357 réponses à ce sujet

[GnusmasTHX]

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

Amethyst Deceiver wrote...

Actually, why don't the Reapers just wait for Shepard to die of natural causes?

some people are stronger in death than in life.

we tend to call them heroes.

the post-humous impact that true heroes have on society is much more powerful that that person would have had with a gun in his/her hand while alive.


it would be in the reapers best interest to destroy the image of the hero while he/she is still alive to crush any possibility of hope in mankind.

True, but if they didn't do anything during Shepard's life then no one would believe him about the Reapers. Even if Shepard did recruit an army, they would all abandon him after they saw no Reaper activity whatsoever. Everyone would think that he really was crazy.

same could be said about Jesus. i guess the reapers might have to wait longer than 2000 years or more

I imagine they'd have to kill Shepard and convince people he was the son of God first, though.

[Aisynia]

sergio71785 wrote...

I don't think the Reapers are actually trying to reach the Galaxy without the use of a Mass Relay. I think that ending scene that showed them was more to remind the player of the threat they pose, than actually serve as a story point. Even Reapers need a source of energy, I don't think they'll have enough "fuel" to reach the Galaxy on their own. A Mass Relay is needed.

I suspect ME3 will be about Harbinger (and likely other servants of the Reapers) constructing a new huge Mass Relay capable of bringing in the rest of the Reapers, as the Citadel is out of the question for that now.

You know, I've seen that little end movie three times now, and I never got the impression they were MOVING. I felt it was just like..

"Hey look, there's hundreds of reapers out here, they are very mad at you too. It's scary."

Way I see it is.. they HAVE a relay out there, it only connects to the citadel, but they have a relay. It's reasonable to assume they have been working on contingency plans other than building a new reaper within the milky way.

[SunfighterG8]

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

You miss the whole point of the Reaper attacks.  The Reapers are farmers, not warriors.  They've perfected a strategy based on superior technology and piggybacking, and they don't show much real creativity outside of the plan.  If they come back to a militant universe on the defensive, the Reapers have a much more difficult fight that they aren't guaranteed to win.  Like any good predator, they want to win quickly and painlessly.  The Citadel plan is essential to their own survival.

If they're close enough to just fly right into the galaxy why don't they just fly to the closest in-galaxy Mass Relay and then launch a surprise assault on the citadel and take control of the network that way? No one even suspected of their existence until the whole Saren business, so if the whole lot of 'em showed up out of the blue one day it wouldn't be much of a fight for them.

Because the citadel can close up and become "nearly invunrable" i dunno how that works though to be honest....but id assume theyd try if the reapers attacked.

[The Capital Gaultier]

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

You miss the whole point of the Reaper attacks.  The Reapers are farmers, not warriors.  They've perfected a strategy based on superior technology and piggybacking, and they don't show much real creativity outside of the plan.  If they come back to a militant universe on the defensive, the Reapers have a much more difficult fight that they aren't guaranteed to win.  Like any good predator, they want to win quickly and painlessly.  The Citadel plan is essential to their own survival.

If they're close enough to just fly right into the galaxy why don't they just fly to the closest in-galaxy Mass Relay and then launch a surprise assault on the citadel and take control of the network that way? No one even suspected of their existence until the whole Saren business, so if the whole lot of 'em showed up out of the blue one day it wouldn't be much of a fight for them.

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

Remember, they've done this a lot of times.  We don't learn how many, but cutting down the odds, from say, 200:1 to 100:1 would be enough to make the Reapers take up a less combative strategy.

[Schneidend]

wbaron wrote...

Who told you of the fraction of the fleet size defending the Citadel or the total size of the asari and turian combined might?

It's been stated by the devs on multiple occasions. The Citadel fleet was not like, the entire turian military or something. That'd be moronic.

There weren't even any dreadnaughts there besides the Ascension and Sovereign, as I said. This is canon. It was all cruisers, frigates, and destroyers.

[wbaron]

SunfighterG8 wrote...


Because the citadel can close up and become "nearly invunrable" i dunno how that works though to be honest....but id assume theyd try if the reapers attacked.

Just so I understand... the Reapers build the citadel to be invulnerable to attacks from themselves?  Seems shortsided of them.

[Tychu9]

I'm aware of the differences in Mass relays and the FTL drives, all I was saying was that since the Reapers are sitting just outside the galaxy in Dark Space it is not going to take them 5000 years to arrive to cause some trouble. Space is in 4 Dimensions so you have to realize that they may not all be coming from the outer edges of the galaxy but rather from above or below the galaxy whereas its going to take them very little time to reach the central systems.

[VictusUnus]

Something will happen, that we either cuased or we came across.

[marshalleck]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

You miss the whole point of the Reaper attacks.  The Reapers are farmers, not warriors.  They've perfected a strategy based on superior technology and piggybacking, and they don't show much real creativity outside of the plan.  If they come back to a militant universe on the defensive, the Reapers have a much more difficult fight that they aren't guaranteed to win.  Like any good predator, they want to win quickly and painlessly.  The Citadel plan is essential to their own survival.

If they're close enough to just fly right into the galaxy why don't they just fly to the closest in-galaxy Mass Relay and then launch a surprise assault on the citadel and take control of the network that way? No one even suspected of their existence until the whole Saren business, so if the whole lot of 'em showed up out of the blue one day it wouldn't be much of a fight for them.

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

Remember, they've done this a lot of times.  We don't learn how many, but cutting down the odds, from say, 200:1 to 100:1 would be enough to make the Reapers take up a less combative strategy.

You're still not getting it.

Nobody is questiong the value of taking the Citadel.

The question is this: if they can fly into the galaxy, why haven't they done precisely that some time in the last 2,000 years? Nobody has any idea of their existance, so they could transit to the nearest relay on the edge of the galaxy and use that to enter the Serpent Nebula and assault the Citadel. There would be no reason for Sovereign to be fussing with the Citadel all alone, potentially giving organic species a warning of their impending doom.

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

SunfighterG8 wrote...


Because the citadel can close up and become "nearly invunrable" i dunno how that works though to be honest....but id assume theyd try if the reapers attacked.

Just so I understand... the Reapers build the citadel to be invulnerable to attacks from themselves?  Seems shortsided of them.

The Reapers are not technological gods.  Their technology is advanced, not insurmountable.  Making the Citadel resistant to their own current technology would make perfect sense, given their ability and apparently tried and true method to quickly capture the structure.

[wbaron]

Schneidend wrote...

There weren't even any dreadnaughts there besides the Ascension and Sovereign, as I said. This is canon. It was all cruisers, frigates, and destroyers.

Well, I don't think either of us has a strong argument on this either way, but it's not really important.  The question still remains.  If this was a such an important task, why not send 2 reapers to ensure victory?  Why not 10?  Why not send in the Geth and Collectors while they were at it?  Seems like they sent the bare minimum considering what was on the line.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

I imagine they'd have to kill Shepard and convince people he was the son of God first, though.

wouldnt be too hard for a large devout following for shepard to follow after his death, because of the fact that he did in life much more tangible and believable things that anyone in any religious text has ever done in the history of our species.

the reapers are ther tangible equivalent of god as a metaphor. and to kill one puts shepard into a potentially "worshippable" position by any group of zealots looking for meaning in their lives.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers are not technological gods.  Their technology is advanced, not insurmountable.  Making the Citadel resistant to their own current technology would make perfect sense, given their ability and apparently tried and true method to quickly capture the structure.

Gods?  Maybe not, but they have technology that FAR surpasses anything else in the galaxy.  And they know it.

Given that, why make it more difficult to capture the citadel when their strategy seems to rely on it?

[KalliChan07]

The topic line of this thread is still funny lol.

Modifié par KalliChan07, 07 février 2010 - 04:37 .

[GnusmasTHX]

wbaron wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

There weren't even any dreadnaughts there besides the Ascension and Sovereign, as I said. This is canon. It was all cruisers, frigates, and destroyers.

Well, I don't think either of us has a strong argument on this either way, but it's not really important.  The question still remains.  If this was a such an important task, why not send 2 reapers to ensure victory?  Why not 10?  Why not send in the Geth and Collectors while they were at it?  Seems like they sent the bare minimum considering what was on the line.

You're forgetting that Sovereign and the geth dominated that battle until Shepard kills Saren (again) which triggers Sovereign's shields to collapse and it to... Die.

The only reason they lost was because of Shepard, which is kind of the entire point of the game.

[The Capital Gaultier]

marshalleck wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

You miss the whole point of the Reaper attacks.  The Reapers are farmers, not warriors.  They've perfected a strategy based on superior technology and piggybacking, and they don't show much real creativity outside of the plan.  If they come back to a militant universe on the defensive, the Reapers have a much more difficult fight that they aren't guaranteed to win.  Like any good predator, they want to win quickly and painlessly.  The Citadel plan is essential to their own survival.

If they're close enough to just fly right into the galaxy why don't they just fly to the closest in-galaxy Mass Relay and then launch a surprise assault on the citadel and take control of the network that way? No one even suspected of their existence until the whole Saren business, so if the whole lot of 'em showed up out of the blue one day it wouldn't be much of a fight for them.

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

Remember, they've done this a lot of times.  We don't learn how many, but cutting down the odds, from say, 200:1 to 100:1 would be enough to make the Reapers take up a less combative strategy.

You're still not getting it.

Nobody is questiong the value of taking the Citadel.

The question is this: if they can fly into the galaxy, why haven't they done precisely that some time in the last 2,000 years? Nobody has any idea of their existance, so they could transit to the nearest relay on the edge of the galaxy and use that to enter the Serpent Nebula and assault the Citadel. There would be no reason for Sovereign to be fussing with the Citadel all alone, potentially giving organic species a warning of their impending doom.

You need to read and understand the strategy.  Sovereign was only there to signal the Keepers to open the back door.  The strategy was flawless - except they underestimated the Protheans.  The current galaxy got a second chance, and Sovereign moved to plan B.  The Citadel is still the key.  Without it, the Reapers have no way of knowing where different creatures exist nor their technology nor culture.  Sacrificing that information would mean that a later attack might be repelled by a society 100,000 years old.  It would also mean that the Reapers would incur more direct losses in the current fight, maybe even losing.  The strategy is what keeps them at the top of the food chain.

[KalosCast]

wbaron wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

There weren't even any dreadnaughts there besides the Ascension and Sovereign, as I said. This is canon. It was all cruisers, frigates, and destroyers.

Well, I don't think either of us has a strong argument on this either way, but it's not really important.  The question still remains.  If this was a such an important task, why not send 2 reapers to ensure victory?  Why not 10?  Why not send in the Geth and Collectors while they were at it?  Seems like they sent the bare minimum considering what was on the line.

Overconfidence, not wanting to show their hand with an entire fleet cruising around (Reapers are vulnerable while hibernating). The fact that you were able to put any of the events in motion, let alone stop Saren was pure lucky timing...

[thethain]

Why use Mass Relay when you can fly there?

-Time and Energy. The default plan is to warp there with the mass relay. The citadel is the Mass Relay for the Milky Way, the reapers may farm hundreds, thousands, millions of galaxies. No one knows. This plan has worked most of the time, so you go with the plan that works with an acceptable failure risk.



Why make the human reaper?

-Backup plan, again less energy wasting than mobilizing your entire fleet for a cross universe trip, enable your available assets for an alternate plan, even if it risks destroying them.



The universe is the reapers farm, with different crops maturing at different times, 99% of the time you can leave one guy out there to take care of the business and send you back the goods. Therefore most of you and your reaper buddies can hang out in deepspace and do whatever reapers do to pass the time (it must be good, since they have to entertain themselves for millions of years). Mobilizing a fleet to invade means that this crop is a waste, as it will not provide the resources it has wasted by harvesting it. But it still needs to be taken care of so that it can be reseeded, and does not become a true threat later.

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers are not technological gods.  Their technology is advanced, not insurmountable.  Making the Citadel resistant to their own current technology would make perfect sense, given their ability and apparently tried and true method to quickly capture the structure.

Gods?  Maybe not, but they have technology that FAR surpasses anything else in the galaxy.  And they know it.

Given that, why make it more difficult to capture the citadel when their strategy seems to rely on it?

The Reapers' strategic goal is to harvest all life in the galaxy.  The fact that the Citadel is the key to the plan does not mean that they should sacrifice strategic aims just to capture the hub of the galaxy.

[SunfighterG8]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers are not technological gods.  Their technology is advanced, not insurmountable.  Making the Citadel resistant to their own current technology would make perfect sense, given their ability and apparently tried and true method to quickly capture the structure.

Gods?  Maybe not, but they have technology that FAR surpasses anything else in the galaxy.  And they know it.

Given that, why make it more difficult to capture the citadel when their strategy seems to rely on it?

As far as we know, they have never had to try to capture the station till ME1, so we have no idea how well their weapons would work against the station exterior. Assuming the station has never been totally rebuild in all the cycles, it seems to be a pretty tough nugget either way.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers are not technological gods.  Their technology is advanced, not insurmountable.  Making the Citadel resistant to their own current technology would make perfect sense, given their ability and apparently tried and true method to quickly capture the structure.

Gods?  Maybe not, but they have technology that FAR surpasses anything else in the galaxy.  And they know it.

Given that, why make it more difficult to capture the citadel when their strategy seems to rely on it?

The Reapers' strategic goal is to harvest all life in the galaxy.  The fact that the Citadel is the key to the plan does not mean that they should sacrifice strategic aims just to capture the hub of the galaxy.

You just said that the citadel is key.  Which means it IS their strategy.  Not successfully taking it was sacrificing their strategic aim.

Modifié par wbaron, 07 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[John Forseti]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

If you read what I posted you'll find I didn't suggest they come in like conquering warriors, taking territory and expanding outwards etc. but that they straight away launch a surprise assault on the citadel. You can't say thats not like them because that's exactly what happened in Mass Effect 1. Only it wasn't as much of a surprise as the Galaxy had been alerted to some kind of threat thanks to Saren and the Heretic Geth. And they almost managed to pull it off. So take away any kind of forces build up and add in that it's a fleet of Reapers instead of Geth and there you go. Citadel secured, information retrieved and relay network shut down.

The only reason not to do this, is if the Reaper fleet are so far out in intergalactic space that they can't make it back without using a relay.

[The Capital Gaultier]

SunfighterG8 wrote...

As far as we know, they have never had to try to capture the station till ME1, so we have no idea how well their weapons would work against the station exterior. Assuming the station has never been totally rebuild in all the cycles, it seems to be a pretty tough nugget either way.

I'd attribute that to the Keepers.  Seems that rebuilding the Citadel is something the Reapers want done, so those little greenies keep it in top shape.

[Schneidend]

wbaron wrote...

Well, I don't think either of us has a strong argument on this either way, but it's not really important.  The question still remains.  If this was a such an important task, why not send 2 reapers to ensure victory?  Why not 10?  Why not send in the Geth and Collectors while they were at it?  Seems like they sent the bare minimum considering what was on the line.

Sovereign may not have had contact with the Collectors. It's likely that reapers all have their own methods and leave each other to their own devices, and Harbinger uses the Collectors as his exclusive minions. They are each a nation, after all.

[The Capital Gaultier]

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

If you read what I posted you'll find I didn't suggest they come in like conquering warriors, taking territory and expanding outwards etc. but that they straight away launch a surprise assault on the citadel. You can't say thats not like them because that's exactly what happened in Mass Effect 1. Only it wasn't as much of a surprise as the Galaxy had been alerted to some kind of threat thanks to Saren and the Heretic Geth. And they almost managed to pull it off. So take away any kind of forces build up and add in that it's a fleet of Reapers instead of Geth and there you go. Citadel secured, information retrieved and relay network shut down.

The only reason not to do this, is if the Reaper fleet are so far out in intergalactic space that they can't make it back without using a relay.

The Mass Relays are at a specific, patrolled point in space.  Taking one of them (that is known to current galactic society) would reveal them.  With instantaneous point-to-point communication and the mass relays, the Citadel would not go down without a fight and a larger war would most likely result.  The information would be one of the first things to be wiped in a battle like that.  Irreplaceable loss to the Reapers, unless they have a plan for getting that data beforehand.