiting Thane. Shepard gains no benefit from doing so, it's murder for the sake of murder.

Telling Elias Kelham that Mouse was the person who ratted him out. It's pretty clear from your conversation with Mouse that Elias will just have him killed, and again there's absolutely zero advantage to Shep giving Mouse up.

Any others?

[Twitchmonkey]

fogofeternity wrote...
Pushing the merc off the building when recruiting Thane. Shepard gains no benefit from doing so, it's murder for the sake of murder.

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

[fogofeternity]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

I'm not sure withholding information equates to forfeiting his right to live.

Yeah, the Elnora thing also. It's only after you kill her that get justification for your action. Which is nice, but you're right, it doesn't justify killing her with the information you have at the time.

[Frotality]

firstly shades of gray are impossible to have when every major dialouge requires an extensive dedication to your respective naughty/nice meters; ME2 was even worse in this regard because now your choices in conversation rely soley on your morality, and there is still no middleground, just blue and red. morality in ME3 needs to left to the player, not blatantly and biasly spelled out for us in blue or red.

secondly, choosing morinth is neither a renegade or paragon choice as the game would like you to believe, just an idiotic choice; replace the vastly more experienced and dedicated ally with her daughter that wants to kill you with sex, yes, thats so getting the job done at any cost.

[The_mango55]

Letting the "biotic god" attack the Eclipse boss. It's not like he weakened her up.

[Highdragonslayer]

fogofeternity wrote...

In general I'm a big fan that ME is more subtle about what's paragon/renegade, and most things are ultimately a shade of gray. If they took out the whole "paragon is on the top of the dialogue wheel and renegade is on the bottom" from ME3 it'd be even more natural.

Most of the time even renegade moves are done for a reason. There are at least a couple of times where it just seems to be a case of being dick, though. They seem to jar a bit. If I'm taking the renegade path then I'm working on the basis of renegade = practical, get the job done. Not renegade = evil bastard.

e.g.

Pushing the merc off the building when recruiting Thane. Shepard gains no benefit from doing so, it's murder for the sake of murder.

Telling Elias Kelham that Mouse was the person who ratted him out. It's pretty clear from your conversation with Mouse that Elias will just have him killed, and again there's absolutely zero advantage to Shep giving Mouse up.

Any others?

     Shep killed those mercs because they are the enemy, anyone who doesn't die will just be back to shoot him later.

[Orogenic]

Hmm.. I always equate renegade with stupid, so I expect renegade choices to be lacking in the logic department....

[Vorscythe]

In Legion's loyalty mission, I was shocked as hell to see that killing the rebel geth was the Renegade option. I mean, manipulating the minds of a sentient species is the 'nice guy' approach?

[Twitchmonkey]

The_mango55 wrote...

Letting the "biotic god" attack the Eclipse boss. It's not like he weakened her up.

Yeah, I guess that's pretty bad, though unlike many renegade choices, it's more of a matter of what you don't do than what you do.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

There are no pointless Renegade moves. That guy was going to die anyway. If he didn't run into Shepard in the hall, he would've ran into Shepard in combat. His death was going to come, and since he was being an ass, he received the most painful death possible.



I think for the Elnora thing, that was mainly for metagaming. You let her go, and eventually found out that she did it, thus making you want to kill her the next time you get there. At least, that's how it worked for me, and once I get to Samara, I'm killing that chick.



As for Mouse, some people just like to be dicks. Video games are an outlet, you know.

[Kreidian]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

If you pay attention to the details you'll realize there's plenty of reason to kill her. You are warned several times that all of the Eclipse sisters are dangerous murderers. And in fact you are told flat out that all Eclipse recruits must commit a murder in order to earn their uniform. Elnora is wearing an Eclipse uniform when you meet her. Beyond that she's one of the enemy and she's pulling a gun on you. Reason enough to shoot her.

[Highdragonslayer]

Vorscythe wrote...

In Legion's loyalty mission, I was shocked as hell to see that killing the rebel geth was the Renegade option. I mean, manipulating the minds of a sentient species is the 'nice guy' approach?

     Grey area it's like how the paragon choice in dialogue with the genophage is how it's terrible and the Renegade is that it had to be done. It's a grey area and doesn't make much sense.

[Twitchmonkey]

Kreidian wrote...
If you pay attention to the details you'll realize there's plenty of reason to kill her. You are warned several times that all of the Eclipse sisters are dangerous murderers. And in fact you are told flat out that all Eclipse recruits must commit a murder in order to earn their uniform. Elnora is wearing an Eclipse uniform when you meet her. Beyond that she's one of the enemy and she's pulling a gun on you. Reason enough to shoot her.

I never could make sense of who was simply an Eclipse soldier and who was an Eclipse soldier or merc. Are all female Eclipse members Sisters? I never saw that listed as an enemy name. At least I remember thinking that at the time.

Grey area it's like how the paragon choice in dialogue with the
genophage is how it's terrible and the Renegade is that it had to be
done. It's a grey area and doesn't make much sense.

I think the genophage choice makes sense. Renegades aren't evil, they just tend to think the end justifies the means. Sabotaging a species' breeding abilities is cruel, but it avoids a possible disaster with the Krogan taking over the galaxy.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 06 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[Tamcia]

Honestly - renegade is for the "Rambo destoyer wannabees". Seems they are brainless with only shootng in mind. Last choice of savng cllector base felt like renegade is just a tool really. Paragon choice of telling illusive man to go **** himself and do things your way is much cooler.

[fogofeternity]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

     Grey area it's like how the paragon choice in dialogue with the genophage is how it's terrible and the Renegade is that it had to be done. It's a grey area and doesn't make much sense.

Yeah, sometimes the paragon option seems more like the kind of ivory tower intellectual. They'll empathise in the most politically correct way, and then screw you over anyway. Whereas the renegade is more straight down the line.

[Khavos]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

fogofeternity wrote...
Pushing the merc off the building when recruiting Thane. Shepard gains no benefit from doing so, it's murder for the sake of murder.

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

So you have a problem with shooting a mercenary that's pulling a gun on you in a hostile base?  Your average cop would've shot her ass, too, no matter how much she protested she was innocent. 

[Juxtest]

fogofeternity wrote...
Pushing the merc off the building when recruiting Thane. Shepard gains no benefit from doing so, it's murder for the sake of murder.

When I pushed that guy he was threatening to call the mercs in the next room. The mercs who had guns and orders to shoot anyone on sight. It was self defense, really.

And I did it during a full on Paragon run.

Modifié par Juxtest, 07 février 2010 - 06:06 .

[tmp7704]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

 The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

She's in the process of pulling the shotgun to shoot you in the face when the prompt happens. It's not pointless but simple act of self-defence from someone who for all you know is trying to kill you.

[Collider]

I killed Elnora because she pulled out a gun while talking to Shepard. Meaning I used the interrupt. Better safe than sorry. Plus you need to factor in that Shepard, if you ask around, finds out that every Eclipse mercenary has to kill someone in cold blood to be recruited in. So even if you actually believe Elnora doesn't want to be part of Eclipse anymore, you have to factor in the fact that a kill is required to join. I didn't let her live so maybe she tried to say that a friend had her join and she didn't actually kill anyone. Still, you can't ignore the recruiting requirement.

[Killian113]

With Elnora I thought she was going to shoot my Paragon Shep in the back so I pulled the trigger. Then I felt ok about because she ended up being a murderer. Tho in my next playthrough I let it go and realized I had basically shot her in cold blood.

[tmp7704]

The_mango55 wrote...

Letting the "biotic god" attack the Eclipse boss. It's not like he weakened her up.

I let him enter first thinking he might make a good distraction if nothing else. You have no way to really tell he actually isn't competent biotic -- he's got the amp glow and all. Neither you can tell the game will treat you to the cutscene, ruining any distraction the guy could provide.

[Schneidend]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

I agree on the window guy. Moreover, he might have attempted to shoot Shepard in the back if you let him live.

Elnora might be a rookie, but she's only pretending to surrender to get you to drop her guard. She draws first, so you shoot her. At least, that's how it played out for me.

As for the most pointless Renegade moves, all the ones I've seen have been pretty good. I can't think of one that doesn't serve some purpose.

Modifié par Schneidend, 07 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[notphrog]

fogofeternity wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

I don't have much of a problem with that as he was withholding information and in doing so forfeited his right to live. The most pointless renegade move I can think of is killing Elnora in the mission to recruit Samara. In reality she committed the murder, but from what you know at the time she's just a rookie that doesn't know anything and is surrendering.

I'm not sure withholding information equates to forfeiting his right to live.

Yeah, the Elnora thing also. It's only after you kill her that get justification for your action. Which is nice, but you're right, it doesn't justify killing her with the information you have at the time.

Elnora is pulling a gun on you when you shoot her! Even before you activate the interupt.

[Internet Kraken]

Killing Samara and replacing her with Morinth.



I was surprised when the game even gave me the option to choose. Picking Morinth isn't the renegade choice. It's the incredibly stupid choice. You're going to sacrifice the veteran biotic warrior for her psychopathic daughter? The one that just tried to eat your brain? That's just silly.

[Schneidend]

Internet Kraken wrote...

Killing Samara and replacing her with Morinth.

I was surprised when the game even gave me the option to choose. Picking Morinth isn't the renegade choice. It's the incredibly stupid choice. You're going to sacrifice the veteran biotic warrior for her psychopathic daughter? The one that just tried to eat your brain? That's just silly.

Oh, right. Forgot about this one.

Yeah, this gets my vote, too. Morinth would be an extreme liability on the mission. Renegades hate liabilities.