207 réponses à ce sujet

[BLY78NOR]

Hizoka003 wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Khavos wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Their games are targeted at a competely different audience

Who're they targeting?

Who's Bioware targeting?

Seeing as how Blizzard only make PC games it's pretty clear who their target audience is while ME was a 360 game ported to PCs later

Where do you think the majority of Biowars profits from these 2 games come from?

lets look at your ignorance a moment... first they were both made concurrently second DAO was made for PC then adapted to XBox and third SW:TOR will be PC only

RPGs are best suited for PCs now... hell PS3 and XBox lose footing every day in the console market to the Wii... it will not be long before games start going back to PC.. hell PC is where it is at now because consoles are out dated and limiting game makers...

Actually ME was made as a 360 game and released 6 months before the PC version it made a lot more money

What does DA:O and SW: TOR have to do with anything when we're talking about ME?

ME is not DA:O or SW: TOR it's ME, so why do you insist that it should be more like them when it was never meant to be? Bioware is throwing 2 games your way within a year and you're ****ing about them not catering to your minorty tastes in a 3rd one? lol

How many times has consoles been outdated in the past only for new once to come out? are you really this dense, PC has been an option every time and console gen is nearing it's end yet more and more people still chose consoles, why would this time be any different...? here you are calling me ignorant 

[BLY78NOR]

Hizoka003 wrote...

it seems people no longer know what an RPG is because they don't seem to make good ones anymore

or it could be that they do, but some people insist on living in the past...

[DKnightPortela]

Sidney wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Actually, you're kind of incorrect.  You'd have a few roles.  Roach and Martinez spring to mind.  They certainly both drive the story.  All you're lacking is dialogue options which get you to the exact same place no matter how you choose to handle them in terms of the plot, and you're set.  You'd already have more customization inherent in MW2 than in ME2 to boot.

...and here we see the problem. Names roles. The role has to create changes in the stroyline. Again, the mute protagonist of Bioshock is a "role" but, and this is the whole point of the game, he has no free-will in the game. No one in MW2 has any free-will in the game. Gordon Freeman has no real free will. Shep does.

You can try the "it all goes the same place" to which I then ask you to produce any CRPG that is an RPG then. BG2 - all roads lead to freeing Imoen and then fighting Irencius. KOTOR all roads lead to the the Star Forge. JE, all roads lead to your master, DOA all roads lead to the Archdemon.

I dont remember being denied entry in any planet that i already didnt went to in ME1, KOTOR or village in DA:O that werent in the script denied for a REALISTIC reason like the forge planet (endgame so no need to go back) or Illos (endgame also) or that village which i forget that name for a reason that would constitute spoiler so i wont tell it here... Oh wait ME2 has that we´re denied entry in levels that we did before!!! What a revelation!!! And the Citadel also just shrunk to a american lifesize shopping mall amazing!!!... Yes definitly evolved LOADS of roleplay where im denied entry very similar to, wait, SHOOTER GAMES!!! 

Modifié par DKnightPortela, 07 février 2010 - 10:21 .

[CFlash]

I agree 100%!

****** OR GTFO classic inventory system or SOUND explanation, why Shep went pirating creepy guns (remember manufacturing rights in codex for machinegun?). Or add hard as hell mission for obtaining guns bluprints\\examples.

All DLC armor stuff should be subject for helmet removal and customization, as you've done in DAO\\ME1. I do miss medical exo.
Bring back ammo upgrades at least, accroding to ME1 codex ammo mod switching is not harder than reloading clip in current weapons.  (same stuff, add missions for obtaining those mod and training how to use 'em)

If I want to play a shooter, I'd play some EPIC or ID game, Crysis, or any other action packed game...
If i want to play a BioWare game labeled as "RPG" I DO want to play a BioWare RPG, not some shooter

+100%


ehm... PLEASE! 

PS. team nursing plot is very touchy, thanx.
pps. do not listen to EA, they worship Reapers!

[Sidney]

TJSolo wrote...

Inventory management is a choice. You could pick one armor and simple mods and never touch your inventory again while others have the choice to sort through the inventory as they please.

Obliterating said choice no matter how illusionary;is the problem.

No, because as I level up I need money and better weapons and that means I have to dribble around through the inventory. Inventory system aren't optional in any RPG if they exist.

Why do you find them fun? Really, I'm dying to have anyone explain the fun and joy of sifting items, looting corpses and selling to merchants.

You still get the thrill of discovery in ME2's model (scanning new weapons and upgrades) it is just that you don't get the thrill of finding  the equivilent of  8 sets of Rough Leather Boots, 2 small shields, 12 potions and so on and so on.

[reepneep]

lukandroll wrote...
If I want to play a shooter, I'd play some EPIC or ID game, Crysis, or any other action packed game...
If i want to play a BioWare game labeled as "RPG" I DO want to play a BioWare RPG, not some shooter

It IS an RPG.  It apparently just doesn't meet your lootgrinding and spreadsheet quota.  A game is an RPG because it gives the player control over the narrative, not because it forces them to spend hours playing lootris.

I'll praise this game to high heaven for freeing me from dealing with piles of vendor trash for hours so I could get to the actually fun parts of the game:  combat and storytelling.  Granted I wish the combat and character development mechanics were more complex, but it's a small price to pay for not having to spend 1/3 of the game messing with my inventory.

medlish wrote...

What I don't care about:
-Stats
-Inventory

What I DO care about:
-Dialogue
-Decisions

Also
more exploration would be nice but is not a must. Actually ME battles
are a bit crappy so I'm mostly positive about the change.

This gentleman gets it.

Modifié par reepneep, 07 février 2010 - 10:29 .

[Khavos]

Sidney wrote...

No, because as I level up I need money and better weapons and that means I have to dribble around through the inventory. Inventory system aren't optional in any RPG if they exist.

Why do you find them fun? Really, I'm dying to have anyone explain the fun and joy of sifting items, looting corpses and selling to merchants.

You still get the thrill of discovery in ME2's model (scanning new weapons and upgrades) it is just that you don't get the thrill of finding  the equivilent of  8 sets of Rough Leather Boots, 2 small shields, 12 potions and so on and so on.

You got the thrill of discovery in ME2's model?  Really?

"SWEET!  +10% DAMAGE!"

"OH MAN, +20% DAMAGE!  WHERE COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE GOING?"  

Loot's fun and people like it.  You may not, but there're at least 11 million people out there who'd agree with me. 

[Khavos]

reepneep wrote...

It IS an RPG.  It apparently just doesn't meet your lootgrinding and spreadsheet quota.  A game is an RPG because it gives the player control over the narrative, not because it forces them to spend hours playing lootris.

You think you have control over the narrative?  Bioware's specifically said that you don't. 

[Sidney]

DKnightPortela wrote...
I dont remember being denied entry in any planet that i already didnt went to in ME1, KOTOR or village in DA:O that werent in the script denied for a REALISTIC reason like the forge planet (endgame so no need to go back) or Illos (endgame also) or that village which i forget that name for a reason that would constitute spoiler so i wont tell it here... Oh wait ME2 has that we´re denied entry in levels that we did before!!! What a revelation!!! And the Citadel also just shrunk to a american lifesize shopping mall amazing!!!... Yes definitly evolved LOADS of roleplay where im denied entry very similar to, wait, SHOOTER GAMES!!! 

You are going to complain about boundaries? This is the old Bethesda freak argument about all the "walls" around levels in Bioware games. You have never been able to go everywhere. You were able to explore what? A fragment of Dantooine in KOTOR with a low wall of rocks. In BG2 outside Athkala you went to a single estate and not an inch outside it. In DAO you can't go to cities you know exist in the nytholigy of the realm - Highever-0 and there's no good reason why not other than those places aren't part of the story you are a part of. That's not about a shooter my dear boys, that's about the reality of level design and it has been that way for a long, long time with Bioware.

[MarloMarlo]

Hizoka003 wrote...
it seems people no longer know what an RPG is because they don't seem to make good ones anymore

Says the guy that said "RPGs are about evolving your charater, making your charater your own" right before listing FF7 and Chrono Trigger, two (good) games that don't involve any role playing, let alone any "making your character your own," as "the best examples of RPGs ever done."

All after you criticized ME2 because "its completely on rails."

Modifié par MarloMarlo, 07 février 2010 - 10:30 .

[Draconis6666]

Then you didnt play ME 1 half the planets you couldnt even access untill you did a plot world because the cluster was locked, nor could you ever revisit eden prime or peak 15 or the thorian chambers



The citadel is actualy only barely smaller than it was before only the presidium made the old citadel larger and it was actualy a tiny area with tons of wasted space and only seemed large because the environment was so open. Area wise Illium is larger than the old citadel and the new citadel is 2/3rds the size of the old one.



DA:O denies entry to all of the beginning of the game you cant even go back into the swamp cus there might be darkspawn but you were free to wander around and go to flemmeth's hut when the darkspawn were halfway to Denerim

[Sidney]

Khavos wrote...
You got the thrill of discovery in ME2's model?  Really?

"SWEET!  +10% DAMAGE!"

"OH MAN, +20% DAMAGE!  WHERE COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE GOING?"  

Loot's fun and people like it.  You may not, but there're at least 11 million people out there who'd agree with me. 

As opposed to "sweet" a Darksapwn Sword, Grey Iron! Woot! Rough Leather Boots, wowie. Holy crap a ring of +10% frost damage, stop the presses.

Loot isn't fun but people have been so brainwashed by a decade of the dead hand of Dungeons and Dragons' baleful influence on CRPG's that they have forgotten that AD&D doesn't define the limits and potentials of the entire genre.

[Draconis6666]

Khavos wrote...

Sidney wrote...

No, because as I level up I need money and better weapons and that means I have to dribble around through the inventory. Inventory system aren't optional in any RPG if they exist.

Why do you find them fun? Really, I'm dying to have anyone explain the fun and joy of sifting items, looting corpses and selling to merchants.

You still get the thrill of discovery in ME2's model (scanning new weapons and upgrades) it is just that you don't get the thrill of finding  the equivilent of  8 sets of Rough Leather Boots, 2 small shields, 12 potions and so on and so on.

You got the thrill of discovery in ME2's model?  Really?

"SWEET!  +10% DAMAGE!"

"OH MAN, +20% DAMAGE!  WHERE COULD THIS POSSIBLY BE GOING?"  

Loot's fun and people like it.  You may not, but there're at least 11 million people out there who'd agree with me. 

Thats irrelevant to the point of the game being an RPG. Loot being fun does not make it part of what makes a game an RPG or not,

And bioware did not say you dont control the narrative they said you dont have TOTAL control of the narrative which is true its a 3rd person Rpg not a 1st person rpg where the character is totaly defined by you.  You still have infinatly more control over the narrative than a game like FF7 where the character is 100% defined by the game and doesnt matter what you do.

Modifié par Draconis6666, 07 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Ryzaki]

Khavos wrote...

reepneep wrote...

It IS an RPG.  It apparently just doesn't meet your lootgrinding and spreadsheet quota.  A game is an RPG because it gives the player control over the narrative, not because it forces them to spend hours playing lootris.

You think you have control over the narrative?  Bioware's specifically said that you don't. 

Pretty much this.

[pedal2metal]

Hizoka003 wrote...

RPGs are about evolving your charater, making your charater your own... ME2 does not do that.. by the end of the game every player has the same everything, you just swap out a handful of skills....


An RPG is more about being in the world of the game then just fighting from point a to point B... if you really want to experiance what an RPG is go play FF7 or Chrono Trigger, yes they are very old games now but they are the best examples of RPGs ever done... even KOTOR if you need something mor recent


the biggest thing ME2 lacks is emersion  you do not feel like you are in the ME universe like you did in the first... you want Halo made by BioWare not the next great RPG, you are happy with the same shooter thats been done since Doom Heritec and Quake

I agree w/this.  RPG is about making a personal character & there has to be enough "character flexibility" in order to allow this to occur.  A choice of 5 or 6 skills isn't going to do that as effectively as 10-12 skills.  KOTOR was an excellent game & to this day is still one of Bioware's greatest games IMO.  I also agree with OP that armor/weapon customization-wise, ME2 is actually probably better over ME1 as ME1 it boiled down to Colossus/Spectre X gear.  That being said, the journey to that saturation point was pretty fun in ME1.

ME1 I felt was a nicely streamlined RPG w/combat that still retained that "RPG" flavor.  The immersion I felt in the ME1 in terms being in a different world was greater than ME2.  ME2 has more intense combat but it has lost some of the immersion factor with the modular mission design & more disjointed approach.  It's still a fun game & I'm glad I got it but I still love ME1 for it's RPG-flavor as well.

I'm not saying ME2 should have been done differently (I personally think Bioware uses the fan reactions to try & help determine what to do next & with no change, no new information so change is necessary) but I do hope they will mix it up a bit more between RPG & shooter in ME3 with my hope that some of the RPG "feel" makes it back in while retaining the intense combat of ME2.  Seems completely doable.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[Hizoka003]

BLY78NOR wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Khavos wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Their games are targeted at a competely different audience

Who're they targeting?

Who's Bioware targeting?

Seeing as how Blizzard only make PC games it's pretty clear who their target audience is while ME was a 360 game ported to PCs later

Where do you think the majority of Biowars profits from these 2 games come from?

lets look at your ignorance a moment... first they were both made concurrently second DAO was made for PC then adapted to XBox and third SW:TOR will be PC only

RPGs are best suited for PCs now... hell PS3 and XBox lose footing every day in the console market to the Wii... it will not be long before games start going back to PC.. hell PC is where it is at now because consoles are out dated and limiting game makers...

Actually ME was made as a 360 game and released 6 months before the PC version it made a lot more money

What does DA:O and SW: TOR have to do with anything when we're talking about ME?

ME is not DA:O or SW: TOR it's ME, so why do you insist that it should be more like them when it was never meant to be? Bioware is throwing 2 games your way within a year and you're ****ing about them not catering to your minorty tastes in a 3rd one? lol

How many times has consoles been outdated in the past only for new once to come out? are you really this dense, PC has been an option every time and console gen is nearing it's end yet more and more people still chose consoles, why would this time be any different...? here you are calling me ignorant 

average life span of a console was 3 years... yet the current gen of consoles has already been out double that and there are no new ones insight...

[TJSolo]

Sidney wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Inventory management is a choice. You could pick one armor and simple mods and never touch your inventory again while others have the choice to sort through the inventory as they please.

Obliterating said choice no matter how illusionary;is the problem.

No, because as I level up I need money and better weapons and that means I have to dribble around through the inventory. Inventory system aren't optional in any RPG if they exist.

Why do you find them fun? Really, I'm dying to have anyone explain the fun and joy of sifting items, looting corpses and selling to merchants.

You still get the thrill of discovery in ME2's model (scanning new weapons and upgrades) it is just that you don't get the thrill of finding  the equivilent of  8 sets of Rough Leather Boots, 2 small shields, 12 potions and so on and so on.

Your level of interaction within an inventory if fully up to the you.
You wouldn't need to muddle around or get frustrated with trying to sort through the inventory. You could just sell it all if you want creds.

Answering a why question is typically too subjective. If you don't like something I could explain why I like it but you wouldn't agree. Also there are already posts giving reason why some people enjoy sort, shifting, and managing inventory.

Finding garbage items is fodder just to sell and save money for future purchases.

Again this is mostly about choice; Some people are bothered by the lack of choices in ME2.

[reepneep]

Khavos wrote...

reepneep wrote...

It IS an RPG.  It apparently just doesn't meet your lootgrinding and spreadsheet quota.  A game is an RPG because it gives the player control over the narrative, not because it forces them to spend hours playing lootris.

You think you have control over the narrative?  Bioware's specifically said that you don't. 

[Citation Needed]

There are degrees of this, after all.  Favorite RPG of all time, Fallout (RIP), gave the character quite a bit of control over the way the story went.  Mass Effect was always RPG-Lite.  The fact that they took out lootris and the combat isn't clunky and awkward anymore doesn't change the fact that It's still an RPG.

[GUNSTAR H3R0]

fight for lost abilities? Learn how to use your whole team. You play as a whole not strictly limited to shepards abilities. Honestly first game i played i didn't pay attention to the other guys abilities. Me2 i feel like i play a unit instead of just shepard. It's awesome. Also me1 inventory setup was garbage and point distribution was wayyy too damn busy. Me2 is soo much better, you only get things that are useable and the way to point up your characters are cleaner. I don't like when people say me1 was more of an rpg. It was waaay too messy to be considered that although still an amazing game. Me2 is just perfection. I hope they keep it the same system for me3 and not revert to anything similiar to me1.

Oh yeah and all the upgrades are there too, they're just presented differently. You can still power up your weapons through upgrades from the ships interfaces. I also like the new ammo abilities. I hated having to feel like i had to pick a different ammo every couple mins for a certain enemy. god that was annoying.

AND one more thing. To the people who want an inventory for all the upgrades, why? the ships interface system does it beautifully, not as clearcut but at least i can do the upgrade and get on with the game instead of having to open up my menu 24 7 to change it.  Everything is there in me2, there is customization people just fail to see it because it's been cleaned up so well. 

ME2 > ME1  by a huge margin in every possible way.

Modifié par GUNSTAR H3R0, 07 février 2010 - 10:46 .

[lukandroll]

MarloMarlo wrote...

lukandroll wrote...
Dude you are in a topic that CLEARLY expecifies "RPG" in its title, and you keep coming to the shooter elements, STOP

Because he's clearly complaining about the shooter elements -- both the guy I'm replying to specifically and the OP. Or are they actually extolling the virtues of ME2s shooter mechanics in "a topic that CLEARLY expecifies 'RPG' in its title?" And I'm arguing that differences in combat have nothing to do with if the game is a better or worse RPG, and how their arguments about the shooter mechanics are irrelevant. Because, you know, the title of this thread "CLEARLY expecifies RPG in its title." START paying attention.

I sugest you to read the OP again, this discussion is about what RPG elements were stripped down from from ME, and what RPG elements ME3 could have

[GUNSTAR H3R0]

btw It's an ACTION rpg. It isn't a pure rpg. This is what sets mass effect apart from rpgs and shooters. It has elements of both and defines an alternative genre.

[Hizoka003]

funny how people say the most profitable game in history is an example of a bad RPG...

[Khavos]

reepneep wrote...
[Citation Needed]

There are degrees of this, after all.  Favorite RPG of all time, Fallout (RIP), gave the character quite a bit of control over the way the story went.  Mass Effect was always RPG-Lite.  The fact that they took out lootris and the combat isn't clunky and awkward anymore doesn't change the fact that It's still an RPG.

I've never said it isn't an RPG.  I've said it's an extremely limited one. 

[lukandroll]

BLY78NOR wrote...

lukandroll wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

BLY78NOR wrote...

DKnightPortela wrote...

Hizoka003 wrote...

Draconis6666 wrote...

no you fall into the category of small minded peopel who refuse to believe that a game can actualy be both and that its impossible to ROLE PLAY (which is the defining term of an RPG) without tons of pointless options and 300 different skills that arent needed. What defines an RPG is the ability to role play a character not if you have to drink water 3 times a day to stay alive or if you can spend 80 hours tryign to drive up a hill in your rover to get to a deposit of some random x mineral. Those things are simply periphial improvements to an RPG they are not what makes a game an RPG or not.

You cling to the idea that ME 1 was such a superior RPG when it has very little that ME 2 does not the "exploration" is meaniningless as you are exploring the same thing over and over and over and you find the same thing over and over and over, theres like 6-7 actualy unique things to be found in the entire universe across all the planets that are not related to a quest.

You speficialy state that ME 2 has no large cities when it clearly has both illium AND the citadel both of which are larger or of the same size than the ONLY large city in ME 1 which is the citadel. As for the flotilla perhaps you should take some time to actualy explore the lore surounding the quarians to answer your own question on why you only go there once.

there is a big differance in an RPG and a Shooter with dialog choices... i agree we do not need eleventy billion item drops... but at the same time you can get every armor peice in game before you do anything else... RPGs are about evolving your charater, making your charater your own... ME2 does not do that.. by the end of the game every player has the same everything, you just swap out a handful of skills....

Agree 100%. Thats why i will never buy more products from Bioware before time and even ever if they dont get their heads straight and stop making "fashion" games and go back to the inovative and epic world making they started with.

God forbid games actually evolve right? just keep making the same game over and over to keep a handful of loot and grind purists happy

thats just it the game did not evolve... it devolved into a mindless shooter

That's purely subjective and largely depneds on what YOU want out of the game, it's amazing to me that people can't just enjoy something for what it is rather then **** and moan endlessly about what it's not.

What i got was an RPG with Gears of war quality combat, i'd call that evolution from the days where combat was an after thought
Your actual skill isn't definded by numbers anymore, but you can still train and evolve powers that make your life a lot easier. ME2 hits that sweet spot where nothing really feels like comprimise anymore like combat did in the first game

If I want to play a shooter, I'd play some EPIC or ID game, Crysis, or any other action packed game...
If i want to play a BioWare game labeled as "RPG" I DO want to play a BioWare RPG, not some shooter

i must have missed the unwritten law that every game Bioware makes needs to follow a strick code of gameplay.

It doesn't, but when you release a game like ME1, the least you can do is to have a little consistency in how you present you game, ME1 recieved mixed feelings right across the board, so what did bioware do?? they scraped half of the game and went completely over the edge, they succefully found a way to change completely the indentity of their own game...

Modifié par lukandroll, 07 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[DKnightPortela]

Sidney wrote...

DKnightPortela wrote...
I dont remember being denied entry in any planet that i already didnt went to in ME1, KOTOR or village in DA:O that werent in the script denied for a REALISTIC reason like the forge planet (endgame so no need to go back) or Illos (endgame also) or that village which i forget that name for a reason that would constitute spoiler so i wont tell it here... Oh wait ME2 has that we´re denied entry in levels that we did before!!! What a revelation!!! And the Citadel also just shrunk to a american lifesize shopping mall amazing!!!... Yes definitly evolved LOADS of roleplay where im denied entry very similar to, wait, SHOOTER GAMES!!! 

You are going to complain about boundaries? This is the old Bethesda freak argument about all the "walls" around levels in Bioware games. You have never been able to go everywhere. You were able to explore what? A fragment of Dantooine in KOTOR with a low wall of rocks. In BG2 outside Athkala you went to a single estate and not an inch outside it. In DAO you can't go to cities you know exist in the nytholigy of the realm - Highever-0 and there's no good reason why not other than those places aren't part of the story you are a part of. That's not about a shooter my dear boys, that's about the reality of level design and it has been that way for a long, long time with Bioware.

Did you even bother to read my post? I'm not talking about boundaries so stop changing my words if you dont compreend them, i was speaking of gettting acess to all the sites you have gone before and be able to again go back if you wish to do so, its called PLAYER CHOICE (i read somewhere that it was part of the roleplay definition but what do i know) and by compartimentalizing parts of a scenery just to take out the elevators took out complety the immersion of being in a huge place like the Citadel or Omega, i personally didnt have any problems with the elevators i did have a problem with the shooter mechanics which they resolved but then took out the parts that were working... Smart...