357 réponses à ce sujet

[wbaron]

supakillaii wrote...

"I'm asking why they didn't just fly into the galaxy in the first place"
Because that would give the species time to unite and fight back. Coming in through the Citadel would isolate the Mass Relay Clusters and destroy the government.

Would it?  If they flew to an edge system that had a mass relay they could be instantaneously at the citadel en masse in pretty short order.   The galaxy would have a bit more time to prepare, but it wouldn't be that significant...  Certainly not enough to mount any kind of coordinated defense to a completely unknown enemy.

"I didn't ask why they want the Citadel. I asked why Sovereign would attack it on his own when he could have just waited for them to arrive by conventional means and launch a coordinated attack."
Because that would give the species time to evolve to the point that an Old Machine is a piece of fluffy Space Pie.

Also, Nazara didn't defeat the whole Citadel Fleet. If you listen what they say in ME, you'll hear pretty clearly that they've spread the troops out, with only a handful of Ships protecting the Citadel.

The old machines are MILLIONS of years old.  Don't think so.  It's also clear that the entire citadel fleet wouldn't have stood a chance against Nazara.

[wbaron]

marshalleck wrote...

Sort of.

If we assume that they are at least as far away from the Milky Way galaxy as the galaxy is wide, since the entirety of the galaxy is in view from their location, then they are 100,000 LY out. Traveling at 12 LY per day, they still wouldn't get here until Shepard is in his/her mid 50s.

Okay, so "a wizard did it" and they can get here in 2 years.

Well, if that's the case, why do they need to open the Citadel relay? It unhinges the plot of the first game by relegating the Citadel to merely a high value tactical target rather than being central to the logistics of a full-scale galactic invasion.

I see that and have totally agreed since page 1.  I am simply wondering why they are having such a difficult time getting back.  Either they drove there, which make hibernation a **** and can only be as far as their FTL drives will take them in 50,000 years (not 100,000) or "a wizard did it"  but "cannot undo it".  Either way it's somewhat unsatisfying and a bit silly.

[sbear3737]

Keep in mind we still don't know why the Reapers are doing any of this anyway, their goals, their purpose and motivations. What is to be gained? Are they procreating through organics? The human-reaper seems to suggest so but then why do all other reapers look the same? What do they gain from wiping out advanced civilizations every 'x' years... just seems all really vague right now...

[Sharn01]

Abrazxas wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

Ah but FTL is faster than light, and without someone from the B ioware team quantifiying that, it's no telling how quickly a ship moves while using FTL.

It is true that Bioware has not given a specific on how far beyond the speed of light they can travel. 
But, the Galaxy is roughly 100,000 light years in diameter, and space is not 2 dimentional even though gravity tends to keep the galaxy its self in relatively flat.

So, if they can move at speeds that allow them to close the distance they are shown from the galaxy at the end of ME 2 with in a 2 year time frame, it makes the first mass effect pointless.  Travelling at that type of speed they could simply move over the galaxy until they are roughly above the citidel are of space, and then close the last 20,000 light years so quickly that they would be at the citidel before any one had any idea of their presence let alone their intent, effectively accomplishing the same thing as using the Mass Relay for the element of surprise.

[Einz360]

marshalleck wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

Again very simple it allot easier to wipe out a whole race when you have access to all there data as well as kill the head of government also the Citadel is the tool used to deactivate the other mass relays. It was more then just a fing back door.

I didn't ask why they want the Citadel. I asked why Sovereign would attack it on his own when he could have just waited for them to arrive by conventional means and launch a coordinated attack.

I understand very well the response "a wizard did it." That solves a tech problem, but creates a logical problem. Why didn't they just do this in the first place?

because Sovereign was a cocky bastard and thought that he could gain control with Saren and the Geth... he almost succeeded in re-programming the Keepers, weren't it for Commander Shepard.

[wbaron]

Sharn01 wrote...

Abrazxas wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

Ah but FTL is faster than light, and without someone from the B ioware team quantifiying that, it's no telling how quickly a ship moves while using FTL.

It is true that Bioware has not given a specific on how far beyond the speed of light they can travel. 
But, the Galaxy is roughly 100,000 light years in diameter, and space is not 2 dimentional even though gravity tends to keep the galaxy its self in relatively flat.

So, if they can move at speeds that allow them to close the distance they are shown from the galaxy at the end of ME 2 with in a 2 year time frame, it makes the first mass effect pointless.  Travelling at that type of speed they could simply move over the galaxy until they are roughly above the citidel are of space, and then close the last 20,000 light years so quickly that they would be at the citidel before any one had any idea of their presence let alone their intent, effectively accomplishing the same thing as using the Mass Relay for the element of surprise.

Let's just get this cleared up once and for all.  The magic number for FTL is 12 LY/day

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL

[sbear3737]

Sharn01 wrote...

Abrazxas wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

Ah but FTL is faster than light, and without someone from the B ioware team quantifiying that, it's no telling how quickly a ship moves while using FTL.

It is true that Bioware has not given a specific on how far beyond the speed of light they can travel. 
But, the Galaxy is roughly 100,000 light years in diameter, and space is not 2 dimentional even though gravity tends to keep the galaxy its self in relatively flat.

So, if they can move at speeds that allow them to close the distance they are shown from the galaxy at the end of ME 2 with in a 2 year time frame, it makes the first mass effect pointless.  Travelling at that type of speed they could simply move over the galaxy until they are roughly above the citidel are of space, and then close the last 20,000 light years so quickly that they would be at the citidel before any one had any idea of their presence let alone their intent, effectively accomplishing the same thing as using the Mass Relay for the element of surprise.

For clarity, it's not gravity that made the galaxy into a flat disk shape, it's angular momentum. In any case, I think we've pretty much concluded that ship driven FTL is lame-sauce and can't help the Reapers, they need some kind of mass relay and they have almost run out of options.

[Sharn01]

wbaron wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sort of.

If we assume that they are at least as far away from the Milky Way galaxy as the galaxy is wide, since the entirety of the galaxy is in view from their location, then they are 100,000 LY out. Traveling at 12 LY per day, they still wouldn't get here until Shepard is in his/her mid 50s.

Okay, so "a wizard did it" and they can get here in 2 years.

Well, if that's the case, why do they need to open the Citadel relay? It unhinges the plot of the first game by relegating the Citadel to merely a high value tactical target rather than being central to the logistics of a full-scale galactic invasion.

I see that and have totally agreed since page 1.  I am simply wondering why they are having such a difficult time getting back.  Either they drove there, which make hibernation a **** and can only be as far as their FTL drives will take them in 50,000 years (not 100,000) or "a wizard did it"  but "cannot undo it".  Either way it's somewhat unsatisfying and a bit silly.

It was explained that they normally never fly out there, at some point in history they flew out there one time, made a mass relay that connected with the citidel, and used that relay to go back and forth from those location's instantaniously.

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

I see that and have totally agreed since
page 1.  I am simply wondering why they are having such a difficult time
getting back.  Either they drove there, which make hibernation a ****
and can only be as far as their FTL drives will take them in 50,000
years (not 100,000) or "a wizard did it"  but "cannot undo it".  Either
way it's somewhat unsatisfying and a bit silly.

Oh I know you've been able to see the plot hole. I was just clarifying my position for the sake of others who are still quoting my post from the first page.

The problem comes with them having to get here in Shepard's lifetime. It's a bit of a metagame argument, but really, that's essentially what it's reduced to. They have to get here in time for Shepard to not be a crotchety old senior in retirement, which in turn creates big problems regarding the Citadel.

Either they need it and are trapped, or they don't need in which case why did ME1 even happen in the first place. Which only leaves this: they must be hatching another plan to somehow relay back into the galaxy.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[wbaron]

sbear3737 wrote...

Keep in mind we still don't know why the Reapers are doing any of this anyway, their goals, their purpose and motivations. What is to be gained? Are they procreating through organics? The human-reaper seems to suggest so but then why do all other reapers look the same? What do they gain from wiping out advanced civilizations every 'x' years... just seems all really vague right now...

The why is interesting, but I'm not sure it really matters.  The cycle is pretty clear as are the results of that cycle.  It might be that they relay on organics for tech advancements or that they need them to breed.  Either way the same plot holes exist in the current problems with carrying out this cycle.

[Lord_Metal666]

sbear3737 wrote...

Keep in mind we still don't know why the Reapers are doing any of this anyway, their goals, their purpose and motivations. What is to be gained? Are they procreating through organics? The human-reaper seems to suggest so but then why do all other reapers look the same? What do they gain from wiping out advanced civilizations every 'x' years... just seems all really vague right now...

Just to clarify for the 1000th time, the reapers do not all look the same.

[Mudzr]

My guess is that in ME2 they were trying to capture shepard so he could take over the citadel.

But they must have a back door or something, and by ME3 someone will be able to call them back.

I just saw the end of ME2 as if they were waking up, getting ready to be called.



ME2 would have been so much more awesome if someone managed to call them back.

[MasonK]

marshalleck wrote...
Oh I know you've been able to see the plot hole. I was just clarifying my position for the sake of others who are still quoting my post from the first page.

The problem comes with them having to get here in Shepard's lifetime. It's a bit of a metagame argument, but really, that's essentially what it's reduced to. They have to get here in time for Shepard to not be a crotchety old senior in retirement, which in turn creates big problems regarding the Citadel.

Either they need it and are trapped, or they don't need in which case why did ME1 even happen in the first place. Which only leaves this: they must be hatching another plan to somehow relay back into the galaxy.

Which begs the question: What were the collectors doing that made their return possible?  The Reaper controlling the collector general at the end says, "We will find another way."  Building a 1/8 size humanoid Reaper brings them in from Dark Space how?

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[sbear3737]

So... how are they different? All in-game shots suggested to me that they look pretty darn similar.

[ryder500]

The Reapers offer "the end of everything", the ultimate level of existence. They have no need for organics, each of them have no need for anything other than what they have, they just appear, create Reapers from the existing races genetic material/memory and wipe out the rest. They see it as perfection through destruction, eternal preservation of a species minds and knowledge, ascension in their mind.



They don't see organic life as strong. They see it as flawed, a mutation, a defect. What Reapers do is force upon their victims a way to transcend it. In me1 when you have a conversation with sovereign, I can't remember exactly how it puts it but it was along the lines of "organic life was a mistake". It then goes on about "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." Which links with what Legion says about the Reapers, that they are "one ship, one will, many minds".



To counter the inherent flaw of organic life, they wipe the species out when they are deemed "worthy", (This is perhaps why the Protheans were changed into the Collectors as the Collectors went from gathering many samples from each alien race and then they discarded collecting from other races and began focusing directly on humanity. This may mean that the Reapers only found the human race to be worthy of their goals, hence the "human reaper". This raises questions such as; where the protheans changed into collectors to help the Reapers decide which race is worthy at the pinnacle of each cycle? and are the Keepers just another race that the Reapers have enslaved to fulfill a particular goal for the Reapers? [the citadel signal]) processing the remainder into construction of new Reapers. And thus gives those races immortality, eternal preservation. The minds of the sacrificed goes on living.



As Legion put it, a Reaper is basically one ship, one will, many minds. The minds are the memory of the races processed during a Reapers creation. Sovereign's real name; Nazara, are likely also to be the name of the race of which was harvested in it's creation. So the Human-Reaper in me2 would be likely be called "Human" in that context upon it's "birth". So in a way, the Reapers could be described as monuments of long dead species.

[Einz360]

if they can have real time control of someone while being far away then there must be a way for them to get there pretty fast... remember... information sis still transmitted through mass effect relays... so there must be something going on. Maybe Harbringer is hiding in the Milky Way (and doesn't wanna try what Sovereign did) and the other reapers are just on their way.

[wbaron]

sbear3737 wrote...

So... how are they different? All in-game shots suggested to me that they look pretty darn similar.

Seconded.  Other than the baby human terminator thing at the end, I haven't seen a single Reaper anywhere that didn't have that cuttlefish look.

[Sharn01]

That rotation is caused by gravity, but we really need to stop argueing its starting to look like  4 or so of us are argueing about how we agree with each other.

Modifié par Sharn01, 07 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[wbaron]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I see that and have totally agreed since
page 1.  I am simply wondering why they are having such a difficult time
getting back.  Either they drove there, which make hibernation a ****
and can only be as far as their FTL drives will take them in 50,000
years (not 100,000) or "a wizard did it"  but "cannot undo it".  Either
way it's somewhat unsatisfying and a bit silly.

Oh I know you've been able to see the plot hole. I was just clarifying my position for the sake of others who are still quoting my post from the first page.

The problem comes with them having to get here in Shepard's lifetime. It's a bit of a metagame argument, but really, that's essentially what it's reduced to. They have to get here in time for Shepard to not be a crotchety old senior in retirement, which in turn creates big problems regarding the Citadel.

Either they need it and are trapped, or they don't need in which case why did ME1 even happen in the first place. Which only leaves this: they must be hatching another plan to somehow relay back into the galaxy.

I must have missed something but can't find it.  Why must all this happen in shepherds lifetime other than it would suck for the plot?

[marshalleck]

MasonK wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Oh I know you've been able to see the plot hole. I was just clarifying my position for the sake of others who are still quoting my post from the first page.

The problem comes with them having to get here in Shepard's lifetime. It's a bit of a metagame argument, but really, that's essentially what it's reduced to. They have to get here in time for Shepard to not be a crotchety old senior in retirement, which in turn creates big problems regarding the Citadel.

Either they need it and are trapped, or they don't need in which case why did ME1 even happen in the first place. Which only leaves this: they must be hatching another plan to somehow relay back into the galaxy.

Which begs the question: What were the collectors doing that made their return possible?  The Reaper controlling the collector general at the end says, "We will find another way."  Building a 1/8 size humanoid Reaper brings them in from Dark Space how?

Maybe they caught reruns of Superman beamed out into space and got an idea.

I don't know. I guess the obvious assumption is that the Citadel is somehow keyed to Reapers, so they got started early on making a new one to make another run on it? 

Eh...it's unsatisfactory. I don't know.

[sbear3737]

ryder500 wrote...

The Reapers offer "the end of everything", the ultimate level of existence. They have no need for organics, each of them have no need for anything other than what they have, they just appear, create Reapers from the existing races genetic material/memory and wipe out the rest. They see it as perfection through destruction, eternal preservation of a species minds and knowledge, ascension in their mind.

They don't see organic life as strong. They see it as flawed, a mutation, a defect. What Reapers do is force upon their victims a way to transcend it. In me1 when you have a conversation with sovereign, I can't remember exactly how it puts it but it was along the lines of "organic life was a mistake". It then goes on about "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." Which links with what Legion says about the Reapers, that they are "one ship, one will, many minds".

To counter the inherent flaw of organic life, they wipe the species out when they are deemed "worthy", (This is perhaps why the Protheans were changed into the Collectors as the Collectors went from gathering many samples from each alien race and then they discarded collecting from other races and began focusing directly on humanity. This may mean that the Reapers only found the human race to be worthy of their goals, hence the "human reaper". This raises questions such as; where the protheans changed into collectors to help the Reapers decide which race is worthy at the pinnacle of each cycle? and are the Keepers just another race that the Reapers have enslaved to fulfill a particular goal for the Reapers? [the citadel signal]) processing the remainder into construction of new Reapers. And thus gives those races immortality, eternal preservation. The minds of the sacrificed goes on living.

As Legion put it, a Reaper is basically one ship, one will, many minds. The minds are the memory of the races processed during a Reapers creation. Sovereign's real name; Nazara, are likely also to be the name of the race of which was harvested in it's creation. So the Human-Reaper in me2 would be likely be called "Human" in that context upon it's "birth". So in a way, the Reapers could be described as monuments of long dead species.

But why do this? Why not "glass" every planet as to make organic life impossible to resume after wiping out one "generation" of galactic civilization? If they're allowing this cycle to perpetuate then they must be looking for something? Perfect organics? Are they looking for worthy.... opponents?

[sbear3737]

Sharn01 wrote...

That rotation is caused by gravity, but we really need to stop argueing its starting to look like  4 or so of us are argueing about how we agree with each other.

sure... I suppose you could put it that way lol, but you're right, there's no point in discussing that anyway.

[WoodWizzard87]

"We are you genetic destiny" stated by Harbinger. Which doesnt make sense in the long run. I guess if hes preserving the DNA of a race or species over millions of years it makes sense, But destiny would entitle mutations and changes in the genetic code, which is what totally contradicts his quotes.



Also, When the Normandy goes through the Omega-4 relay, there about a quarter of the way across the galaxy from the center, where the collector base is located. So in the cut scene, Joker jumps them 25,000 light years in a matter of 10 seconds, where he hits the relay and then has to decelerate right away.

[GnusmasTHX]

MasonK wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
No. They're tech. They're controlled in the same fashion that Saren was controlled by Sovereign, except Saren's implants are implants, and the Collector's have been modified and designed over thousands of years and a product of which is an 'organic' appearance.

Talk to the Doctor.

Saren was under indoctrination.  Yes, Saren claims in the end that Sovereign gave him implants to upgrade him AFTER you defeated him on Virmire.  Saren was being indoctrinated and used by Sovereign well before that.  Just like Matriarch Benezia was - she clearly explains it.  The implants are not how the Reaper controlled them.  The collectors are Protheans that are organic, and were - you are right - evolved by the Reapers after they destroyed them.  ME2 claims that the Collectors stayed hidden behind the Omega 4 relay and were hardly ever seen outside of it.  We never knew of the Collectors in ME1.  If they were in ME1, and could be controlled/indoctrinated by Reapers in Dark Space... what is the point of Sovereign.  What is their point period? 

I'm talking about the end, when Sovereign clearly takes over his body as he transforms and start glowing red. Similar to how Harbinger assumes control of the Collector General and Drones and they start glowing yellow.

The Protheans were turned into Collector's by replacing them with technology piece by piece. This you'd know if you spoke to Mordin.

Indoctrination is not what Sovereign did to Saren at the end of the game, because Saren was dead. Saren was revived through his implants by Sovereign, and Sovereign 'assumed control' of his corpse.

Therefore, since the Protheans/Collector's are entirely technological, albeit appearing organic, the Reapers are able to 'assume control' of them outside of indoctrination, like at the end of ME1, with Saren. You can speculate whether or not this form of 'control' is strengthened by some technology on board the Collector cruiser or base, because a hologram of Harbinger along with some serious hardware is seen talking separately from and to the Collector General right before he dies.

They can not indoctrinate people from Dark Space.

The point of Sovereign would be to open the relay. Seeing as how he's the one who sends signals to the Keepers. That didn't work due to the Prothean counterattack, so he indoctrinated Saren and deified himself among the heretic geth.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 07 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

I must have missed something but can't find it.  Why must all this happen in shepherds lifetime other than it would suck for the plot?

Well that's my point really, the writers hands are kind of forced by making this all Shepard's story. It has to take place in Shepard's lifetime because it's about Shepard. It's a tautological argument.