357 réponses à ce sujet

[Talogrungi]

wbaron wrote...

sbear3737 wrote...

So... how are they different? All in-game shots suggested to me that they look pretty darn similar.

Seconded.  Other than the baby human terminator thing at the end, I haven't seen a single Reaper anywhere that didn't have that cuttlefish look.

Baby human terminator at the end was waaaay smaller than a Reaper ship.
I'mma thinkin' that's the reaper/pilot itself, and that the squidship design is essentially a weapon/armour shell.

[sbear3737]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I must have missed something but can't find it.  Why must all this happen in shepherds lifetime other than it would suck for the plot?

Well that's my point really, the writers hands are kind of forced by making this all Shepard's story. It has to take place in Shepard's lifetime because it's about Shepard. It's a tautological argument.

way to use tautological, win

[wryan2011]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I see that and have totally agreed since
page 1.  I am simply wondering why they are having such a difficult time
getting back.  Either they drove there, which make hibernation a ****
and can only be as far as their FTL drives will take them in 50,000
years (not 100,000) or "a wizard did it"  but "cannot undo it".  Either
way it's somewhat unsatisfying and a bit silly.

Oh I know you've been able to see the plot hole. I was just clarifying my position for the sake of others who are still quoting my post from the first page.

The problem comes with them having to get here in Shepard's lifetime. It's a bit of a metagame argument, but really, that's essentially what it's reduced to. They have to get here in time for Shepard to not be a crotchety old senior in retirement, which in turn creates big problems regarding the Citadel.

Either they need it and are trapped, or they don't need in which case why did ME1 even happen in the first place. Which only leaves this: they must be hatching another plan to somehow relay back into the galaxy.

I was reading the codex the other day and it reminded me that their are many mass relays out there that haven't yet been activated for fear of where they may lead.  My best guess is The Reapers only have one relay in Dark Space that connects to the Citadel so by ME3 they need to find a way to somehow link that relay to one of those 'innactive' relays.(maybe even the omega relay itself)

It's a bit of a stretch plot wise, but this is one of the only ways I can see them doing it without completely nullifying the importance of the Citadel relay in ME1.(unless ofcourse they indoctrinate someone else to somehow open the Citadel relay in ME3)

[MasonK]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
I'm talking about the end, when Sovereign clearly takes over his body as he transforms and start glowing red. Similar to how Harbinger assumes control of the Collector General and Drones and they start glowing yellow.

The Protheans were turned into Collector's by replacing them with technology piece by piece. This you'd know if you spoke to Mordin.

Indoctrination is not what Sovereign did to Saren at the end of the game, because Saren was dead. Saren was revived through his implants by Sovereign, and Sovereign 'assumed control' of his corpse.

Therefore, since the Protheans/Collector's are entirely technological, albeit appearing organic, the Reapers are able to 'assume control' of them outside of indoctrination, like at the end of ME1, with Saren. You can speculate whether or not this form of 'control' is strengthened by some technology on board the Collector cruiser or base, because a hologram of Harbinger along with some serious hardware is seen talking separately from and to the Collector General right before he dies.

They can not indoctrinate people from Dark Space.

The point of Sovereign would be to open the relay. Seeing as how he's the one who sends signals to the Keepers. That didn't work due to the Prothean counterattack, so he indoctrinated Saren and deified himself among the heretic geth.

Since Sovereign was present when he mutated Saren, there are a lot of assumptions to be made about where the Reaper is that has possessed the collector general.  And there is no clear evidence that "Harbinger" is one of those 30 Reaper visible in Dark Space.  Yes, Shepard is looking at a picture of Harbinger in the end which must haver been downloaded by EDI from the Collector base.  You remember in ME1 where you talk to Sovereign on Virmire which is a hologram... he is also present then. 

Also, what good is that picture of Harbinger going to do Shepard if Harbinger is indeed in Dark Space?  Do they have a means of traveling to Dark Space themselves to take on all of those Reapers?

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[wbaron]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I must have missed something but can't find it.  Why must all this happen in shepherds lifetime other than it would suck for the plot?

Well that's my point really, the writers hands are kind of forced by making this all Shepard's story. It has to take place in Shepard's lifetime because it's about Shepard. It's a tautological argument.

Gotcha, I thought there was some plot device or other piece of canon that precluded any other possibility such as having ME3 star a new character (which admittedly is highly unlikely). 

Having said that, the plot does not dictate that the Reapers arrive in Shepherds lifetime, or that they arrive at all for that matter.  They simply need to be dealt with one way or the other.  But I think that's what you meant anyway

[Lord_Metal666]

sbear3737 wrote...

So... how are they different? All in-game shots suggested to me that they look pretty darn similar.

No they do not all look the same. There is one in the distance which doesn't have a tail.

There are common types however,  that means the reapers create more than one reaper per species they asymilate.

Modifié par Lord_Metal666, 07 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[GnusmasTHX]

MasonK wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
I'm talking about the end, when Sovereign clearly takes over his body as he transforms and start glowing red. Similar to how Harbinger assumes control of the Collector General and Drones and they start glowing yellow.

The Protheans were turned into Collector's by replacing them with technology piece by piece. This you'd know if you spoke to Mordin.

Indoctrination is not what Sovereign did to Saren at the end of the game, because Saren was dead. Saren was revived through his implants by Sovereign, and Sovereign 'assumed control' of his corpse.

Therefore, since the Protheans/Collector's are entirely technological, albeit appearing organic, the Reapers are able to 'assume control' of them outside of indoctrination, like at the end of ME1, with Saren. You can speculate whether or not this form of 'control' is strengthened by some technology on board the Collector cruiser or base, because a hologram of Harbinger along with some serious hardware is seen talking separately from and to the Collector General right before he dies.

They can not indoctrinate people from Dark Space.

The point of Sovereign would be to open the relay. Seeing as how he's the one who sends signals to the Keepers. That didn't work due to the Prothean counterattack, so he indoctrinated Saren and deified himself among the heretic geth.

Since Sovereign was present when he mutated Saren, there are a lot of assumptions to be made about where the Reaper is that has possessed the collector general.  And there is no clear evidence that "Harbinger" is one of those 30 Reaper visible in Dark Space.  Yes, Shepard is looking at a picture of Harbinger in the end which must haver been downloaded by EDI from the Collector base.  You remember in ME1 where you talk to Sovereign on Virmire which is a hologram... he is also present then. 

Except there's a hologram of Harbinger that looks exactly like the one in dark space. More so, the yellow glow gives it away. Also with how the dialog and cutscenes are arranged, pretty much indicate that the center Reaper in dark space is Harbinger. The only thing BioWare needs to do now is give him a giant sticker to put on his... "chest" that says, "Hello, my name is Harbinger."

Also I'm pretty sure the Joker showing the picture is the game telling you you've acquired useful data on the Reapers that will eventually come into play. 

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 07 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[wbaron]

Kind of stretch... they look the same to me... at the very least VERY similar.

[sbear3737]

Lord_Metal666 wrote...

sbear3737 wrote...

So... how are they different? All in-game shots suggested to me that they look pretty darn similar.

No they do not all look the same. There is one in the distance which doesn't have a tail.

There are common types however,  that means the reapers create more than one reaper per species they asymilate.

touche, nice screenshot. 

PS. can you imagine a human one there.. with arms and legs... it'd look really awkward. Superman in space?

Modifié par sbear3737, 07 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

Kind of stretch... they look the same to me... at the very least VERY similar.

They share a common morphology but there's a great deal of individual variation nonetheless...much like humans?

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[ryder500]

Sorry I have a capped internet at the moment and i have to answer you in this method sb3737.



"But why do this? Why not "glass" every planet as to make organic life impossible to resume after wiping out one "generation" of galactic civilization? If they're allowing this cycle to perpetuate then they must be looking for something? Perfect organics? Are they looking for worthy.... opponents?"



I will expand on this paragraph,



"As Legion put it, a Reaper is basically one ship, one will, many minds. The minds are the memory of the races processed during a Reapers creation. Sovereign's real name; Nazara, are likely also to be the name of the race of which was harvested in it's creation. So the Human-Reaper in me2 would be likely be called "Human" in that context upon it's "birth". So in a way, the Reapers could be described as monuments of long dead species."



Another thing Sovereign mentions is that Reapers have "no beginning and no end, they simply, are." They are based on their view of seeing organic life as a mistake, they are made from their necessity to remedy this "mistake", but at the same time they need organic life in the sense that it is simply why they are. The Reapers wait until a species has reached its pinnacle and then they awake from hibernation and harvest the species deemed worthy and create more Reapers based on that species likeness which contains the species memories, likeness etc. I can only speculate but perhaps this is so that the Reapers can better understand organic life and how it evolves, adapts and advances during its evolution so they can perhaps come to understand how the "mistake" of organic life came to be. This "cycle" is what they are, it is why they exist. Sovereign says that their purpose is unfathomable for organic comprehension and that organic life will never be able to understand their purpose, only that they simply "are".

[wbaron]

Ok, I'll bite. Why don't they look like protheans? Or at least multiple different morphologies?

[sbear3737]

Here's a question, here on Earth we see that procreation and reproduction operate on short life-cycles, in order to give the species a chance at survival by producing as many offspring as necessary and this is all possible within the species itself... not requiring another species to procreate. But we see that Reapers rely on other races to procreate. Is this not an inefficient method of reproduction? If they're the "genetic destiny" of humans (and presumably, all organic life, at least those worthy enough), then why would they adapt with such an inefficient, energy-consuming process to reproduce. If the Reapers say no one built them and they have no predecessor, then they must be some natural evolution, but how can this be if it seems so... unwieldy.

[MasonK]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Except there's a hologram of Harbinger that looks exactly like the one in dark space. More so, the yellow glow gives it away. Also with how the dialog and cutscenes are arranged, pretty much indicate that the center Reaper in dark space is Harbinger. The only thing BioWare needs to do now is give him a giant sticker to put on his... "chest" that says, "Hello, my name is Harbinger."

Also I'm pretty sure the Joker showing the picture is the game telling you you've acquired useful data on the Reapers that will eventually come into play. 

Yes, you are right they do look the same and it probably is Harbinger.  But my problem with that is, is that it's a terrible plot device and should be ignored in ME3.  Like I already stated, it makes Sovereign useless to ME1.  They could have used hidden, and evolved species that they control from Dark Space from day one way before the Protheans and way before ME1 and 2.  That is why you have to make assumptions now that the mention of an upgrade chip for Saren to improve him is how Sovereign took control of Saren.  Saren was under indoctrination, and if he was under the control of this "chip", you would never have forced Saren to shoot himself.

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[GnusmasTHX]

wbaron wrote...

Ok, I'll bite. Why don't they look like protheans? Or at least multiple different morphologies?

Perhaps they all conformed to this particular races shape due its advantageous form when last they had an opportunity to modify themselves? And that the Protheans shape, or the Protheans themselves did not present a viable enough race to assimilate or take the shape of.

[wbaron]

perhaps. Perhaps it means something else entirely.

[ryder500]

Harbinger says to Shepard "we are your genetic destiny". The way that I see it is that the Reapers see organic life as a flawed and weak form of life, as well as a "mistake". By saying, "we are your genetic destiny" Harbinger is saying that humanity will become one of them, hence the "human-reaper", which the Reapers believe is the pinnacle of existence and that in becoming a Reaper, perfection has been reached. Thus, "perfection through destruction". All the Reapers bear the likeness of the race that they were "brought to perfection" from and they bear the memories of the race they were "born" from. The Reapers are basically living monuments of harvested races that were brought to what the Reapers believe to be the highest form of existence, which is becoming a Reaper. The reapers exist because they simply "are" and their way to remedy the "mistake" of organic life is to bring them to the greatest from of existence which is, becoming a Reaper.



Lol at repetition.

[GnusmasTHX]

MasonK wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
Except there's a hologram of Harbinger that looks exactly like the one in dark space. More so, the yellow glow gives it away. Also with how the dialog and cutscenes are arranged, pretty much indicate that the center Reaper in dark space is Harbinger. The only thing BioWare needs to do now is give him a giant sticker to put on his... "chest" that says, "Hello, my name is Harbinger."

Also I'm pretty sure the Joker showing the picture is the game telling you you've acquired useful data on the Reapers that will eventually come into play. 

Yes, you are right they do look the same and it probably is Harbinger.  But my problem with that is, is that it's a terrible plot device and should be ignored in ME3.  Like I already stated, it makes Sovereign useless to ME1.  They could have used hidden, and evolved species that they control from Dark Space from day one way before the Protheans and way before ME1 and 2.  That is why you have to make assumptions now that the mention of an upgrade chip for Saren to improve him is how Sovereign took control of Saren.  Saren was under indoctrination, and if he was under the control of this "chip", you would never have forced Saren to shoot himself.

That's not their purpose, though.

Sovereign's purpose is to call his Reaper buddies into the galaxy using the Citadel, and that's what he tries to do. First signalling the Keepers to take control of the Citadel, which didn't work because of the Protheans, then attacking it with the geth, which didn't work because of Shepard.

It's due process that Sovereign be the one to attack the Citadel, and if he can use geth to do it, it's even better for him. Unfortunately he wasn't counting on someone like Shepard.

Then the rest of the Reapers, under Harbinger, resorted to their Plan C, the Collectors and whatever they were doing with the Human-Reaper, maybe attacking the Citadel again. Their original purpose was the study of species within the galaxy and probably sending their findings to the Reapers, not war.

As for Saren, he was indoctrinated up until the point you kill him, or he kills himself. Then Sovereign takes control of whats left of him through his new implants.

[CreepingGeth]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

wbaron wrote...

Ok, I'll bite. Why don't they look like protheans? Or at least multiple different morphologies?

Perhaps they all conformed to this particular races shape due its advantageous form when last they had an opportunity to modify themselves? And that the Protheans shape, or the Protheans themselves did not present a viable enough race to assimilate or take the shape of.

That could be it. As theorized in another thread on this board, Leviathan of Dis could certainly be the image in which the current Reapers are based.

[GnusmasTHX]

CreepingGeth wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

wbaron wrote...

Ok, I'll bite. Why don't they look like protheans? Or at least multiple different morphologies?

Perhaps they all conformed to this particular races shape due its advantageous form when last they had an opportunity to modify themselves? And that the Protheans shape, or the Protheans themselves did not present a viable enough race to assimilate or take the shape of.

That could be it. As theorized in another thread on this board, Leviathan of Dis could certainly be the image in which the current Reapers are based.

Haven't heard that one 'till now. Sounds highly plausible, though. Very cool too. I'm sure however BioWare will incorporate the Leviathan, it'll be epic.

[Fishy]

They probably have other mean to travel.Just like how they travelled into dark space and how they traveled in every corner of the milky way and put mass relay..Also just like every aliens species speak perfect english.Even new born Krogan speak english.

Thinking about it..How so on earth not everyone speak english but in the galaxy everyone does?

At least in star wars and even star Trek .. Not everyone speak english.

Modifié par Suprez30, 07 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[Sharn01]

Every one has translater's, its in the codex and brought up occasionally in the game's dialog.

[GnusmasTHX]

Suprez30 wrote...

They probably have other mean to travel.Just like how they travelled into dark space and how they traveled in every corner of the milky way and put mass relay..Also just like every aliens species speak perfect english.Even new born Krogan speak english.

Very true.

As for the English part... Everyone in ME is privy to a nifty invisible translator. Somehow it also makes it look like they're speaking english, but according to BW they're really speaking their own language and having it  translated to you in real time.

[Doug84]

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

I am not asking why the Reapers want the Citadel. I'm asking why they didn't just fly into the galaxy in the first place and avoid the whole problem of Sovereign getting blown up while trying to recapture it.

Because, the Citadel is the heart of the Citadel species governments, economics, and where a hub of military forces are based - which is the point of the Citadel trap. By attacking their, the goal is too cripple the organics before they have a chance to even realise their underattack.

[Fishy]

Sharn01 wrote...

Every one has translater's, its in the codex and brought up occasionally in the game's dialog.

Cheesy but anyway ...  I guess that easier this way.