[quote]Jians wrote...
It's misinforming if you put it that way where you make it sound like rogue can tank and dps well at the same time.[/quote]They can. Your illusion that DW Warrior is the only character who can tank and DPS at the same time is both misinformed and unqualified. You simply show that you don't know how to build a rogue or what their capabilities are through your posts. I'll explain...
[quote]If you want to tank as a rogue, Evasion requires 35 Dex while heavy armor has a 30+ Str requirement on top of fatigue penalties. That alone lowers the maximum Cun count you can gain from levels to about 50 at level 25, plus you don't get to put points into Con.[/quote]You simply do not focus on Cun as a Str rogue. You assume every rogue has to, which is not true. DPS wise, there is no practical DPS difference between a Cun rogue and a Str rogue. Obviously, the Str rogue is much more apt to tank, given his higher physical resistance from Strength and his ability to equip Massive armor. The 35 Dex needed (if you account for the 4-5 you get from the Fade) does not require a significant investment beyond what you already make for DW skills, not to mention that the added Dex is a boon when tanking as it boosts your defense rating. This 50 cun you expect to use is instead redirected into Str, as you only need something like 16 natural Cun to get all the Rogue talents you need. And you don't need points in Con when you have 50 armor, 90+ defense, 30% chance to dodge, high Physical Resistance, etc. etc.
[quote]Whereby as a DW Warrior ... for DPS, you'd only need a Dex count of 36 for Dual Weapon Mastery, and can easily reach 50 Str with 20 points to spare for +6 to Cun for level 4 Coercion and +14 into Con for more health should you need it.[/quote]My Rogue right now has something like 80 strength, so I'm not sure why you think Rogues are particularly lacking in that area compared to warriors. Again, Con is completely unecessary, I've tanked Gaxkang and the High Dragon with my rogue and have not put a _single point_ into Con. The Orzimmar ring is quite enough.
[quote]Summary:You'll be diluting your attributes too much as a Rogue if you want to accomplish multiple things but a Warrior has more naturally focused stats for multitasking.[/quote]Hopefully I've proven why Str DW rogue and DW warrior are not different in there stat distribution.
[quote]WillieStyle wrote...
[quote]Sevitan7 wrote...
He isn't misinforming, Rouges can simply go str instead of cunning, wear the same armor, do pretty much the same damage in face to face combat but also double their damage output through criticals and backstabs. [/quote]
This is somewhat misleading. A rogue doesn't do twice the dps while backstabbing of a non-backstabbing rogue or warrior for a couple reason:1) Rune/Poison/Enchant damage isn't affected by the backstab multiplier.2) Dual-striking is a significant dps boost.[/quote]You're technically correct, it is not twice as much damage, more like 87% more damage because of your reason #1. Your reason #2 could not be more misplaced, Dual-Striking is actually a very poor DPS boost compared to backstabbing or critting via Pinpoint Strikes.
[quote]Furthermore, warrior-specific talents are a better dps boost than rogue-specific talents (other than song-of-courage) when not backstabbing. So in actual fact, the backstabbing rogue does a bit more, but not much more dps than the dual-wielding warrior assuming the warrior has a bard in her party.[/quote]So, you're telling me that your berserker/reaver or berserker/champion buffs boost your DPS by 90%? Yeah, ok. And throwing in "assuming the warrior has a bard in her party" distracts the topic, as my rogue is not a Bard either, but I can just as easily have Song of Courage as you can.
[quote]Also, keep in mind that while tanking, you cannot benefit from the +20 attack bonus from flanking. At that point, the higher innate attack bonus of a warrior factors in somewhat. Finally, a warrior will have less fatigue while tanking. While this isn't super critical, with dual-striking, momentum, and other sustained abilities activated, being able to use Dual-weapon sweep, and whirlwind on cooldown becomes more of a challenge for the rogue.[/quote]If you didn't notice, Duelist gives a constant +20 attack bonus, and with 80+ strength, I don't really need any attack bonus against 99% of enemies. Everyone seems to assume that rogues just have low attack rating and high cunning, but that simply isn't true. The only rogue I advocate to do this job better than a DW warrior is a Strength focused Rogue, who has just as much potential for strength as a Warrior does. On the topic of fatigue, being as we have the same strength, we have the same fatigue from the same armor. Your point is moot because any "challenge" that would face the rogue, would face the warrior equally. There is one talent for Warrior that reduces Fatigue, but not by a noticable amount that would fundamentally change the ability to use stamina for skills. Unlike Warrior, my Rogue does not need to waste Stamina on Dual-Striking in order to maximize DPS, which would give the Rogue more total stamina for skills than the Warrior.
[quote]Also, imo champion provides much better tank utility than any rogue specialization. War Cry is a very large range medium cooldown CC that's great to use as a tank.[/quote]Nobody ever said that the DW warrior did not have more utility, in fact I've given warriors credit where credit is due, mentioning Taunt and Threaten as important tanking utility. War Cry is nice, but is not a necessary function of tanking and DPSing.
[quote]Finally, the warrior will of course have more hitpoints than the rogue which factors into tanking. Remember, your defence drops to zero when knocked-down or stunned.[/quote]You have the exact same potential for stat distribution that I do, so claiming that you will have more hitpoints than me is just inane. Your defense drops to zero when knocked-down or stunned just the same, but I have one big advantage: Evasion. Evasion can avoid knock-down and non-magical stun attempts, whereas warriors have no such ability.
[quote]P.S.Anyone know if you need a 2 Handed weapon equiped to activate indomitable. If not, that's a pretty big advantage warriors have over rogues as tanks.[/quote]Yes, you do. I tried doing it on my 1h/shield warrior to use as a replacement for the talent point investment in Shield Wall and Shield Mastery, but it requires a 2h weapon to activate.
[quote]Jians wrote...
The point about the misinforming bit is that a Rogue can't do BOTH tank and dps at the same time. If you tank as a Rogue, your DPS goes down by a huge margin due to lack of backstabs (factoring out Pinpoint Strikes of course). Also, tanking isn't really that viable on Rogues due to lack of Taunt/Threaten/ AoE and low health pool in comparison to Warriors which will be massive when fighting multiple mobs.
So, to answer the question of the thread topic, no DW Tanks aren't pointless because you output higher amounts of DPS than the other Tanks and still do your job as a Tank very well, but if you're looking for pure DPS, then a DW Rogue is more up your alley.[/quote]Yes, a rogue can most assuredly BOTH tank and dps at the same time, arguably better than a warrior in every respect EXCEPT aggro generation. And how can you factor out pinpoint strikes? You'd have to factor out Coup De Grace as well, as it also contributes to tanking backstabs/criticals. Between the two, you can spend a very significant amount of time both tanking and critting/backstabbing.
And as I've mentioned for the 4th time now, yes, Taunt/Threaten is the one major bonus to doing this as a warrior. Whether it compares to what you get instead as a Rogue is more of a personal playstyle decision.
Why do I keep hearing "low hp pool compared to warriors"? Do you seriously think a rogue has stats spread so thin that we don't have the same ability to boost con that you do? Seriously?
Modifié par T0rin3, 19 novembre 2009 - 03:46 .
Retour en haut
