357 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

They did not know that the plan was flawed until Sovereign failed.  If Shepard fails, they'd only need to fix the keepers and maybe add another safeguard if possible.  However, they have not had a chance to respond yet.  Obviously, they're in for a fight this time around.

It is totally relevant that the Protheans were able to help the galactic society after their own, however.

I concede the point that they only recently realized the Keepers were altered, however, shouldn't they have know that, as you put it; "It's not unlikely that advanced civilizations would be able to hide from the Reapers.  The galaxy is a huge place."

That is something of an open question.  I would tentatively think that they planned to harvest a huge mass of information, communications logs and such that they designed to be used so that they could root out all sufficiently advanced civilizations.  For example, humans were around 50,000 years ago, so in the timeline of Mass Effect, the Reapers either did not have the time/resources to find all possibly intelligent life or they need the infrastructure of the relay system to find them, or that they ignored certain forms that they did find.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.   The reapers did not get all of the Protheans, which as you stated, should have been obvious to them that they would not get them all based on statistics alone.  They ignored the humans and all other current races in ME because they were not sufficiently advanced.  

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that the data from the citadel is not a necessity to accomplishing their cycle, at least as far as they are concerned.

I'm not convinced that humans were ignored by the Reapers.  My own feelings are that some one or thing purposely froze the Charon relay in ice (the Protheans had cryo tech as seen on Ilos) in order to protect us from the Reapers or shelter us from the galactic cycle.  Protheans clearly were aware of us and studied us, and the artiacts on Mars apparently included ships, Eezo, functioning tech. etc, which means it was likely overlooked by the Reapers.  My theory is that the science team that went through the conduit managed to reach Earth and were likely the ones who observed humans in the little story bit we get from the Consort's trinket about early humans.

[LaughingDragon]

I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but I would like to remind everyone:

Even if the reapers are traveling at FTL speeds, traveling from beyond the galaxy (dark space) into the galaxy would still take a very very long time. In fact, assuming they are traveling at exactly light speed, it would take over 100,000 years of nonstop flight to cross the milky way galaxy.

The amount of energy required to power a ship flying at that speed, across that distance, is imeasurable. Even by science fiction standards, including warp core, or anything, there is just no way imaginable to cross that distance except by wormhole or some method beyond 4 dimensional mathematics.

Now, I guess the mass relays somehow allow for very fast travel across distances, but again its already been pointed out in the story that the reapers cannot return through the mass relay because the citadel (receiving end of the relay) is shut down by the keepers who wont open it.

Modifié par LaughingDragon, 07 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[Snowraptor]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

2000 years? What?

Also the same reason people  drive to destinations instead of walk. Also in this case, your destination has some strategic value as a hub for all Relays and the seat of galactic government.

you mustve forgoton that the rachi wars was caused by the reapers, indoctinated rachni

[MasonK]

DuffyMJ wrote...
I'm not convinced that humans were ignored by the Reapers.  My own feelings are that some one or thing purposely froze the Charon relay in ice (the Protheans had cryo tech as seen on Ilos) in order to protect us from the Reapers or shelter us from the galactic cycle.  Protheans clearly were aware of us and studied us, and the artiacts on Mars apparently included ships, Eezo, functioning tech. etc, which means it was likely overlooked by the Reapers.  My theory is that the science team that went through the conduit managed to reach Earth and were likely the ones who observed humans in the little story bit we get from the Consort's trinket about early humans.

More likely, the Protheans observed and tested humans before the cycle.  Keep in mind that the Conduit was experimental, and a one way trip.  If they could leave the Citadel, surely they would have made their way back to Ilos.  This was a small group of Prothean scientists after all.  Vigils admits they most likely died on the Citadel.   

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.   The reapers did not get all of the Protheans, which as you stated, should have been obvious to them that they would not get them all based on statistics alone.  They ignored the humans and all other current races in ME because they were not sufficiently advanced.  

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that the data from the citadel is not a necessity to accomplishing their cycle, at least as far as they are concerned.

I would thoroughly disagree with that.  Shipping manifests, communication points, logs, technology, culture, etcetera - I think that all of those things are essential to the Reapers' plans.  The Citadel may have the capability of shutting down mobility, but how to deal with and where to deal with individual outposts and planets can be better assessed with intelligence.  What better intelligence could there be than the intelligence gained in the enemy's seat of power?

[Snowraptor]

LaughingDragon wrote...

I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but I would like to remind everyone:

Even if the reapers are traveling at FTL speeds, traveling from beyond the galaxy (dark space) into the galaxy would still take a very very long time. In fact, assuming they are traveling at exactly light speed, it would take over 100,000 years of nonstop flight to cross the milky way galaxy.

The amount of energy required to power a ship flying at that speed, across that distance, is imeasurable. Even by science fiction standards, including warp core, or anything, there is just no way imaginable to cross that distance except by wormhole or some method beyond 4 dimensional mathematics.

well ftls are faster than light speeds, plus, im sure reapers wouldnt just risk themselves in dark space having only the citadel as their gate way to the galaxy, thier MILLIONS of years old, thier obssessed with being invinceable and definatly dont ever want to stop living, there not stupid

[HAGA NAGA]

The Black Ghost wrote...

I think the writers may have dug themselves into a hole here. I'd love to see them explain this one. The Reapers are out past the edge of the universe and theyre going in for a full attack...!                ...On sublight drives?

They wont have to worry about Shepard because by the time they reach the galaxy, Shepard will be dead, along with anyone related to the story.

If the Reapers start their engines now, they will run out of battery sooner or later, and since they cant use the mass relays, they're stuck out there for a long time.

 
cool story, bro

[Major-Shrinkage]

Dont forget, there are systems with relays along the borders of the Universe. Like were tali's loyalty mission is. Im pretty sure they have plenty of ways to get there.                                          Universe

Modifié par Major-Shrinkage, 07 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[LaughingDragon]

Im pretty sure all of mass effect takes place in the milky way galaxy - which is one galaxy out of over 100 billion or so galaxies - a very small portion of the entire Universe.

The universe is so vast, that scientists estimate to cross just the visible portion of the universe would take over 15 billion years of sustained travel at light speed.

Modifié par LaughingDragon, 07 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[MasonK]

Major-Shrinkage wrote...

Dont forget, there are systems with relays along the borders of the galaxy. Like were tali's loyalty mission is. Im pretty sure they have plenty of ways to get there.                                          Universe

It's clear that the Citadel relay leads directly to the Reapers in Dark Space.  If there is another way for them to get to galaxy, it hasn't been mentioned.

Since most of the council and the rest of the galaxy believe the Reapers do not exist, the activation of the Citadel relay would still be a surprise.  An attack on the Citadel, however, may not be.  The Reapers will know this because of the few hidden in the galaxy that awake every so often to "listen" and assess the situation.  

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.   The reapers did not get all of the Protheans, which as you stated, should have been obvious to them that they would not get them all based on statistics alone.  They ignored the humans and all other current races in ME because they were not sufficiently advanced.  

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that the data from the citadel is not a necessity to accomplishing their cycle, at least as far as they are concerned.

I would thoroughly disagree with that.  Shipping manifests, communication points, logs, technology, culture, etcetera - I think that all of those things are essential to the Reapers' plans.  The Citadel may have the capability of shutting down mobility, but how to deal with and where to deal with individual outposts and planets can be better assessed with intelligence.  What better intelligence could there be than the intelligence gained in the enemy's seat of power?

And I disagree that they are at the mercy of the citadel databanks to perform the cycle.  Despite the fact that they are somewhere beyond the galaxy, they have lots (seemingly) of agents working in the galaxy that can easily suit the intelligence needs.

Would having the data be 'convenient'?  Sure.  Is it essential for the attack? No. 

The citadels use as a mobility crippler is exponentially more important than the data it contains.

[ajax-wounds]

you guys forgetting all the talk throughout the game about the rising intrest in dark energy ? or the fact that the was the whole sublo aboutthe quarian sun and dark energy converting it ? or somthing like that?



drak energy remember from the books its basicly (mass effect) the reapers technology that they left for us. i think there trying to create a new gateway.



also despite seeing the reaper fleet we never saw the citadels counterpart near them. the citadel relay that links from darkspace to our citadel

[The Capital Gaultier]

wbaron wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

wbaron wrote...

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.   The reapers did not get all of the Protheans, which as you stated, should have been obvious to them that they would not get them all based on statistics alone.  They ignored the humans and all other current races in ME because they were not sufficiently advanced.  

All of that has nothing to do with the fact that the data from the citadel is not a necessity to accomplishing their cycle, at least as far as they are concerned.

I would thoroughly disagree with that.  Shipping manifests, communication points, logs, technology, culture, etcetera - I think that all of those things are essential to the Reapers' plans.  The Citadel may have the capability of shutting down mobility, but how to deal with and where to deal with individual outposts and planets can be better assessed with intelligence.  What better intelligence could there be than the intelligence gained in the enemy's seat of power?

And I disagree that they are at the mercy of the citadel databanks to perform the cycle.  Despite the fact that they are somewhere beyond the galaxy, they have lots (seemingly) of agents working in the galaxy that can easily suit the intelligence needs.

Would having the data be 'convenient'?  Sure.  Is it essential for the attack? No. 

The citadels use as a mobility crippler is exponentially more important than the data it contains.

I think I've implied something I did not intend to.  I do not think they would be at the mercy of the Citadel's data banks to complete the cycle.  However, I do believe that without the Citadel's data banks, they would put themselves in a more vulnerable position than needs be.  The chances of overlooking small, relatively new or unknown outposts would increase and the future of the Reapers would be less certain (perhaps by a miniscule factor, but still less certainty).  I'm not saying that this data is the hinge - merely that is is an important part of the plan.

[wbaron]

ajax-wounds wrote...

you guys forgetting all the talk throughout the game about the rising intrest in dark energy ? or the fact that the was the whole sublo aboutthe quarian sun and dark energy converting it ? or somthing like that?

drak energy remember from the books its basicly (mass effect) the reapers technology that they left for us. i think there trying to create a new gateway.

also despite seeing the reaper fleet we never saw the citadels counterpart near them. the citadel relay that links from darkspace to our citadel

I'm not forgetting about it.... In fact, I think finding another way into the galaxy (and having shepherd find and stop it) is the most logical direction the plot can take.  Just don't know how much 'finality' there will be.

[Collider]

The galaxy is enormous. Even going the speed of light, it still takes ages to get to different places. The OP is right that it doesn't seem to be completely explained. I am guessing that the Reapers are on their way but not quite there yet. Well, that's what the end cinematic of ME2 showed anyways. I'm guessing the time Sovereign had control of the Citadel allowed for some Reapers to activate or start heading towards the Milky Way. As for fuel...it's science fiction, you could just say the Reapers are using dark energy or something.



Or it may be that the Reapers need to send someone else to reactivate the Citadel again so the Reapers can come through.

[wbaron]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I think I've implied something I did not intend to.  I do not think they would be at the mercy of the Citadel's data banks to complete the cycle.  However, I do believe that without the Citadel's data banks, they would put themselves in a more vulnerable position than needs be.  The chances of overlooking small, relatively new or unknown outposts would increase and the future of the Reapers would be less certain (perhaps by a miniscule factor, but still less certainty).  I'm not saying that this data is the hinge - merely that is is an important part of the plan.

That may be.  And I think attacking the citadel initially without crushingly overwhelming force was putting them in a more vulnerable position than needs be, but they did it anyway.

With agents like the geth in the galaxy, it's hard to believe that all but the most secret of outposts/bases would be overlooked, and again, as you mentioned,they will statistically miss something.

The 'plan' is already filled with a million holes, so why not a few more?  The Reapers are already assuming that the data from the citadel will contain absolutely everything about every species (in order for this to be important).   Can't get much less certain than that, can you?

[MasonK]

The worm hole idea is interesting, but it goes against Reaper strategy. There is no strategic advantage of that star location, other than it is beyond the veil that the citadel/council/etc. cannot see past. It would hide their numbers going in; but once out the galaxy is aware. Their entire strategy is to enter via the Citadel(the HUB of the galaxy) and chop off civilization's head. If they come through another way, they are taking chances of being destroyed by overwhelming numbers.

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 07:26 .

[wbaron]

Collider wrote...

The galaxy is enormous. Even going the speed of light, it still takes ages to get to different places. The OP is right that it doesn't seem to be completely explained. I am guessing that the Reapers are on their way but not quite there yet. Well, that's what the end cinematic of ME2 showed anyways. I'm guessing the time Sovereign had control of the Citadel allowed for some Reapers to activate or start heading towards the Milky Way. As for fuel...it's science fiction, you could just say the Reapers are using dark energy or something.

Or it may be that the Reapers need to send someone else to reactivate the Citadel again so the Reapers can come through.

They travel faster than the speed of light.  In fact, someone posted earlier that there was reference to FTL drives being able to push 12 light years in one day.

Going for the citadel again, while possible logical, would make for a fairly boring part 3.

[CreepingGeth]

wbaron wrote...

Going for the citadel again, while possible logical, would make for a fairly boring part 3.

Yeah, it would be pretty redundant.

Modifié par CreepingGeth, 07 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[MasonK]

CreepingGeth wrote...

This certainly is a monstrous plot hole... and if they go for the Citadel again, it becomes redundant.

It will be very interesting to see how their escaping from Dark Space in Shepard's lifetime is explained.

What?

[DuffyMJ]

MasonK wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...
I'm not convinced that humans were ignored by the Reapers.  My own feelings are that some one or thing purposely froze the Charon relay in ice (the Protheans had cryo tech as seen on Ilos) in order to protect us from the Reapers or shelter us from the galactic cycle.  Protheans clearly were aware of us and studied us, and the artiacts on Mars apparently included ships, Eezo, functioning tech. etc, which means it was likely overlooked by the Reapers.  My theory is that the science team that went through the conduit managed to reach Earth and were likely the ones who observed humans in the little story bit we get from the Consort's trinket about early humans.

More likely, the Protheans observed and tested humans before the cycle.  Keep in mind that the Conduit was experimental, and a one way trip.  If they could leave the Citadel, surely they would have made their way back to Ilos.  This was a small group of Prothean scientists after all.  Vigils admits they most likely died on the Citadel.   

He only speculates, he doesn't know.  Also, there is significance behind the fact that Prothean observation of humanity occurred 50,000 years ago (the approximate time art, language, and culture emerged).  This means they observed us after, during, or immediately before the Reapers purged.  If they were active this "recently" in our solar system, what explains the Charon relay being disguised as a frozen moon or the active Prothean tech on Mars?

[wbaron]

MasonK wrote...

The worm hole idea is interesting, but it goes against Reaper strategy. There is no strategic advantage of that star location, other than it is beyond the veil that the citadel/council/etc. cannot see past. It would hide their numbers going in; but once out the galaxy is aware. Their entire strategy is to enter via the Citadel(the HUB of the galaxy) and chop off civilization's head. If they come through another way, they are taking chances of being destroyed by overwhelming numbers.

That star could just be used for testing, not for the actual entry point.  Which actually is reinforced by the fact that it's beyond the veil.

Maybe my interpretation of their numbers and strength is off, but I get the distinct impression that the entire galactic fleet would not stand a chance against a massed Reaper assault.

[MasonK]

wbaron wrote...
Going for the citadel again, while possible logical, would make for a fairly boring part 3.

Maybe, it just depends on the idea.  Knowing what the Citadel is, but not being sure how they plan to accomplish their task could make for an intriguing ending.  Better than anything given by ME2.   

[wbaron]

MasonK wrote...

wbaron wrote...
Going for the citadel again, while possible logical, would make for a fairly boring part 3.

Maybe, it just depends on the idea.  Knowing what the Citadel is, but not being sure how they plan to accomplish their task could make for an intriguing ending.  Better than anything given by ME2.   

Agreed on that.  Just a hunch I guess.  I figure Bioware will try to do something a little less unexpected.

[MasonK]

wbaron wrote...
Maybe my interpretation of their numbers and strength is off, but I get the distinct impression that the entire galactic fleet would not stand a chance against a massed Reaper assault.

If their numbers were so great, the Reaper placement of the relays and the Citadel would not matter.  Neither would their shutting down their relays, and systematically annihilating life.  They built the Citadel and relays remember.  They have it all planned out even before the Protheans.  Their power/intelligence keeps the cycle going.  Not their numbers.  There is no indication of their fleet size, and I believe their strategy indicates smaller than we think.        

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 07:40 .