357 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantevilhead]

The Reapers have a mass relay in dark space. They could just drag it with them until it's within range of a relay inside the galaxy.

[GnusmasTHX]

Snowraptor wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Oh, this thread again.

Someone answer me this: if they could get here in a reasonable time frame using FTL, why would Sovereign risk exposing their plan by repeatedly orchestrating attacks on the Citadel for the last 2000 years?

2000 years? What?

Also the same reason people  drive to destinations instead of walk. Also in this case, your destination has some strategic value as a hub for all Relays and the seat of galactic government.

you mustve forgoton that the rachi wars was caused by the reapers, indoctinated rachni

Not necessarily.

First of all, it was still the Citadel races that opened that relay. There's no indication that the end product of tampering with the rachni was to have them assault the Citadel. More so, the rachni's messenger was still ambiguous as to whether or not it was the Reapers, or the Collector's. In her message she seems to suggest that she knows Shepard is going after the Collector's, as he is going after them directly, and at that point only going after the Reapers indirectly. There's a big difference. 

We have no way of knowing if they were indoctrinated, either. Or if they just had a hostile attitude toward any intrusive force. The most obvious thing to consider is that the Collector's abducted rachni specimens, maybe even a queen, and that's why the rachni were hostile when the Citadel races opened the relay on their end. The Collector's abduct races on a whim, but usually through proxy, and not most of them are for end-game reasons, as far as we know. They've abducted handfuls of every race and were never to be seen or heard from again in any capacity. However since there are no races aware of the rachni, they'd have to do it themselves, revealing their nature and hostility to the rachni.

There's also a big difference between Collector's acting on pre-established agendas, ie. Test every race for Reaper viability, than actually having Sovereign wake up 2000 years prior to the game and doing god knows what for so long.

I'm inclined to believe the Collector's were just being Collector's way back then, rather than Sovereign being behind an alleged 'attack' on the Citadel. Because it is nowhere near his MO and it never resembled an attack in the first place. 

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 07 février 2010 - 08:08 .

[MasonK]

sbear3737 wrote...
To make some real contributions, reaffirming what some people have already said, it seems logical that they would try to take the Citadel first if it is in fact a control mechanism for all mass relays in the universe. And as people pointed out, the only way to do this would be to directly assault the Citadel but this cannot be accomplished successfully unless it was a covert operation. Therefore, no massive invasion of the reaper-kind. But if Reaper technology is so advanced (and it is), would it not be easier to send in humanoid/alienoid entities to infiltrate the citadel from the inside rather than hump the control tower of the Citadel with a giant Reaper (did anyone else get that image when watching that ME1 cutscene...). Granted, Saren was technically an infiltrator... it feels like there could have been a lot more sneaky and efficient methods for accessing the Citadel though.

Meh. Just spewing out random thoughts...

There was a more sneaky way.  Sovereign was supposed to send a signal to the Keepers to activate the relay.  But because of the Protheans, this was no longer possible.  When Sovereign awoke, and realized that the signal failed, he had to improvise. 

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

MasonK wrote...

It was trying to give you a sense of peril that was not there in the entire plot of ME2. 

lol, then I'm even MORE irritated.  Might as well have said "Oh, by the way, the reapers are still out there... I know you didn't really get to see them in this game... maybe next time!"

The same criticism made of any second book or film in any trilogy in history.

[MasonK]

AlloutAce wrote...

Well so far, Mass effect's plot has been centered around preventing the reapers from entering galactic space. Lets face it, a fight against thousands of reapers is astronomically hopeless... Victory lies in prevention. If 1 wiped out the entire citadel fleet, it would take hundreds of thousands, or possibly millions of ships too stop them. If the reapers find a way to get here, the war will already be over, thats not too say, over the next hundred million years they could arrive via normal FTL travel, but from the ending cinematic it looked like they were aways out.  Harbinger maybe the biggest kid on the block atm, but he's also a couple of hundred million light years away. If they have another plan too get into the galaxy, which seems likely, then shephard better get busy.

Because of the ending cutscene with Reapers visible in Dark Space you believe Harbinger is one of the Reapers shown?  I do not think so.  If this was the case, then ME1 makes no sense.  If they could indoctrinate and control other races from Dark Space where they are supposed to be "hybernating", there would be no need for them to come to the galaxy.  Harbinger is most likely another Reaper left behind in hiding just like Sovereign. 

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 08:14 .

[GnusmasTHX]

MasonK wrote...

AlloutAce wrote...

Well so far, Mass effect's plot has been centered around preventing the reapers from entering galactic space. Lets face it, a fight against thousands of reapers is astronomically hopeless... Victory lies in prevention. If 1 wiped out the entire citadel fleet, it would take hundreds of thousands, or possibly millions of ships too stop them. If the reapers find a way to get here, the war will already be over, thats not too say, over the next hundred million years they could arrive via normal FTL travel, but from the ending cinematic it looked like they were aways out.  Harbinger maybe the biggest kid on the block atm, but he's also a couple of hundred million light years away. If they have another plan too get into the galaxy, which seems likely, then shephard better get busy.

Because of the ending cutscene with Reapers visible in Dark Space you believe Harbinger is one of the Reapers shown?  I do not think so.  If this was the case, then ME1 makes no sense.  If they could indoctrinate and control other races from Dark Space where they are supposed to be "hybernating", there would be no need for them to come to the galaxy. 

The yellow glow and exact same shape as the talking hologram in the Collector base didn't give it away?

They can't indoctrinate from that far away. The Collector's are DESIGNED to be controlled by Reapers. Indoctrination and controlling a machine are different things. Collector's are almost entirely tech.

Also even if they could indoctrinate from that far away, that still doesn't solve the actual killing and harvesting portion of their existence.

[wbaron]

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

As pointed out, they can move faster than light.  Significantly faster.  

But again, even if I agree that they are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the edge of the galaxy, it begs the question of how they got out there in the first place considering 50,000 years ago they were harvesting the galaxy.

[wbaron]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

MasonK wrote...

It was trying to give you a sense of peril that was not there in the entire plot of ME2. 

lol, then I'm even MORE irritated.  Might as well have said "Oh, by the way, the reapers are still out there... I know you didn't really get to see them in this game... maybe next time!"

The same criticism made of any second book or film in any trilogy in history.

Hmm... maybe.  I definitely didn't feel that way after Empire strikes back.

Modifié par wbaron, 07 février 2010 - 08:16 .

[MasonK]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
The yellow glow and exact same shape as the talking hologram in the Collector base didn't give it away?

They can't indoctrinate from that far away. The Collector's are DESIGNED to be controlled by Reapers. Indoctrination and controlling a machine are different things. Collector's are almost entirely tech.

Also even if they could indoctrinate from that far away, that still doesn't solve the actual killing and harvesting portion of their existence.

No.  Yes, I have considered the Collectors as being designed to be controlled.  But they are Prothean, and clearly organic.  The geth are synthetic, and are immune to indoctrination(rules out the collectors if synthetic).  Only a few followed Sovereign because they believed it to be their god.  

Modifié par MasonK, 07 février 2010 - 08:18 .

[GnusmasTHX]

MasonK wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
The yellow glow and exact same shape as the talking hologram in the Collector base didn't give it away?

They can't indoctrinate from that far away. The Collector's are DESIGNED to be controlled by Reapers. Indoctrination and controlling a machine are different things. Collector's are almost entirely tech.

Also even if they could indoctrinate from that far away, that still doesn't solve the actual killing and harvesting portion of their existence.

No.  Yes, I have considered the Collectors as being designed to be controlled.  But they are Prothean, and clearly organic.  The geth are synthetic, and are immune to indoctrination(rules out the collectors).  Only a few followed Sovereign because they believed it to be their god.  

No. They're tech. They're controlled in the same fashion that Saren was controlled by Sovereign, except Saren's implants are implants, and the Collector's have been modified and designed over thousands of years and a product of which is an 'organic' appearance.

Talk to the Doctor.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 07 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[CreepingGeth]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

MasonK wrote...

AlloutAce wrote...

Well so far, Mass effect's plot has been centered around preventing the reapers from entering galactic space. Lets face it, a fight against thousands of reapers is astronomically hopeless... Victory lies in prevention. If 1 wiped out the entire citadel fleet, it would take hundreds of thousands, or possibly millions of ships too stop them. If the reapers find a way to get here, the war will already be over, thats not too say, over the next hundred million years they could arrive via normal FTL travel, but from the ending cinematic it looked like they were aways out.  Harbinger maybe the biggest kid on the block atm, but he's also a couple of hundred million light years away. If they have another plan too get into the galaxy, which seems likely, then shephard better get busy.

Because of the ending cutscene with Reapers visible in Dark Space you believe Harbinger is one of the Reapers shown?  I do not think so.  If this was the case, then ME1 makes no sense.  If they could indoctrinate and control other races from Dark Space where they are supposed to be "hybernating", there would be no need for them to come to the galaxy. 

The yellow glow and exact same shape as the talking hologram in the Collector base didn't give it away?

They can't indoctrinate from that far away. The Collector's are DESIGNED to be controlled by Reapers. Indoctrination and controlling a machine are different things. Collector's are almost entirely tech.

Also even if they could indoctrinate from that far away, that still doesn't solve the actual killing and harvesting portion of their existence.

Plus, wasn't Joker looking at images of Harbinger just before it cut to Harbinger and the massive fleet?

[Abrazxas]

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

Ah but FTL is faster than light, and without someone from the B ioware team quantifiying that, it's no telling how quickly a ship moves while using FTL.

[supakillaii]

"I'm asking why they didn't just fly into the galaxy in the first place"

Because that would give the species time to unite and fight back. Coming in through the Citadel would isolate the Mass Relay Clusters and destroy the government.



"I didn't ask why they want the Citadel. I asked why Sovereign would attack it on his own when he could have just waited for them to arrive by conventional means and launch a coordinated attack."

Because that would give the species time to evolve to the point that an Old Machine is a piece of fluffy Space Pie.



Also, Nazara didn't defeat the whole Citadel Fleet. If you listen what they say in ME, you'll hear pretty clearly that they've spread the troops out, with only a handful of Ships protecting the Citadel.

[mepilot]

Giantevilhead wrote...

The Reapers have a mass relay in dark space. They could just drag it with them until it's within range of a relay inside the galaxy.

w0rd.  They pull it around in a huge red Radio Flyer...

Modifié par mepilot, 07 février 2010 - 08:22 .

[WoodWizzard87]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Congratulations on completely skirting the question. Again, for like the third or fourth time, I'm not asking why they want the Citadel.

Seat of galactic government, priceless data on races of the galaxy and control over the relay system.

We also know that their is a Mass relay just outside of the Citadel.  So why not make that relay a multi relay and allow it to hook to more than one, say a relay just outside the galaxy in dark space.  They would still catch them off guard at the citadel.  Thats how Sovreign and teh geth got there as well in ME1.

[DuffyMJ]

Remember the glowy orb thing that the Geth were worshipping on Feros? Doesn't it look very similar to the glowy orb thing you destroy in one of the N7 missions that was making husks? Maybe the Reapers can indoctrinate synthetics,in a way, too.

[wbaron]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

MasonK wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...
The yellow glow and exact same shape as the talking hologram in the Collector base didn't give it away?

They can't indoctrinate from that far away. The Collector's are DESIGNED to be controlled by Reapers. Indoctrination and controlling a machine are different things. Collector's are almost entirely tech.

Also even if they could indoctrinate from that far away, that still doesn't solve the actual killing and harvesting portion of their existence.

No.  Yes, I have considered the Collectors as being designed to be controlled.  But they are Prothean, and clearly organic.  The geth are synthetic, and are immune to indoctrination(rules out the collectors).  Only a few followed Sovereign because they believed it to be their god.  

No. They're tech. They're controlled in the same fashion that Saren was controlled by Sovereign, except Saren's implants are implants, and the Collector's have been modified and designed over thousands of years and a product of which is an 'organic' appearance.

Talk to the Doctor.

Think you are both right.  They are protheans who have been genetically and cybernetically altered.

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

As pointed out, they can move faster than light.  Significantly faster.  

But again, even if I agree that they are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the edge of the galaxy, it begs the question of how they got out there in the first place considering 50,000 years ago they were harvesting the galaxy.

I don't think it's much of a question. They are effectively immortal machines. They aren't limited by human lifetimes. Criss-crossing space for hundreds of thousands of years to create the relay network is something almost inconceivable for humans to achieve, but it's not much of a stretch for Reapers.

The problem here is that the extinction event needs to take place not on a cosmological timescale, but a personal one. It needs to happen in Shepard's lifetime.

[wbaron]

Abrazxas wrote...

Ah but FTL is faster than light, and without someone from the B ioware team quantifiying that, it's no telling how quickly a ship moves while using FTL.

Think we already have that answer, it's in this thread a few times, was mentioned as 12 LY/day.

[sbear3737]

They need to come out with a Science of Mass Effect book. nerdgasm complete

[wbaron]

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

As pointed out, they can move faster than light.  Significantly faster.  

But again, even if I agree that they are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the edge of the galaxy, it begs the question of how they got out there in the first place considering 50,000 years ago they were harvesting the galaxy.

I don't think it's much of a question. They are effectively immortal machines. They aren't limited by human lifetimes. Criss-crossing space for hundreds of thousands of years to create the relay network is something almost inconceivable for humans to achieve, but it's not much of a stretch for Reapers.

The problem here is that the extinction event needs to take place not on a cosmological timescale, but a personal one. It needs to happen in Shepard's lifetime.

I think I see where you are going.  So they used the citadel mass relay to get out into dark space, but can't get back that way because they locked their keys in their car, so to speak.

[MasonK]

GnusmasTHX wrote...
No. They're tech. They're controlled in the same fashion that Saren was controlled by Sovereign, except Saren's implants are implants, and the Collector's have been modified and designed over thousands of years and a product of which is an 'organic' appearance.

Talk to the Doctor.

Saren was under indoctrination.  Yes, Saren claims in the end that Sovereign gave him implants to upgrade him AFTER you defeated him on Virmire.  Saren was being indoctrinated and used by Sovereign well before that.  Just like Matriarch Benezia was - she clearly explains it.  The implants are not how the Reaper controlled them.  The collectors are Protheans that are organic, and were - you are right - evolved by the Reapers after they destroyed them.  ME2 claims that the Collectors stayed hidden behind the Omega 4 relay and were hardly ever seen outside of it.  We never knew of the Collectors in ME1.  If they were in ME1, and could be controlled/indoctrinated by Reapers in Dark Space... what is the point of Sovereign.  What is their point period? 

[sbear3737]

wbaron wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

As pointed out, they can move faster than light.  Significantly faster.  

But again, even if I agree that they are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the edge of the galaxy, it begs the question of how they got out there in the first place considering 50,000 years ago they were harvesting the galaxy.

I don't think it's much of a question. They are effectively immortal machines. They aren't limited by human lifetimes. Criss-crossing space for hundreds of thousands of years to create the relay network is something almost inconceivable for humans to achieve, but it's not much of a stretch for Reapers.

The problem here is that the extinction event needs to take place not on a cosmological timescale, but a personal one. It needs to happen in Shepard's lifetime.

I think I see where you are going.  So they used the citadel mass relay to get out into dark space, but can't get back that way because they locked their keys in their car, so to speak.

kind of anti-climatic don't you think.

[marshalleck]

wbaron wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

wbaron wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I still do not feel they are flying in, it was there to show how many of them there where, how devastating they will be if they find a way here.

Traveling at the speed of light it would take around 4 hours to reach the sol mass relay from earth, that is assuming its orbit is currently aligned with earth for the shortest travel.

Moving from one star system to another that are in the same cluster with only one mass relay would take weeks, even months at the speed of light, the game makes you travel to and from these system on a few occasions, much more often if you want to explore for side quests.

If you are far enough outside the galaxy that you can actually see the galaxy as they are in the end would take thousands of years even if moving at speeds which far exceed the speed of light, think that it takes a hundred of thousands of years to cross the galaxy at the speed of light, and if they where even remotly close to the galaxy there would be no distinct shape, just stars in the distance as if staring up at the night sky from earth.

As pointed out, they can move faster than light.  Significantly faster.  

But again, even if I agree that they are hundreds of thousands of light years away from the edge of the galaxy, it begs the question of how they got out there in the first place considering 50,000 years ago they were harvesting the galaxy.

I don't think it's much of a question. They are effectively immortal machines. They aren't limited by human lifetimes. Criss-crossing space for hundreds of thousands of years to create the relay network is something almost inconceivable for humans to achieve, but it's not much of a stretch for Reapers.

The problem here is that the extinction event needs to take place not on a cosmological timescale, but a personal one. It needs to happen in Shepard's lifetime.

I think I see where you are going.  So they used the citadel mass relay to get out into dark space, but can't get back that way because they locked their keys in their car, so to speak.

Sort of.

If we assume that they are at least as far away from the Milky Way galaxy as the galaxy is wide, since the entirety of the galaxy is in view from their location, then they are 100,000 LY out. Traveling at 12 LY per day, they still wouldn't get here until Shepard is in his/her mid 50s.

Okay, so "a wizard did it" and they can get here in 2 years.

Well, if that's the case, why do they need to open the Citadel relay? It unhinges the plot of the first game by relegating the Citadel to merely a high value tactical target rather than being central to the logistics of a full-scale galactic invasion.

[MasonK]

marshalleck wrote...
Well, if that's the case, why do they need to open the Citadel relay? It unhinges the plot of the first game by relegating the Citadel to merely a high value tactical target rather than being central to the logistics of a full-scale galactic invasion.

Yes.