357 réponses à ce sujet

[wbaron]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Well I don't doubt that the Reapers could/would be able to smash their way into the Citadel, but presumably by the time that were accomplished, vital records on documents aboard the Citadel would be purged (just as USA's embassy in Moscow burned it's cryptography machines and the like during the Cuban Missile Crisis).  It sucks for the Reapers since it's a little bit convenient like you said, but if you think about it, they had to design the Citadel to be this great fortress in order to make it attractive to the organics'.  it's what makes the thing attractive as a political/military capital location -- it's apparently invulnerability.  In that sense it's a gamble, and the keepers were essentially the Trojan horse, one that the Protheans sabotaged.  The Keepers probably do lock the organics' out of the controls, but the thing is, once just a few Reapers make their way into the ward arms, it's pretty much over anyway even if they do manage to regain control somehow, i mean soverign did enough damage in its brief attack that it took 7 years to repair.  It would be cool if they put out a graphic novel or something about the fall of the protheans so we could see how exactly the trap is sprung.

1.  Vital records should already have been stolen by Saren and delivered to lots of safe places by now.  Locating colonies, stations, outposts etc would not be all the difficult to find even if the citadel inhabitants decided to 'format the drives'.  The geth have been spying on extranets for hundreds of years anyway.

2.  Making the citadel a 'fortress' seems like a great way to make it appealing to organics with vastly inferior tech.  Making it a fortress that keeps out Reapers seems like an oversight that should cost at least 1 reaper it's job.  Even if they had the ace-in-the-hole keepers.

3.  I agree on the graphic novel.  That would be pretty cool.  Seems like a good idea for a darker prequel game too.

[Missouri Tigers]

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

Think about it.  If they attack first at the Citadel, they get rid of the central hub of the galaxy.  They kill the leaders and all the politicians, leaving everybody divided with nobody really able to get off a counterattack.  If they fly in, they first must hit outer planets and people will learn what is happening and we will all be able to get ready for them.

[wbaron]

That wasn't the question. Again.

How do you prepare for a fleet of thousands of Reapers at your doorstep?  Descriptions of the battle for the citadel indicate that 1 Reaper is more than a match for an entire "massive" fleet of organics ships.

If the collective species can't respond to whole colonies getting wiped out/disappearing, they probably can't/won't respond to that well either.

Also, the reapers would only need to swoop into the nearest mass relay, spend a few minutes punishing anything that moves and then, bam, be instantaneously at the citidel with enough overwhelming and surprising force to easily enforce their will.

Modifié par wbaron, 07 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[marshalleck]

Oh god, another one. I think I need to go back and edit that post.



Is it really so unclear what I was asking there?

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Well I don't doubt that the Reapers could/would be able to smash their way into the Citadel, but presumably by the time that were accomplished, vital records on documents aboard the Citadel would be purged (just as USA's embassy in Moscow burned it's cryptography machines and the like during the Cuban Missile Crisis).  It sucks for the Reapers since it's a little bit convenient like you said, but if you think about it, they had to design the Citadel to be this great fortress in order to make it attractive to the organics'.  it's what makes the thing attractive as a political/military capital location -- it's apparently invulnerability.  In that sense it's a gamble, and the keepers were essentially the Trojan horse, one that the Protheans sabotaged.  The Keepers probably do lock the organics' out of the controls, but the thing is, once just a few Reapers make their way into the ward arms, it's pretty much over anyway even if they do manage to regain control somehow, i mean soverign did enough damage in its brief attack that it took 7 years to repair.  It would be cool if they put out a graphic novel or something about the fall of the protheans so we could see how exactly the trap is sprung.

1.  Vital records should already have been stolen by Saren and delivered to lots of safe places by now.  Locating colonies, stations, outposts etc would not be all the difficult to find even if the citadel inhabitants decided to 'format the drives'.  The geth have been spying on extranets for hundreds of years anyway.

The Reapers failed to locate all of the Protheans.  This was their undoing.  They had the Citadel in a blitz then and still failed ultimately.  It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place.

[MasonK]

If you played ME1 you know Shepard is not the one that defeated the Reaper plans. It was the Protheans. The Protheans are the reason Shepard and the rest of the galaxy are not dead. Vigil clearly explained on Ilos that the science team were the only survivors of the cryogenic hybernation, and they took a one way trip to the Citadel, through the Conduit(that they made) and reprogrammed the Keepers to not respond to Sovereign, or any other Reaper left in the Galaxy.



That was the whole point of Sovereign going to the Citadel. He had to get there and take care of it personally. The Conduit was sought out by Sovereign so that Saren could take a back door into the Citadel at the same time Sovereign and his Geth fleet warped in to attack. The reason for secrecy is so the entire galaxy does not take notice and take down Sovereign.



Now, the Reapers obviously left more than one of their kind behind in case of problems like the one that took place in ME1. So there must be other Reapers hiding in the galaxy. In ME1, there are various hints at what could be Reapers hiding beneath the clouds of gas planets. Obviously, one of them is controlling the collector general that you see at the end of ME2.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers failed to locate all of the Protheans.  This was their undoing.  They had the Citadel in a blitz then and still failed ultimately.  It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place.

That is true regardless of whether or not the citadel is taken with it's data intact or not.  Making that goal moot and flawed. 

As far as 'failed ultimately', I think you should ask a prothean... I mean Collector.

Modifié par wbaron, 07 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The Reapers failed to locate all of the Protheans.  This was their undoing.  They had the Citadel in a blitz then and still failed ultimately.  It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place.

That is true regardless of whether or not the citadel is taken with it's data intact or not.  Making that goal moot and flawed. 

The thing about the Protheans was that they specifically destroyed data and severed connections quickly.  That is directly relevant.  Obviously they didn't scrub all of it or Shepard would be a Prothean.  However, they got enough to put humanity in a fighting position.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 07 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[Urazz]

They'll probably be able to get here in a few years easily but the problem is they'll probably waste resources/fuel and won't be at top shape for taking on the Galaxy like they would if Soveriegn didn't do an epic fail in ME1.

[CreepingGeth]

MasonK wrote...
 In ME1, there are various hints at what could be Reapers hiding beneath the clouds of gas planets. Obviously, one of them is controlling the collector general that you see at the end of ME2.

The one controlling the General is Harbinger, and it is doing so from Dark Space. It is at the helm of the fleet at the end.

How it is assuming control all the way from Dark Space, I have no clue.

[DuffyMJ]

wbaron wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Well I don't doubt that the Reapers could/would be able to smash their way into the Citadel, but presumably by the time that were accomplished, vital records on documents aboard the Citadel would be purged (just as USA's embassy in Moscow burned it's cryptography machines and the like during the Cuban Missile Crisis).  It sucks for the Reapers since it's a little bit convenient like you said, but if you think about it, they had to design the Citadel to be this great fortress in order to make it attractive to the organics'.  it's what makes the thing attractive as a political/military capital location -- it's apparently invulnerability.  In that sense it's a gamble, and the keepers were essentially the Trojan horse, one that the Protheans sabotaged.  The Keepers probably do lock the organics' out of the controls, but the thing is, once just a few Reapers make their way into the ward arms, it's pretty much over anyway even if they do manage to regain control somehow, i mean soverign did enough damage in its brief attack that it took 7 years to repair.  It would be cool if they put out a graphic novel or something about the fall of the protheans so we could see how exactly the trap is sprung.

1.  Vital records should already have been stolen by Saren and delivered to lots of safe places by now.  Locating colonies, stations, outposts etc would not be all the difficult to find even if the citadel inhabitants decided to 'format the drives'.  The geth have been spying on extranets for hundreds of years anyway.

2.  Making the citadel a 'fortress' seems like a great way to make it appealing to organics with vastly inferior tech.  Making it a fortress that keeps out Reapers seems like an oversight that should cost at least 1 reaper it's job.  Even if they had the ace-in-the-hole keepers.

3.  I agree on the graphic novel.  That would be pretty cool.  Seems like a good idea for a darker prequel game too.

Yeah but I mean you can only learn as much from the extra-net and all that jazz as you can learn about US security from the Internet... It's highly likely that all information about Spectres, force deployment, weapons research, diplomatic arrangements, blah blah blah can only be found in secure records on the Citadel.  Hell, I work for my state's government myself and we have some information and statistics about State Police and civil defense information (crime victim survey data for instance in my own work) that can only be accessed by going -- in person -- to state police headquarters which happens to be a in a secure cold-war era complex.

It's not an oversight, the Citadel, if you ask me.  The point is making it a very very formidable place like you said so it's attractive as a capital.  The reapers had a secret weapon to undermine in: the Keepers.  No Keepers, no citadel.  They never expected the Keepers to be undermined, because they never anticipated the conduit.  I don't see what other back door the reapers could have made that wouldn't have been obvious to an organic civ. 

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 07 février 2010 - 06:17 .

[deusofnull]

The Black Ghost wrote...

I think the writers may have dug themselves into a hole here. I'd love to see them explain this one. The Reapers are out past the edge of the universe and theyre going in for a full attack...!                ...On sublight drives?

They wont have to worry about Shepard because by the time they reach the galaxy, Shepard will be dead, along with anyone related to the story.

If the Reapers start their engines now, they will run out of battery sooner or later, and since they cant use the mass relays, they're stuck out there for a long time.

Might have to do with the suns going nova with Dark Energy n' stuff.  Maybe...
But really, theyre the reapers!  Maybe they have mass relay SHIPS that fly with them and can be used to jump forward a few thousand light years at a time.
We'll see.  All I can say is this; theyre ****ing reapers, theyre guna get here and theyre guna rip all of us to shreds... accept for Shepard.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The thing about the Protheans was that they specifically destroyed data and severed connections quickly.  That is directly relevant.  Obviously they didn't scrub all of it or Shepard would be a Prothean.  However, they got enough to put humanity in a fighting position.

True and completely irrelevant to the point.  Yes, they were able to 'hide' some of their numbers from the Reapers.  If anything, that realization should change the Reapers pattern for attack.  They should not rely on data solely from the Citadel since during the last cycle they were not able to sweep the entire Galaxy as planned.

As stated, one of the reasons behind taking the citadel by subterfuge vs force is that this data remains intact.  Since they already know this plan is flawed, it doesn't make sense to leave it unaltered.

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

The thing about the Protheans was that they specifically destroyed data and severed connections quickly.  That is directly relevant.  Obviously they didn't scrub all of it or Shepard would be a Prothean.  However, they got enough to put humanity in a fighting position.

True and completely irrelevant to the point.  Yes, they were able to 'hide' some of their numbers from the Reapers.  If anything, that realization should change the Reapers pattern for attack.  They should not rely on data solely from the Citadel since during the last cycle they were not able to sweep the entire Galaxy as planned.

As stated, one of the reasons behind taking the citadel by subterfuge vs force is that this data remains intact.  Since they already know this plan is flawed, it doesn't make sense to leave it unaltered.

They did not know that the plan was flawed until Sovereign failed.  If Shepard fails, they'd only need to fix the keepers and maybe add another safeguard if possible.  However, they have not had a chance to respond yet.  Obviously, they're in for a fight this time around.

It is totally relevant that the Protheans were able to help the galactic society after their own, however.

[wbaron]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Yeah but I mean you can only learn as much from the extra-net and all that jazz as you can learn about US security from the Internet... It's highly likely that all information about Spectres, force deployment, weapons research, diplomatic arrangements, blah blah blah can only be found in secure records on the Citadel.  Hell, I work for my state's government myself and we have some information and statistics about State Police and civil defense information (crime victim survey data for instance in my own work) that can only be accessed by going -- in person -- to state police headquarters which happens to be a in a secure cold-war era complex.

I guess it depends on what they are looking for.  I find it hard to believe that the care too much about anything other than "where are they".  You don't need to hack into the pentagon to find out where New York City is.   Let's look at worst case scenario.  Let's say they get no data at all from the citadel.  What does this mean for them?  That they have a to spend a few more years, or even a few hundred years playing hide-and-seek with any remaining small pockets of resistance?  They are 'patient' after all. 

Also, Saren was a Spectre, and fully under Sovereign's control.  He should have been able to slip all the data that Sovereign could ever want to him, or at least a good chunk of it.

It's not an oversight, the Citadel, if you ask me.  The point is making it a very very formidable place like you said so it's attractive as a capital.  The reapers had a secret weapon to undermine in: the Keepers.  No Keepers, no citadel.  They never expected the Keepers to be undermined, because they never anticipated the conduit.  I don't see what other back door the reapers could have made that wouldn't have been obvious to an organic civ. 

I understand they didn't expect the keepers to be altered.  I still don't see what the advantage to making the citadel impervious to Reaper weaponry/tech is or for not having a contingency plan should something go wrong with the keepers.  They seem to have lots of other backup plans, just conveniently for humanity, much less convenient for the Reapers.

Modifié par wbaron, 07 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

They did not know that the plan was flawed until Sovereign failed.  If Shepard fails, they'd only need to fix the keepers and maybe add another safeguard if possible.  However, they have not had a chance to respond yet.  Obviously, they're in for a fight this time around.

It is totally relevant that the Protheans were able to help the galactic society after their own, however.

I concede the point that they only recently realized the Keepers were altered, however, shouldn't they have know that, as you put it; "It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place."

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

They did not know that the plan was flawed until Sovereign failed.  If Shepard fails, they'd only need to fix the keepers and maybe add another safeguard if possible.  However, they have not had a chance to respond yet.  Obviously, they're in for a fight this time around.

It is totally relevant that the Protheans were able to help the galactic society after their own, however.

I concede the point that they only recently realized the Keepers were altered, however, shouldn't they have know that, as you put it; "It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place."

That is something of an open question.  I would tentatively think that they planned to harvest a huge mass of information, communications logs and such that they designed to be used so that they could root out all sufficiently advanced civilizations.  For example, humans were around 50,000 years ago, so in the timeline of Mass Effect, the Reapers either did not have the time/resources to find all possibly intelligent life or they need the infrastructure of the relay system to find them, or that they ignored certain forms that they did find.

[MasonK]

CreepingGeth wrote...

MasonK wrote...
 In ME1, there are various hints at what could be Reapers hiding beneath the clouds of gas planets. Obviously, one of them is controlling the collector general that you see at the end of ME2.

The one controlling the General is Harbinger, and it is doing so from Dark Space. It is at the helm of the fleet at the end.

How it is assuming control all the way from Dark Space, I have no clue.

Do you think it is him from Dark Space because of the similarities in design?  I see what you're saying, but to make sense of the plot in ME1 he cannot be one of them "hybernating" in Dark Space. 

[i7206]

Unato wrote...

as someone once said on said forum, they move at the speed of plot

ie, they'll be here by ME 3

LOL, so true.  Everyone settle down, they'll be here on time.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

They did not know that the plan was flawed until Sovereign failed.  If Shepard fails, they'd only need to fix the keepers and maybe add another safeguard if possible.  However, they have not had a chance to respond yet.  Obviously, they're in for a fight this time around.

It is totally relevant that the Protheans were able to help the galactic society after their own, however.

I concede the point that they only recently realized the Keepers were altered, however, shouldn't they have know that, as you put it; "It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place."

That is something of an open question.  I would tentatively think that they planned to harvest a huge mass of information, communications logs and such that they designed to be used so that they could root out all sufficiently advanced civilizations.  For example, humans were around 50,000 years ago, so in the timeline of Mass Effect, the Reapers either did not have the time/resources to find all possibly intelligent life or they need the infrastructure of the relay system to find them, or that they ignored certain forms that they did find.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.   The reapers did not get all of the Protheans, which as you stated, should have been obvious to them that they would not get them all based on statistics alone.  They ignored the humans and all other current races in ME because they were not sufficiently advanced.  

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that the data from the citadel is not a necessity to accomplishing their cycle, at least as far as they are concerned.

[wbaron]

i7206 wrote...

Unato wrote...

as someone once said on said forum, they move at the speed of plot

ie, they'll be here by ME 3

LOL, so true.  Everyone settle down, they'll be here on time.

I sure hope not... that would be the biggest plothole yet.  If they get here and it's not 'game over', I'm walking away in disgust.

[MasonK]

Default137 wrote...

That, or there is the fact that there is evidence someone is messing around with Dark Matter, and using it on suns, which if you know anything about Science could lead to uh, black holes, white holes, or ****, all sorts of bad things, and for all we know, the Reapers could be using this to help them get over, but didn't want to go with this plan when they still had the original one in motion.

This is an interesting idea.  From the intro screen, and from the trailers there seemed to be an emphasis on a ominous/dark star. 

[AoiDreamer]

They're totally not going to drive here, but really using the collector's to harvest humanity seems like a pretty desperate plan to take over galactic civilization. Seems like they were really pulling at straws with that one to replace Sovereign. With the collector's gone it just stands to reason that they'll hafta goto a last resort or something plan to get here, for personally I don't think it's possible for them to get here any other way. There's a youtube video that tells you how many millions of lightyears a shot like that is, I think I remember one like that like a billion or so. If they wanted to drive we'd be more advanced than they are by the time they got here.



It's like Virgil said.



They're trapped in darkspace.

[docthe12th]

Assuming that Sovereign was telling the truth, the relays were mainly to direct galactic advancement, making species reliant on them for fast travel and networking through them. It also claimed that the Reapers shut the relays down during harvest to isolate systems. This would indicate that the Reapers don't "need" the Mass Relays (perhaps they have them built into their massive bodies, even) any more than a gardener needs a trellis for his/her own use. The Citadel was of strategic importance, yes, but not primarily as a relay in this scenario. if this is correct, getting there isn't the issue, dealing with an aware galaxy is.

[DuffyMJ]

wbaron wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Yeah but I mean you can only learn as much from the extra-net and all that jazz as you can learn about US security from the Internet... It's highly likely that all information about Spectres, force deployment, weapons research, diplomatic arrangements, blah blah blah can only be found in secure records on the Citadel.  Hell, I work for my state's government myself and we have some information and statistics about State Police and civil defense information (crime victim survey data for instance in my own work) that can only be accessed by going -- in person -- to state police headquarters which happens to be a in a secure cold-war era complex.

I guess it depends on what they are looking for.  I find it hard to believe that the care too much about anything other than "where are they".  You don't need to hack into the pentagon to find out where New York City is.   Let's look at worst case scenario.  Let's say they get no data at all from the citadel.  What does this mean for them?  That they have a to spend a few more years, or even a few hundred years playing hide-and-seek with any remaining small pockets of resistance?  They are 'patient' after all. 

Also, Saren was a Spectre, and fully under Sovereign's control.  He should have been able to slip all the data that Sovereign could ever want to him, or at least a good chunk of it.

It's not an oversight, the Citadel, if you ask me.  The point is making it a very very formidable place like you said so it's attractive as a capital.  The reapers had a secret weapon to undermine in: the Keepers.  No Keepers, no citadel.  They never expected the Keepers to be undermined, because they never anticipated the conduit.  I don't see what other back door the reapers could have made that wouldn't have been obvious to an organic civ. 

I understand they didn't expect the keepers to be altered.  I still don't see what the advantage to making the citadel impervious to Reaper weaponry/tech is or for not having a contingency plan should something go wrong with the keepers.  They seem to have lots of other backup plans, just conveniently for humanity, much less convenient for the Reapers.

I doubt it's impervious to Reaper weaponry, just resistant enough to a degree that vital records could be destroyed or snap leadership decisions/emergency command and control could be established.  Even if the Citadel could only survive without being breached for an hour it would be enough time for C-Sec to establish headquarters, militias to be alerted, escape vectors for the council to be planned, etc.  The Reaper assault also needs to be powerful enough, yet subtle and precise enough, to penetrate the Citadel, but not compromise it to the point where it or it's data aren't salvagable.

Saren's story is kind of interesting and it's debatable how much he was indoctrinated, because over-indoctrinating organics apparently turns them into mindless loons.  Also the Virmire facility was studying and probably attempting to overcome indoctrination... Saren's evilness may not have really blossomed until his spectre status was revoked.  sovereign's actions also seem to indicate that the vanguard was far more interested in rooting out the last of the prothean meddling and destroying it (using the beacons that only organics can use) than it was concerned with restarting the new cycle.