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[marshalleck]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

You miss the whole point of the Reaper attacks.  The Reapers are farmers, not warriors.  They've perfected a strategy based on superior technology and piggybacking, and they don't show much real creativity outside of the plan.  If they come back to a militant universe on the defensive, the Reapers have a much more difficult fight that they aren't guaranteed to win.  Like any good predator, they want to win quickly and painlessly.  The Citadel plan is essential to their own survival.

If they're close enough to just fly right into the galaxy why don't they just fly to the closest in-galaxy Mass Relay and then launch a surprise assault on the citadel and take control of the network that way? No one even suspected of their existence until the whole Saren business, so if the whole lot of 'em showed up out of the blue one day it wouldn't be much of a fight for them.

Because of their strategy.  Take the Citadel and you take the seat of galactic government.  Colonization records, numbers, locations, technology, culture - everything that the Reapers could want to divide and conquer as well as control of the mobility of the galaxy in the Mass Relays.  Flying in guns blazing is a warrior's strategy, and one that places the Reapers at greater risk of defeat.

Remember, they've done this a lot of times.  We don't learn how many, but cutting down the odds, from say, 200:1 to 100:1 would be enough to make the Reapers take up a less combative strategy.

You're still not getting it.

Nobody is questiong the value of taking the Citadel.

The question is this: if they can fly into the galaxy, why haven't they done precisely that some time in the last 2,000 years? Nobody has any idea of their existance, so they could transit to the nearest relay on the edge of the galaxy and use that to enter the Serpent Nebula and assault the Citadel. There would be no reason for Sovereign to be fussing with the Citadel all alone, potentially giving organic species a warning of their impending doom.

You need to read and understand the strategy.  Sovereign was only there to signal the Keepers to open the back door.  The strategy was flawless - except they underestimated the Protheans.  The current galaxy got a second chance, and Sovereign moved to plan B.  The Citadel is still the key.  Without it, the Reapers have no way of knowing where different creatures exist nor their technology nor culture.  Sacrificing that information would mean that a later attack might be repelled by a society 100,000 years old.  It would also mean that the Reapers would incur more direct losses in the current fight, maybe even losing.  The strategy is what keeps them at the top of the food chain.

Congratulations on completely skirting the question. Again, for like the third or fourth time, I'm not asking why they want the Citadel.

[SunfighterG8]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

SunfighterG8 wrote...

As far as we know, they have never had to try to capture the station till ME1, so we have no idea how well their weapons would work against the station exterior. Assuming the station has never been totally rebuild in all the cycles, it seems to be a pretty tough nugget either way.

I'd attribute that to the Keepers.  Seems that rebuilding the Citadel is something the Reapers want done, so those little greenies keep it in top shape.

yes the interior of the station can be damaged, as we saw in ME1, tho we dont really know how much of that interior was built recently by the races involved either, but im assuming the exterior part is the 'unbreakable' part hence why bother shielding if the whole station is crazy armored..

[The Capital Gaultier]

marshalleck wrote...

Congratulations on completely skirting the question. Again, for like the third or fourth time, I'm not asking why they want the Citadel.

Seat of galactic government, priceless data on races of the galaxy and control over the relay system.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

I think the writers may have dug themselves into a hole here.

Everytime someone says that, BioWare drowns a kitten in maple syrup (cheaper than water up there in Canada).

Seriously, a company with a writing pedegree like Bioware does not write something like Mass Effect without outlining first.

Sure, Mass Effect 1 had fewer holes because it was the FIRST game. It needed to wrap up as much as possible because it is critical for a first game in a franchise.

Now, their free to try something a bit more open, and yes, that usually means more holes, (but tell me one "2nd part" of a franchise that doesn't have some.) BW probably has 3 mostly written by the time the finish up 2. They have to make a "Bible" of all these plots to make sure everything has a solution, eventually.

[marshalleck]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Seat of galactic government,
priceless data on races of the galaxy and control over the relay
system.

Right, now I think you're trolling. No human is that dense.

Modifié par marshalleck, 07 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[Frotality]

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay? they made that technology at least 37 million years ago for their little scheme, id think they would have adavnced beyond it considering the protheans were on the verge of figuring it out. they could teleport for all we know, but what little we can gather from the end of ME2 is that they dont simply want to kill all life, they have goals that dont include utter destruction.

2. why dont they just wait out shepard's lifespan? either they cant and perhaps they need to do whatever they want to do now, or my personal theory: they wanted a human reaper becuase they want the best genetic material for their creation, and shepard is supposedly 'the best humanity has to offer", so simply put shep is the best of the best, exactly what they want.

[LK Tien]

what does FTL drive stand for? "for the lost" drives?

[The Capital Gaultier]

marshalleck wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Seat of galactic government,
priceless data on races of the galaxy and control over the relay
system.

Right, now I think you're trolling. No human is that dense.

Ah, so you are just baiting people.  Good luck with that.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Double up!

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 07 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[marshalleck]

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

[DuffyMJ]

The reason they needed the Citadel was for its inaccessible core which controlled access to the rest of the galaxy and allowed for the isolation of all the systems so they could be wiped out one at a time. If the Citadel were attacked through the normal relay instead of the Citadel relay, the ward arms could be closed preventing the Reapers from getting in. That's why Saren used the conduit, he snuck in their and took out Citadel control and the arms didn't close until Sovereign got in (preventing any attack on the reaper).

So either the reapers are still hunting for a way to activate the citadel (probably why they were building a new reaper out of humans) or they're going all-in and attempting a conventional war, meaning shepard's task in 3 is likely uniting all the various galactic factions -- instead of squad mates -- against the reapers.  I say this because I thought after talking to Vigil that the Reapers aren't big bad bogeymen, they win because they isolate, infiltrate, and divide and conquer.  If it took them centuries to do the job against the Protheans with each planet isolated and cut off and all that intel gathered from the citadel, then I doubt they could actually beat council space in an opposite scenerio (that is, where the reapers don't know all that much without citadel data, and where we know a lot more about them from the get-go than even the prothean scientist survivors knew).

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 07 février 2010 - 04:59 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

marshalleck wrote...

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

Capturing the relays is not the ultimate goal of the Reapers.

[SunfighterG8]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

I think the writers may have dug themselves into a hole here.

Everytime someone says that, BioWare drowns a kitten in maple syrup (cheaper than water up there in Canada).

Seriously, a company with a writing pedegree like Bioware does not write something like Mass Effect without outlining first.

Sure, Mass Effect 1 had fewer holes because it was the FIRST game. It needed to wrap up as much as possible because it is critical for a first game in a franchise.

Now, their free to try something a bit more open, and yes, that usually means more holes, (but tell me one "2nd part" of a franchise that doesn't have some.) BW probably has 3 mostly written by the time the finish up 2. They have to make a "Bible" of all these plots to make sure everything has a solution, eventually.

It has some pretty good holes though....I mean for example:

1) how did mordin get that reaper seeker bug in that cutscene?

2) If you need an IFF to go though the gate then what are all those ship husks doing there? And why does it imply that ships go though the gate without one a lot?

3) They claim the Normandy 2 is a copy of the Norm 1....so why is the mass effect core so different? And why does it look way less cooler? It reminds me of an ancient broiler..

[KalosCast]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

Capturing the relays is not the ultimate goal of the Reapers.

I love you.

[John Forseti]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Mass Relays are at a specific, patrolled point in space.  Taking one of them (that is known to current galactic society) would reveal them. 

It wouldn't reveal them until they popped out on the other side, and blasted anything not reaper.

The Capital Gaultier wrote...With instantaneous point-to-point communication and the mass relays, the Citadel would not go down without a fight and a larger war would most likely result. 

The quantem entalglement communicators are extremely rare, and I don't think all the citadel species would be able to rally their fleets to reinforce the citadel the second a hostile fleet pops out the Widow system relay. They take a few minutes, maybe an hour or two to wipe out the the standard guard and then switch off the mass relay network. All those guiz is stranded.

The Capital Gaultier wrote...The information would be one of the first things to be wiped in a battle like that.  Irreplaceable loss to the Reapers, unless they have a plan for getting that data beforehand.

A hostile alien force appears. Your first thought - "Format the hard drives!". Unlikely.

[Tychu9]

marshalleck wrote...

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

I don't agree about that.  The reason why the Citadel relay is so important is that it takes them to the capital of the galactic community.  Strike there first, take over and the rest of the galaxy is paralyzed and can't really oppose you.  "Cut off the head the body dies" sort of thing.  

[The Capital Gaultier]

John Forseti wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Mass Relays are at a specific, patrolled point in space.  Taking one of them (that is known to current galactic society) would reveal them. 

It wouldn't reveal them until they popped out on the other side, and blasted anything not reaper.

Many races have patrols around relays, not just the Citadel relay.

The Capital Gaultier wrote...With instantaneous point-to-point communication and the mass relays, the Citadel would not go down without a fight and a larger war would most likely result. 

The quantem entalglement communicators are extremely rare, and I don't think all the citadel species would be able to rally their fleets to reinforce the citadel the second a hostile fleet pops out the Widow system relay. They take a few minutes, maybe an hour or two to wipe out the the standard guard and then switch off the mass relay network. All those guiz is stranded.

I seriously doubt that they'd be able to get a large fleet to the citadel without being spotted.  Unless they have a cloaking device on each ship, which so far is untrue.

The Capital Gaultier wrote...The information would be one of the first things to be wiped in a battle like that.  Irreplaceable loss to the Reapers, unless they have a plan for getting that data beforehand.

A hostile alien force appears. Your first thought - "Format the hard drives!". Unlikely.

Not your first thought.  However, if the Citadel arms are closed and you've been blasted by the Reapers for a few weeks, with some minions reaching the inside of the Citadel, you would want to eliminate data about yourself.  This is standard procedure in the modern military, for sure.

[spartan5127]

I thought that in the first game they needed to use the citadel relay to wake the reapers in dark space from hibernation. That's why sovereign needed to stay behind. At least that's how the first one explained it I believe.

[DuffyMJ]

The answer to marshalleck's question:



the first reaction of the citadel fleet when soverign arrived was "seal the ward arms!" but it didn't happen because Saren took control of the station through the conduit, thus the reaper was able to fly in before the arms closed. If the reapers came to any old mass relay at the edge of the galaxy and jumped to the citadel, the arms would be sealed and the galactic government and all their vital data would be preserved. This is the entire point of the Prothean counter-attack, they took away the Keepers from them and with them the Citadel. Without the Citadel, organic life in the galaxy has instantaneous travel and communications and the capability to unite the resources and minds of the galaxy against the reapers. The Reapers NEED to use subterfuge to retake the Citadel, or their invasion will be pointless and costly.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

Capturing the relays is not the ultimate goal of the Reapers.

Nope, apparently their goal is to get wiped out one by one until the rest of them just get here anyway.  Alerting the entire galaxy to the threat in the process.

[GnusmasTHX]

[quote]The Capital Gaultier wrote...

A hostile alien force appears. Your first thought - "Format the hard drives!". Unlikely.

[/quote]

[/quote]

Yeah. It's actually EXACTLY what they do in Transformers...

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 07 février 2010 - 05:05 .

[John Forseti]

SunfighterG8 wrote...

1) how did mordin get that reaper seeker bug in that cutscene?

Holy poop, yes...

SunfighterG8 wrote...

2) If you need an IFF to go though the gate then what are all those ship husks doing there? And why does it imply that ships go though the gate without one a lot?

They explain that one, you can use the relay without the IFF but if you do, it doesn't put you in the "safe zone" and your ship gets torn apart by black holes.

SunfighterG8 wrote...
3) They claim the Normandy 2 is a copy of the Norm 1....so why is the mass effect core so different? And why does it look way less cooler? It reminds me of an ancient broiler..

It's not an exact copy, EDI says as much in a conversation with Joker I think, and the codex tells you it's about twice the size.

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Frotality wrote...

1. who is to say the reapers are limited by the absence of a mass relay?

The events of the first game. If they didn't need the Citadel relay, Sovereign wouldn't have invested 2,000 years of effort into capturing it.

Capturing the relays is not the ultimate goal of the Reapers.

Nope, apparently their goal is to get wiped out one by one until the rest of them just get here anyway.  Alerting the entire galaxy to the threat in the process.

They made a mistake with the Protheans.  Problem with being organic.  Had this minor mistake not occurred, Shepard would be a Xunian.

[AdrynBliss]

oi vey of course their not flying in from dark space. even at ftl speeds it would still take god knows how long. does no one listen to the dialouge anymore! harbinger simply says 'we will find another way'.

[John Forseti]

Heres a picture of the citadel;



Question: How does closing the ward arms seal that great big hole at the back?

Modifié par John Forseti, 07 février 2010 - 05:08 .