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Insanity balance of biotics: Shockwave, Throw, Slam


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#1
konfeta

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DISCLAIMER: Not a thread about biotics sucking on Insanity, take that somewhere else.

Has anyone one found real utility for these three abilities that would warrant leveling them over other stuff?

Here is my problem with Throw - it is a generalist move. It's a little bit of disable, a little bit of damage. But that just means it sucks, because when you max out Warp and Pull, there is literally no point to casting Throw ever again. Warp significantly out damages it. Pull is a significantlly superior disable. Warp combos with Pull far, far better than with Throw  (main target basically dies anyway, Warp has the advantage of a big kablooey that knocks down even armored enemies). Oh, and Throw chucks enemies far away, making it more difficult to hit them.

Has anyone come up with a practical scenario where it is warranted to use Throw over other biotics for either killing or disabling?


Next, Shockwave. Shockwave's selling point is it's large area of impact and ability to pierce any amount of cover. However, on Insanity, this move is very hard to justify using except for the lulz of bouncing enemies. Defense stripping abilities have a fairly limited AoE, which negates one advantage of Shockwave - Widened Singularity or Area Pull or Area Reave are just better ideas to cast on those 2-3 enemies that just lost their defense. They will die far faster.

Shockwave is just hurt by the fact that it's a disruption tool rather than a disable tool; and it's long cast time. A target that is hit by shockwave is more compromised when hit by any other biotic power. Shockwave's AoE is wasted because no defense stripping ability has a similar AoE. The one use I found for it, hitting targets hidden behind a mountain of cover, is very limited and is generally outclassed by a well placed Singularity.

So, is there a reason to cast this over other Biotics in any situation? The only use I can think of is Widened Shockwave to hit enemies hiding behind cover so you can close in or switch cover yourself, but when you are proficient with Singularity, Shockwave is just obselete.

Last, Slam. Alright, this is basically a better version of Throw. Which isn't saying much. Why cast Slam when Pull is more efficient where it counts, the disable? All points that apply to Throw apply to this, except with less harshness.


Every other Biotic has a well defined purpose.

Pull is quick, cheap, and dirty all-purpose disable that guarantees the death of a target stripped of defenses. It's primary advantage that makes it worth using over Singularity is longer duration, and half the cooldown. An excellent move to cast on strong targets when you strip their defenses - basically halves the combat time of targets like Geth Infiltrators and Krogans. Excellent way to set up a Warp detonation due to the cooldown.

Singularity is the ultimate CC of this game. Disables targets even when their defense bar is up, can catch targets that come in after the fact of the cast, keeps targets close to each other which is great for further AoE abilities and gives this its own form of utility for Warp detonation over pull (more targets hit as opposed to speed of the combo).

Warp, well, is Warp. Great damage, combos for powerful explosions that knock around shielded enmies silly willy.

Reave is just ****ing sexy for Collector based missions, the only ability to instantly take off Barriers of multiple targets. The heal and functionality as a poor man's singularity is just a bonus. It's one of the few generalist abilities that actually is useful, combining two unique benefit with decent CC and damage.


What purpose do Shockwave, Throw, and Slam serve that is not done better, faster, or more efficiently by the rest of Biotics? If they just suck, what should be done to give them a unique, defined purpose?

Personally, I would suggest the following:

1. Shockwave - give it a "destabilizing" effect that allows biotics to affect targeted that have 1 defense bar (so bosses are still safe) enemies with Biotics. Gives it a very defined purpose of AoE debuffing and comboing with other abilites (or even itself). It's progression would have to be rebalanced, though, to make sure its not a 1 point wonder, that it has some use at low point investment, and that leveling it would still have distinct benefits,

2. Throw - make it pierce defense when the enemy is close to you. This solution is perfect, IMO, as Biotics lack an "oh ****" button when an enemy with defense comes close to them. Doing this gives Adepts a very useful defense tool, an excuse to get closer to enemies when the occasion permits, and gives Throw a nish that is not shared by any other Biotic power.

3. Slam - can't think of many ways to fix it, it just suffers from other Biotic powers already filling any important niche. The most interesting thing I can come up with is that Slam should turn the target into a projectile - once you lift the enemy, instead of coming crashing down, it comes crashing into the closest target and knocks it down regardless of shields. It's a fun, unique way to differentiate it from other Biotic powers, but I am not sure how viable it would be to make this.

Thoughts?

Modifié par konfeta, 08 février 2010 - 06:02 .


#2
stillnotking

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Shockwave is crazy OP on Veteran and lower difficulties where targets like Husks and Varren don't have armor. I agree something needs to be done to make it better on Hardcore/Insanity. I'd suggest lengthening the duration of the stun vs. hardened targets -- it's a long cooldown and should make enemies do more than just stumble.

Throw is only good for Pull + Throw combos. Situationally useful but there are easier ways to kill things. Making it pierce defense would be cool but it would probably need to be a longer CD.

Slam is just bad and I can't figure out why people like it.

Modifié par stillnotking, 07 février 2010 - 03:01 .


#3
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Singularity is the ultimate CC of this game. Disables targets even when their defense bar is up, can catch targets that come in after the fact of the cast, keeps targets close to each other which is great for further AoE abilities and gives this its own form of utility for Warp detonation over pull (more targets hit as opposed to speed of the combo).


Please show me a video of singularity actually holding something with defences on insanity. Thanks.

Singularity is the class skill of the adept but it pretty much is useless unless the enemy is defenseless and then they are as good as dead anyways.

I look forward to your video showing singularity holding creatures with defences in place on insanity. By "holds in place" I hope you don't mean the brief pause because that doesn't count. Maybe my insanity adept was just bugged. I guess I'll know for sure if you produce said video. Thanks.

Warp is about the only biotic ability the adept has that can consistantly be used in a meaningful way in a battle on insanity in my experience.

There is already a thread about rebalancing biotics here: (although it specifies the adept.)

http://social.biowar...8/index/1004785

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 07 février 2010 - 03:20 .


#4
Hiero Glyph

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Warp + Throw works very well on Husks. When doing my Insanity playthrough using a Sentinel I also had Miranda and Thane both with Heavy Warp. Thane also had Throw and it was a prereq. for my Sentinel's Warp. Anyway, once the Husk's armor is gone using Throw will instantly kill them. I was never able to evolve Throw into an area ability but I don't see a reason why you couldn't Warp two different enemies and Throw Field to kill both targets at once.

Again, I only used Throw as a prereq. for Warp but it was useful to knock down YMIR, Krogans and one-shot Husks among other things. Given the very short recharge it would even allow you to setup enemies for throwing them off of ledges. Keep in mind that you need to take down the armor/shield/barrier of the enemy before Throw will be effective but for a Sentinel this was never a problem.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 07 février 2010 - 03:46 .


#5
stillnotking

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Hiero Glyph wrote...

Warp + Throw works very well on Husks. When doing my Insanity playthrough using a Sentinel I also had Miranda and Thane both with Heavy Warp. Thane also had Throw and it was a prereq. for my Sentinel's Warp. Anyway, once the Husk's armor is gone using Throw will instantly kill them. I was never able to evolve Throw into an area ability but I don't see a reason why you couldn't Warp two different enemies and Throw Field to kill both targets at once.

Again, I only used Throw as a prereq. for Warp but it was useful to knock down YMIR, Krogans and one-shot Husks among other things. Given the very short recharge it would even allow you to setup enemies for throwing them off of ledges. Keep in mind that you need to take down the armor/shield/barrier of the enemy before Throw will be effective but for a Sentinel this was never a problem.


Pull also one-shots (unarmored) Husks.  Anything with a knockdown will one-shot them -- Concussive Shot, krogan charge, multiple biotic abilities...

#6
konfeta

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@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.

@Glyph

Problem is, it doesn't actually kill them for me. Just throws them back and deals a little damage. Instead, I could have cast Pull Field or Singularity and sent them into for significantly longer time, allowing my team mates to focus on them while I get ready for the next target.

Is there some trick to making Throw do more damage? I don't mean lifting them first, because lifted targets suffer far more damage from Warp detonation.

Modifié par konfeta, 07 février 2010 - 04:43 .


#7
WillieStyle

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Does Reave also strip shields or only barriers?

#8
GCreature

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"Slam should turn the target into a projectile - once you lift the enemy, instead of coming crashing down, it comes crashing into the closest target and knocks it down regardless of shields. It's a fun, unique way to differentiate it from other Biotic powers, but I am not sure how viable it would be to make this."



I love this idea. Biotics didn't really make me feel powerful in this game, but picking a guy up and slamming him into one of buddies is pure baddassery.

#9
konfeta

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Reave damages shields, but not very well. A lot worse than Warp, at least.

#10
Grumpy Old Wizard

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konfeta wrote...

@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.
.


I don't doubt it has a momentary pause like I said. Fire one singularity and see how long it takes him to act.

Oh, like I said, I finished my playthrough yesterday so I have no saves to reload. Unless I start an insanity+ game.

#11
WillieStyle

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

konfeta wrote...

@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.
.


I don't doubt it has a momentary pause like I said. Fire one singularity and see how long it takes him to act.

Oh, like I said, I finished my playthrough yesterday so I have no saves to reload. Unless I start an insanity+ game.


Um, from the video he posted, the duration of the hold was longer than the cooldown of Singularity.  What more do you want?

#12
themaxzero

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WillieStyle wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

konfeta wrote...

@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.
.


I don't doubt it has a momentary pause like I said. Fire one singularity and see how long it takes him to act.

Oh, like I said, I finished my playthrough yesterday so I have no saves to reload. Unless I start an insanity+ game.


Um, from the video he posted, the duration of the hold was longer than the cooldown of Singularity.  What more do you want?


Give the guy a break he was just completely owned and is now backpedalling.

Apparently if it isn't ultra long one shot death CC like Bastion Stasis from ME 1 its not 'real' CC.

Modifié par themaxzero, 07 février 2010 - 07:33 .


#13
GGForce

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konfeta wrote...

@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.

@Glyph

Problem is, it doesn't actually kill them for me. Just throws them back and deals a little damage. Instead, I could have cast Pull Field or Singularity and sent them into for significantly longer time, allowing my team mates to focus on them while I get ready for the next target.

Is there some trick to making Throw do more damage? I don't mean lifting them first, because lifted targets suffer far more damage from Warp detonation.


That's crazy! I never deployed Singularity against enemies with shields/barrier because I thought it wouldn' do anything at all. Is it possible that when there's an enemy caught in it that it's less effective/ineffective against those with defenses? Have you tried that scenario?

#14
Grumpy Old Wizard

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themaxzero wrote...


Give the guy a break he was just completely owned and is now backpedalling.

Apparently if it isn't ultra long one shot death CC like Bastion Stasis from ME 1 its not 'real' CC.


Actually, to be called a crowd control skill it has to hold more than one creature at a time.

And holding a creature for 2 seconds or less doesn't count as crowd control. There is a reason he fired off 3 singularities in a row as fast as he could I suspect.

I'll do some testing of my own tomorrow becasue I certainly have not observed creatrues with shileds/defense being held for any length of time.

#15
WillieStyle

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, to be called a crowd control skill it has to hold more than one creature at a time.


Now you're just being silly.

#16
The_mango55

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, to be called a crowd control skill it has to hold more than one creature at a time.


So pull isn't crowd control unless it's area pull?

#17
themaxzero

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GGForce wrote...

konfeta wrote...

@GrumpyOldLazyDude
www.youtube.com/watch

Forgive the quality, but, quite frankly, if you were too lazy of loading a save and spending the 3 minutes it takes to test this, you don't need more. I stood right in front of him, fired off 3 singularities, and he didn't fire or cast anything back. He looped in recoiling animation the whole time.

@Glyph

Problem is, it doesn't actually kill them for me. Just throws them back and deals a little damage. Instead, I could have cast Pull Field or Singularity and sent them into for significantly longer time, allowing my team mates to focus on them while I get ready for the next target.

Is there some trick to making Throw do more damage? I don't mean lifting them first, because lifted targets suffer far more damage from Warp detonation.


That's crazy! I never deployed Singularity against enemies with shields/barrier because I thought it wouldn' do anything at all. Is it possible that when there's an enemy caught in it that it's less effective/ineffective against those with defenses? Have you tried that scenario?


Singularity has a reduced effect on protected enemies which is to be expected since its pretty much death for anyone who is unprotected.

The main thing to keep in mind with Singularity is the target size is more important then protections. Wether they have armour or not Singularity is super effect against Husks, Collectors, Mercs, LOKI Bots, etc. It has reduced effectiveness against Krogan, Geth Destroyers and Scions (still works well against Scions due to their slow attack speed) and has very little effect against Geth Primes, YRMI bots, and the big floating collector bosses.

#18
entekk

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If there are many opponents at once like in the Zaeed loyalty mission, I pick up the heavy guys and bombard them with warp/bullets and when they are defenseless I throw them to death while shooting & warping the other enemies.

#19
Hiero Glyph

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konfeta wrote...

@Glyph

Problem is, it doesn't actually kill them for me. Just throws them back and deals a little damage. Instead, I could have cast Pull Field or Singularity and sent them into for significantly longer time, allowing my team mates to focus on them while I get ready for the next target.

Is there some trick to making Throw do more damage? I don't mean lifting them first, because lifted targets suffer far more damage from Warp detonation.


I had my Throw at level 2 and was using Power Armor (+15% damage), Raider (+15% damage), two pieces of armor to boost damage (+8% total) along with the research upgrades (up to +50% damage).  I am not sure if I had all of these things active at once until very late in the game but even when on Horizon, if Warp was able to strip away all of the armor, Throw would one-shot them.

Also, does Pull Field do anything when they have their armor?  I would be curious to see what each biotic does under the following conditions: health only, armor, shield, and barrier.

The_mango55 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, to be called a crowd control skill it has to hold more than one creature at a time.


So pull isn't crowd control unless it's area pull?


By the very definition of the word 'crowd' the answer would be yes.

#20
The_mango55

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Hiero Glyph wrote...

The_mango55 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, to be called a crowd control skill it has to hold more than one creature at a time.


So pull isn't crowd control unless it's area pull?


By the very definition of the word 'crowd' the answer would be yes.


Anytime you take one or more enemies out of a fight with multipe enimies it's considered crowd control. Stasis was crowd control and it was 1 enemy max.

#21
DesolCobra

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Throw's low cooldown is basically what I think the designers had in mind as having an advantage over pull. The reaper IFF mission I just did area throw the entire mission (except for scions). With throw, it doesn't even matter what dmg it causes to husks since I'm throwing them off the walkways by aiming in a curve towards the ledge. It was fun and allowed me to go through the mission without a single husk getting close me. I don't think it'll work as well in hardcore or insanity level through (I was playing veteran) due to armor.

#22
konfeta

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I don't doubt it has a momentary pause like I said. Fire one singularity and see how long it takes him to act.


It lasts as long as the singularity does or until he inches his way out of it (so placement of the Singularity matters).

Against multiple targets, it doesn't last as long (i.e. after it runs it's full hold duration, the singularity vaporizes). Test it on Hulk masses, like the IFF mission. I used Singularity to great effect on that mission at the end sequence of destroying the Reaper core: my team mates died very fast, and I used multiple singularities to keep armored husk groups at bay while I ran around.

Dude, it works. And not for just a tiny stagger. Maybe you didn't test Widened singularity? Because the Heavy Singularity version has a small AoE, and it's very easy to miss it (i.e. they inch out before its duration is over).

I had my Throw at level 2 and was using Power Armor (+15% damage), Raider (+15% damage), two pieces of armor to boost damage (+8% total) along with the research upgrades (up to +50% damage). I am not sure if I had all of these things active at once until very late in the game but even when on Horizon, if Warp was able to strip away all of the armor, Throw would one-shot them.


I don't know then. I had Heavy Throw, +45% damage, and it barely took off half hit points of LOKI mechs on the mission I extensively tested throw on.

*I just tested it with max Heavy Throw, full +% biotic power boosts, etc. It takes like 6 Throws to kill a single collector. The only way I could get it to one **** things is if they were floating first... and Warp does that better.

Have you tried that scenario?


Unfortunaetly it does not. Although if you are feeling fancy, you can just chain Singularity until their armor runs out.

Throw's low cooldown is basically what I think the designers had in mind as having an advantage over pull.


Pull's cooldown is identical to Throw. I have no doubt that Throw is great for killing things on lower difficulties, but it's the Insanity usage I am iffy about.


*Edit:

Wait, what? The word   s h o t    is censored?

Modifié par konfeta, 08 février 2010 - 06:37 .


#23
DesolCobra

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I'm pretty sure Throw's cooldown is 1/2 of Pull~

However, I do agree that throw is probably not a skill I would want to max out for insanity level (outright abandon it except as pre-req for warp).

#24
Hiero Glyph

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konfeta wrote...




I had my Throw at level 2 and was using Power Armor (+15% damage), Raider (+15% damage), two pieces of armor to boost damage (+8% total) along with the research upgrades (up to +50% damage). I am not sure if I had all of these things active at once until very late in the game but even when on Horizon, if Warp was able to strip away all of the armor, Throw would one-shot them.


I don't know then. I had Heavy Throw, +45% damage, and it barely took off half hit points of LOKI mechs on the mission I extensively tested throw on.

*I just tested it with max Heavy Throw, full +% biotic power boosts, etc. It takes like 6 Throws to kill a single collector. The only way I could get it to one **** things is if they were floating first... and Warp does that better


Ah, here is the issue as I was talking about Husks being one-shotted and you were not.  Throw will keep LOKI, YMIR, Krogans, etc. on their backside though but will not kill them in a single hit unless you toss them off of a ledge.

Modifié par Hiero Glyph, 08 février 2010 - 08:00 .


#25
konfeta

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I'm pretty sure Throw's cooldown is 1/2 of Pull~




They are both 3 seconds. You were probably thinking of Singularity or Shockwave or Warp; which have 6 second cooldowns.



As for Husks, well, I accept no substitute to Singularity to them; so I never tried out Throw on them.