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[ApolloCloud]

"I hated Xenosaga. The first two hours of the game is an endless, mind-numbingly dull cutscene that manages to simultaneously put the reader to sleep and preach to them the entire time. The gameplay isn't much better, even by JRPG standards. Learning one freaking ability should not require three different pools of points."



The subject matter might not be to everyones' tastes but to those that have played the game there's no denying that it's an extremely advanced piece of storytelling, that by all objective measures absolutely crushes something as simplistic as Mass Effect.

[casedawgz]

Being convoluted to the point of incoherence doesn't mean you've created an advanced piece of storytelling, though if you make it convoluted enough you're sure to fool some people.

[ApolloCloud]

I see that term being thrown around a lot with regards to the likes of the Metal Gear Solid and Xenosaga series and I can only come to the conclusion that there are a lot of people out there with little appreciation for deep, complex storytelling, because where some might refer to it as "convoluted" I see an unprecedented number of themes and detail with which the themes are being explored spread over dozens of hours of storytelling to prevent it from having a negative effect on the pacing of the storyline, and I see those themes rather than simply being explored within the story, being intrinsically tied to the overarching direction that the story takes, and where some might refer to it as "incoherent" I see confusing subject matter being explored under a confusing narrative with an abundance of mystery and ambiguity and plot twists that make you look back and question everything you believed you knew about the story up until that very twist, only to now make more sense in light of recent revelations (read: all of the makings of complex storytelling).

Modifié par ApolloCloud, 11 avril 2010 - 08:07 .

[casedawgz]

I stopped reading when you implied that Metal Gear Solid was good literature.

[ApolloCloud]

What's wrong with Metal Gear Solid?

[BlackyBlack]

Xenosaga sux

[casedawgz]

ApolloCloud wrote...

What's wrong with Metal Gear Solid?

They're fantastic games, and they're usually well acted, but plot elements like Johnny Akiba always throw me for a loop.

[FutureBoy81]

you cant really compare the two, yes there both RPG's but different type's of RPG's, i prefered XenoGears to Xenosaga, but Mass effect is one of my all time video game favourite's so i would be baised toward's it, no other game has ever allowed me to create my own character and transport that character to the sequal of the game to continue my story, ME for all it's flaw's is pretty innovating in that respect ..

[Gravbh]

Xenogears was great, saga no so much imo. I'll vote ME because it actually makes sense. Just because you can have a convoluted story doesn't mean you should, which is something you see all too often in japanese rpgs.

[Astranagant]

Mass Effect, obviously.



Xenosaga was a steaming pile that didn't deserve to be the prequel to Xenogears.

[ApolloCloud]

What makes Xenosaga "convoluted" but not Xenogears? If you think of all three Xenosaga Episodes as one grand story, then Xenogears explored just as many themes and concepts, if not more, in far less an amount of time.

[ApolloCloud]

And even if we were to say that Xenosaga didn't deserve to be the prequel to Xenogears (which it wasn't, incidentally) than Mass Effect doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Xenogears.



That being said, I'm quite surprised that so many people here have even played Xenogears and Xenosaga. The games (as in Xenosaga and Xenogears next to Bioware games) appeal to radically different tastes.

[ApolloCloud]

bump

[cold52]

xenogears yes...xenosaga...not so much
xenogears was a classic that sadly had its second disk rushed due to budget (even so it still was a great game)
xenosaga being the spiritual successor to it ( because xenogears wasnt owned by its original creators anymore)
was made later...but it just wasnt all that great...dunno just didnt like it to much is all

but this isnt about them its about xenosaga and mass effect

which id choose mass effect because of how well made it is and how much fun ive had playing it
( however if it were xenogears id probably choose it due to how everything unfolded and how it kept me wanting more and a very nice combat system for its time...plus im a sucker for mechs)

Modifié par cold52, 12 avril 2010 - 12:30 .

[ApolloCloud]

I'm still not seeing how Xenosaga is somehow so radically different from Xenogears. Everything people complain about Xenosaga applies just as much to Xenogears, if not moreso. And yet people seem to love Xenogears for it, and hate Xenosaga for it.

[A Killing Sound]

Perhaps I can shed some light on the differences between Xenogears and Xenosaga, being I have the two.



Xenogears actually had an original combat system, exploration and a world map. As mentioned there was talking and cutscenes, but they weren't unbearably long. Plus it had more likeable characters and well designed locales.

Xenosaga is a movie. 2 hour cutscenes, followed by a dungeon, followed by more talk. The characters are rather dull to be honest, and many look childish. The combat system isn't as polished or fast paced. The story in Xenosaga just wasn't worth sitting through three games to hear. Why make 3 games when you don't have enough good material to fill one?



Disagree if you want, but I'm sure a lot of people agree with me.

[ApolloCloud]

Xenogears and the Xenosaga series deliver some of the finest stories you can find, anywhere. That is their selling point. That Xenosaga added a greater emphasis on their main, and really, defining attribute than Xenogears did would be a reason to prefer Xenosaga, not Xenogears. The games were made to tell a story, not to deliver a gameplay experience, so why people view the extreme emphasis on story as something that's bad is absurd.

[A Killing Sound]

You make some good points Apollo, but it's supposed to be a video game, not video movie. Xenosaga could have benefitted from better pacing in storytelling. When you put in a PS2 game, you expect the controller not to grow cold in your hands. Fortunately, lots of PS2 games had this problem. Sons of Liberty had the same problem. Lack of pacing. However, Metal Gear Solid 3 fixed that problem, Xenosaga didn't.

[Lake88]

ApolloCloud wrote...
The games were made to tell a story, not to deliver a gameplay experience, so why people view the extreme emphasis on story as something that's bad is absurd.

^^That's the problem there. The gameplay experience is important for (most?) gamers. While the plot is important, the medium is, too.

I'll be honest and tell you that i stopped playing xenogears shortly after starting Disc 2. I was sure it was going to have an epic story, but i still can't bear to sit through the massive removal of gameplay elements. It wasn't the medium I was seeking anymore.

Xenosaga just came at a bad time. 3D CGI was still deep in the uncanny zone. ZeroPunc joked about how you can figure out ME's script from the cinematics(Say this->Say that->Scratch neck->Look Left) but in Xenosaga(and JRPGs that time) it was way too obvious. There were many awkward pauses in the cutscenes. Long Loading times do not help.  Also, someone decided that it was hip and cool to produce JRPGs over several 'episodes', instead of making giving them self-contained plots that could stand on their own.

[marshalleck]

Lake88 wrote...

ApolloCloud wrote...
The games were made to tell a story, not to deliver a gameplay experience, so why people view the extreme emphasis on story as something that's bad is absurd.

^^That's the problem there. The gameplay experience is important for (most?) gamers. While the plot is important, the medium is, too.

I'll be honest and tell you that i stopped playing xenogears shortly after starting Disc 2. I was sure it was going to have an epic story, but i still can't bear to sit through the massive removal of gameplay elements. It wasn't the medium I was seeking anymore.

Xenosaga just came at a bad time. 3D CGI was still deep in the uncanny zone. ZeroPunc joked about how you can figure out ME's script from the cinematics(Say this->Say that->Scratch neck->Look Left) but in Xenosaga(and JRPGs that time) it was way too obvious. There were many awkward pauses in the cutscenes. Long Loading times do not help.  Also, someone decided that it was hip and cool to produce JRPGs over several 'episodes', instead of making giving them self-contained plots that could stand on their own.

So you don't like that type of game. That's fine. It doesn't make the game bad, which is what I think ApolloCloud was trying to say. People judge games by their own weird preconceptions of what they want or expect it to be instead of what the designers were trying to do and how fully-realized the finished product is.

[A Killing Sound]

To each their own is the best way to judge these games. I'm glad this series has an audience, but I prefer games where it's not so much what the story is telling, but how its' told. Lunar 1 & 2 are great examples. Simple storys told extremely effectively.

[Mister Mida]

Xenowhat?

[ApolloCloud]

Link9us wrote...

Since im a huge fan of anime and JRPGS i would say xenosaga is definitely one of the best rpg series i have played. It has a very complex and interactive story, character development is definitely huge. Yes there is a majority of cut scenes. But if you played it, why are you asking this question any way? I'm just curious.

Also this is not really the place to be asking bout JRPGS since most fans unfortunately dont play JRPGS and stick more to WRPGS.. lol i have to disagree though so before i get flamed, i will say in my experience playing games. RPGS have the much greater story telling elements then WRPGs do.

I am not that big of a WRPG fan but im very pleased with dragon age. Its in alot of ways so much better then the others like oblivion and fallout 3.

I still think to this day that the xenosaga trilogy has the best emotional charged drama type story ive ever encountered in an rpg with very complex and developed characters.

^ This

[orpheus333]

I couldn't follow xenosaga at all. I started with one of the later games ans after watching the 3 hour catchup DVD was still none the wiser so I took the game back and bought a sandwich.