46 réponses à ce sujet

[JonnyHavoc]

I was thinking of going Warrior, Bersker and reaver or temp classes but I really want to duel wield. Does anyone have any advice. Is it the case choosing any other weapon than shield/swd combo is a waste of time. I know I could go rogue but I like being at the fore front of battles but can't help but love Duel Wielding.

I do not want to gimp my party later on with some half pretending tank trying to be dps when I should leave that to another character?

Cheers

[Tilron]

I played a Bersker-Reaver duel wield warrior that played the main tank and beat the game on the PC in 42 hours on normal while doing 53% of total party damage.



That was my first play though.

[deathwing200]

My berserker is also pretty good in duels.

[Sloth Of Doom]

DW tank works fine.

[Titanmike357]

Tank can be many things, avoidance tank, Hp tank, gear tank.

Mage tank, and so on.

[Hathur]

Dual wield works surprisingly well as a tank due to his 2 point-blank area effect attacks .. this lets him hit a large group of clustered enemies and get their attention focused on him... combined with taunt, a DW warrior can aggro easier than a sword n shield tank... survivability wise they seem alright too, especially if you have a healer in the group.

[Yevgenii]

DW tank is a complete destroyer. much better than DW rogues IMO. the reason why is because they generally wear medium armor (which is good enough to tank) and have a higher damage output when using the berserker tree. DW warrior IMO, is the best combination of damage and survivability, and they work great as a tank because of the AOE abilities.



Mine is using a good sword/dagger and dragon scale armor and he absolutely obliterates everything. i have 2 other DPS toons in my group and he puts out almost 50% of the damage. He also tanked all the dragons that ive faced so far, all you need to do is use a fire resist pot and use the resistance buff in the healing tree, added to the fire res on my dragonscale he barely needs healing.



DW tank is IMO the best DPS char, next to a mage. however, he is more useful since he can tank or offtank.

[T0rin3]

DW warrior is not going to do better damage than a rogue, and can only tank better in the respect that they have aggro drawing abilities, Taunt and Threaten. Aside from the aggro drawing, Rogues take damage better (Evasion, higher Dex) and deal more damage because of superior talents.

[kchow84]

Hmm, my DW warrior is doing more damage than Leliana specced DW (lethality + cunning--mainly for lockpick and stealing) AND she can tank Revenants no problem...I would say no, a DW tank is not pointless. Having high dex and being able to wear heavier armor makes them very survivable--only knockdowns will give you problems.

[kchow84]

sorry double posted

Modifié par kchow84, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[Yevgenii]

T0rin3 wrote...

DW warrior is not going to do better damage than a rogue, and can only tank better in the respect that they have aggro drawing abilities, Taunt and Threaten. Aside from the aggro drawing, Rogues take damage better (Evasion, higher Dex) and deal more damage because of superior talents.

than you have a crappy DW warrior. the only thing a DW rogue has over a warrior is combat stealth, which is a nice trick, but over the long rung DW warriors still do more damage and take damage better. lets see your dw rogue main tank the high dragon.

oh and picking locks. but most of the stuff in locked chests is useless anyway.

[Lorcaine]

Obliterates stuff while being survivable is a good description of a DW warrior. Add in Berserker specialization and watch the carnage ensue...while being able to stand in the thick of things. My dw warrior also accounts for about half of my group's damage output, with a crazy number of kills, relative to the rest of the group.

I prefer to use him as an off tank and heavy armor dps, but he tanks well enough with some healing support and potions. I also have a similar level weapon and shield tank, and I actually feel like I'm having less of an impact during fights with him, than my dw warrior. Plus, the first time you see your dw warrior leap onto an ogre, climb up with his swords for the coup de grace, and then drop back down to kill the rest of the trash mobs without much of a scratch, you will see the light.

Some weaknesses to offer a balanced opinion:
Because he has no flanking protection, like a weapon and shield tank, he can get spiked down quickly when swarmed.

Knockdowns. Weapon and Shield and 2 handed warriors can become immune to knockdowns, DW warriors can't. That can be frustrating, and is one of the reasons I like to be in the off tank, heavy dps role.

Mobs of archers focus firing on a dw warrior can be ugly, if you don't use some crowd control to buy him the time to get to them.

That's it! Not a lot of weaknesses, but enough to mention. The good is great though. I like to use my dw warrior like a homing missile of death, sending him in to obliterate mages, or to destroy enemy support, while Shale or Allistar do the main tanking. With that said, I find myself tanking said packs of mobs a lot, without much problem.

Modifié par Lorcaine, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:37 .

[Raisthlin Arckon]

JonnyHavoc wrote...

I was thinking of going Warrior, Bersker and reaver or temp classes but I really want to duel wield. Does anyone have any advice. Is it the case choosing any other weapon than shield/swd combo is a waste of time. I know I could go rogue but I like being at the fore front of battles but can't help but love Duel Wielding.

I do not want to gimp my party later on with some half pretending tank trying to be dps when I should leave that to another character?

Cheers

if you want to tank with a dual wielder make sure to get high dex for better defense.

[T0rin3]

Yevgenii wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

DW warrior is not going to do better damage than a rogue, and can only tank better in the respect that they have aggro drawing abilities, Taunt and Threaten. Aside from the aggro drawing, Rogues take damage better (Evasion, higher Dex) and deal more damage because of superior talents.

than you have a crappy DW warrior. the only thing a DW rogue has over a warrior is combat stealth, which is a nice trick, but over the long rung DW warriors still do more damage and take damage better.

On the topic of survivability, Rogue has Evasion. Warrior has Bravery? Yeah, no competition There.

On the topic of damage, rogue has and needs only 1 thing: backstab. With someone else tanking, a rogue can backstab pretty much 100% of the time, warriors have no function to allow them to critical attack every single attack. When tanking, a rogue still has the ability to backstabbed stunned/frozen/paralyzed targets. A rogue has pinpoint strikes via Duelist, which allows a large chunk of criticals when tanking.

So, to summarize, the only difference in survivability between Rogue and Warrior is Evasion vs Bravery. Hmmm, 20% chance to outright miss, or a slight boost to physical resistance. Yes, Rogue wins there. Rogue wears the same armor, has the same weapon talents. Nothing about the warrior class offers superior defense. The difference between Rogue and Warrior is essentially backstab vs Berserker/Reaver/Champion damage buffs, to which there is still no comparison. Damage buffs from warrior specializations do not equate to the same increase in damage (100%) that backstab offers.

There really is no comparison between the two, the only reason to play DW Warrior instead of DW Rogue is for Threaten and Taunt, and that is of course if you plan to allow your DW PC to main tank.

lets see your dw rogue main tank the high dragon.

Do you want a video or will the screenshot of my rogue on the dragon's neck finishing him off be enough? (on Nightmare)

Modifié par T0rin3, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:22 .

[Jians]

^

It's misinforming if you put it that way where you make it sound like rogue can tank and dps well at the same time.

If you want to tank as a rogue, Evasion requires 35 Dex while heavy armor has a 30+ Str requirement on top of fatigue penalties. That alone lowers the maximum Cun count you can gain from levels to about 50 at level 25, plus you don't get to put points into Con.

Whereby as a DW Warrior ... for DPS, you'd only need a Dex count of 36 for Dual Weapon Mastery, and can easily reach 50 Str with 20 points to spare for +6 to Cun for level 4 Coercion and +14 into Con for more health should you need it.

Summary:
You'll be diluting your attributes too much as a Rogue if you want to accomplish multiple things but a Warrior has more naturally focused stats for multitasking.

Modifié par Jians, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Sevitan7]

He isn't misinforming, Rouges can simply go str instead of cunning, wear the same armor, do pretty much the same damage in face to face combat but also double their damage output through criticals and backstabs. And since you get +5 cunning in the fade, it only takes 2 points to reach 22 for master stealth/lockpicking in order to maintain utility.



There is no comparison, Rogues make better dual wielding "warriors" than warriors by far. All warriors have going for them is taunt, which is nice for making sure the rouges can do their insane damage non stop rather than just damage comparable to warriors.

[WillieStyle]

Sevitan7 wrote...

He isn't misinforming, Rouges can simply go str instead of cunning, wear the same armor, do pretty much the same damage in face to face combat but also double their damage output through criticals and backstabs.

This is somewhat misleading.  A rogue doesn't do twice the dps while backstabbing of a non-backstabbing rogue or warrior for a couple reason:
1) Rune/Poison/Enchant damage isn't affected by the backstab multiplier.
2) Dual-striking is a significant dps boost.

Furthermore, warrior-specific talents are a better dps boost than rogue-specific talents (other than song-of-courage) when not backstabbing.  So in actual fact, the backstabbing rogue does a bit more, but not much more dps than the dual-wielding warrior assuming the warrior has a bard in her party.

Also, keep in mind that while tanking, you cannot benefit from the +20 attack bonus from flanking.  At that point, the higher innate attack bonus of a warrior factors in somewhat.   Finally, a warrior will have less fatigue while tanking.  While this isn't super critical, with dual-striking, momentum, and other sustained abilities activated, being able to use Dual-weapon sweep, and whirlwind on cooldown becomes more of a challenge for the rogue.  

Also, imo champion provides much better tank utility than any rogue specialization.  War Cry is a very large range medium cooldown CC that's great to use as a tank.

Finally, the warrior will of course have more hitpoints than the rogue which factors into tanking.  Remember, your defence drops to zero when knocked-down or stunned.

P.S.
Anyone know if you need a 2 Handed weapon equiped to activate indomitable.  If not, that's a pretty big advantage warriors have over rogues as tanks.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:17 .

[Jians]

The point about the misinforming bit is that a Rogue can't do BOTH tank and dps at the same time. If you tank as a Rogue, your DPS goes down by a huge margin due to lack of backstabs (factoring out Pinpoint Strikes of course). Also, tanking isn't really that viable on Rogues due to lack of Taunt/Threaten/ AoE and low health pool in comparison to Warriors which will be massive when fighting multiple mobs.

So, to answer the question of the thread topic, no DW Tanks aren't pointless because you output higher amounts of DPS than the other Tanks and still do your job as a Tank very well, but if you're looking for pure DPS, then a DW Rogue is more up your alley.

WillieStyle wrote...
P.S.
Anyone know if you need a 2
Handed weapon equiped to activate indomitable.  If not, that's a pretty
big advantage warriors have over rogues as tanks.

You do, unfortunately. Many have been saying it's the only reason why 2H Tanks aren't completely worthless

Modifié par Jians, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[Love-Buzz]

With party buffs, my DW champion/templar had roughly 30% crit, 20 armor pen, 47 dmg each hand and 350+ HP on top of 35+ armor and nice resists. DW doesn't tank archers as well as sword and shield, but with whirlwind + dual weapon swipe (or w/e its called), you have a fair bit of AoE damage, and you hit single targets pretty hard too. All in all, a fun and useful class. Between a healer and potions, you should be fine with it as your main tank.

[Sevitan7]

1) I'm not taking runes or poison into account at all. The backstab multiplier is 1.5, and it can easily go to 2.0 with the right equipment. Further more, because backstabing is done with main hand only, rouge can use dagger in their offhand to increase speed. The end result isn't exactly twice the damage, but it's close too, and it is significantly higher.

2) From what I can tell, dual striking is bugged and makes you whiff all the time. I'm not sure what's up with that talent but it does not seem to provide much of an increase in dps at all. If it worked as advertised it would be easily the best talent in the game though.



When not backstabbing, the only thing that warriors have over rouges is the +8 from berserker, but it's more or less offset by the fact that rouges only need 24 dex for momentum and don't need to dual wield 2 medium weapons, so they end up having a higher based damage anyway and end up doing almost the same damage when not backstabbing. And they can also use pinpoint strike for 15 seconds of criticals anyway.



Fatigue is irrelevant since the only thing worthwhile using is dual weapon sweep and you'll have plenty to use it.



As far as tanking is concerned, I agree warriors are way better at it. But that has more to do with taunt being able to pull aggro, I find little use in sword+board compared to dual wielding even for warriors.

[JamesX]

My Dalish Elf Warrior is DW and he tanks fine. The only thing I miss about not using 2-H or Shield/Sword is the knock down immunity.

[Ninjaphrog]

Yevgenii wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

DW warrior is not going to do better damage than a rogue, and can only tank better in the respect that they have aggro drawing abilities, Taunt and Threaten. Aside from the aggro drawing, Rogues take damage better (Evasion, higher Dex) and deal more damage because of superior talents.

than you have a crappy DW warrior. the only thing a DW rogue has over a warrior is combat stealth, which is a nice trick, but over the long rung DW warriors still do more damage and take damage better. lets see your dw rogue main tank the high dragon.

oh and picking locks. but most of the stuff in locked chests is useless anyway.

Then your rogues suck...my backstab rogue with momentum could put 4 60 dmg hits in in the time it takes your DW warrior to take 2 swings where 1 misses.

DW warriors suck in my opinion...stop being wannabe rogues omg! 

EDIT: I'm just failing to see how a warrior who relies on strength could possibly be better at duel wielding then a dexterity rogue....in the end...a rogue Duel wield will always kick the living crap out of a DW warrior cause of the following reasons:

Armor penetration
Backstabs, even while paralyzed
Paralyzes, stuns
Being sexy

Modifié par Ninjaphrog, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:35 .

[Sevitan7]

Jians wrote...

The point about the misinforming bit is that a Rogue can't do BOTH tank and dps at the same time. If you tank as a Rogue, your DPS goes down by a huge margin due to lack of backstabs (factoring out Pinpoint Strikes of course). Also, tanking isn't really that viable on Rogues due to lack of Taunt/Threaten/ AoE and low health pool in comparison to Warriors which will be massive when fighting multiple mobs.

So, to answer the question of the thread topic, no DW Tanks aren't pointless because you output higher amounts of DPS than the other Tanks and still do your job as a Tank very well, but if you're looking for pure DPS, then a DW Rogue is more up your alley.

Oh yea,  I agree with that completely. And yes, DW Warriors are the best in my opinion because they hold aggro well and still do great damage, inclduing aoe. It's sad how much weaker 2h and S+B are in my opinion.

Modifié par Sevitan7, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[JamesX]

Ninjaphrog wrote...

Then your rogues suck...my backstab rogue with momentum could put 4 60 dmg hits in in the time it takes your DW warrior to take 2 swings where 1 misses.

DW warriors suck in my opinion...stop being wannabe rogues omg! 

You do realize that warriors get Momentums too right?
What Cunning does is it switches strength modifier to cunning modifier.  Which a warrior don't need anyways.
As for backstabbing >.> everyone gets that.  Though coup de grace is rogue only.