134 réponses à ce sujet

[Sibbwolf]

lukandroll wrote...
Yeah, they can travel at the speed of light but they can't cool off a simple piece of metal... yeah , who the hell you think you are, the only one who need to STFU here is you

An alternative would be to have a large/fast spinning fan in the side of the weapon to throw gas/liquid over the metal heatsink, much like we use today.

Of course, this would then have the major problem in environments where the atmosphere is thin, or non-existant.

Since only a portion of heat will be given off as radiation, conduction/convection mechanisms are a must. ME1 falls down as the cooling seems to be 100% radiation and ignoring the laws of physics. ME2 fixed it by having sacrificial material (thermal clips) into which heat is conducted.

Sure, it's not perfect. The thermal clips would themselves cool down, so unless its a material that conducts well but degrades as it's used, they should be recyclable.

I am one of those that got a little bored in ME1, knowing that I only needed a pistol for CQB, and the sniper rifle. I loved that ME2 made me use not only the heavy pistol and rifle, but an SMG and a "heavy weapon".

[Lord Shadowsong]

I like the thermal clips personally. I just kinda wish they wernt all interchangeable. Why are you guys complaining about them though? Its not like its hard to find the clips, they are all over the freaken place, I havent run out of ammo spraying randomly with the 2nd smg, or using the Heavy Pistol that only carrys 20 shots.

[Ravenshrike]

Jalem001 wrote...

Thermal clips add to the combat. No.

Thermal clips would add to the combat, if you only had a single ammo pool between all your guns. Instead, supposedly interchangable clips aren't.

[lukandroll]

Sibbwolf wrote...

lukandroll wrote...
Yeah, they can travel at the speed of light but they can't cool off a simple piece of metal... yeah , who the hell you think you are, the only one who need to STFU here is you

An alternative would be to have a large/fast spinning fan in the side of the weapon to throw gas/liquid over the metal heatsink, much like we use today.

Of course, this would then have the major problem in environments where the atmosphere is thin, or non-existant.

Since only a portion of heat will be given off as radiation, conduction/convection mechanisms are a must. ME1 falls down as the cooling seems to be 100% radiation and ignoring the laws of physics. ME2 fixed it by having sacrificial material (thermal clips) into which heat is conducted.

Sure, it's not perfect. The thermal clips would themselves cool down, so unless its a material that conducts well but degrades as it's used, they should be recyclable.

I am one of those that got a little bored in ME1, knowing that I only needed a pistol for CQB, and the sniper rifle. I loved that ME2 made me use not only the heavy pistol and rifle, but an SMG and a "heavy weapon".

Actually there is a ammo mod around , that makes the thermal clips to cool off like in ME1, you still can use it like a "Clip" but if you wait the clip actually cool down and you can still use the same cli.... It seems to me that BioWare was experimenting with both mechanics

[Booban]

The over heating weapons in ME1 were rather unique and innovative. First time I played ME I thought, well, wtf is this?! But it is fun to play a new game that plays in a new way. It was fun learning a new way to fight, and the new way wasn't bad. Why is ME2 just trying to be like other games.

It is also very strange they got rid of all our loot (I don't mind that) but then make us run around picking up ammo clips like a beggar.

I read something about frictionless materials and sniping Armatures. That sounds like a frictionless materials and Armature problem (The Armature we got here ducked and repaired itself). My latest sniper rifle the only limit is the ammo, but otherwise there's no paus between shots, I can snipe like crazy. Its like a semi automatic rifle. There are always balance problems in games. The entire system shouldn't be damned when you can just tweak things.

Thermal clips add nothing tactically since they are abundant. I switch weapons according to tactical necessity, as it _should_ be. Sometimes I ran out of ammo because I didn't conserve it, but that was because I was busy shooting back! When I did had to run to get ammo, guess what happened...I got stuck on something while running and died.

Yeah, ok, so I didn't use my pistol in ME1. But what does that have to do with ammo clips and overheating? I think in most games pistols are backup weapons, they are not often used. If they want us to use different weapons just adjust the maps, AI and weapons so they are tactically viable. Not force it because we ran out of ammo...

Overheating weapons were great. I had to conserve my shots, I couldn't spray and pray because then they would over heat, duh. The time I spent to add mods to my weapons was well spent, unlike running around picking up ammo clips.

Modifié par Booban, 07 février 2010 - 09:51 .

[Tasker]

finnithe wrote...

One of the problems with ME1's guns were Frictionless Material. With that, you could fire indefinitely. A lot of you might call this "fun", but IT DOES NOT MAKE FOR A GOOD GAME. It is not challenging at all. This was compounded by the infinite ammo you had in that game. I remember playing my Infiltrator, and taking out Armatures, Primes and Colossi with my rifle. Mind you, these are tanks, they are not supposed to be killed by my sniper rifle. In short, ME1's system could be described as "fun", depending on your taste, but the game was filled with gamebreaking items, weapons, abilities and mechanics. The thermal clips fix this, forcing you to switch weapons, and keeping you from staying in cover for too long.

If Frictionless Material was what caused the problem then why not just remove Frictionless Material?

Surely that would have been easier than adding an "ammo" system.

[medlish]

I don't care about the explaination but it was a good thing they added them. Makes you switch and focus on more weapons. Also, I love reading people's posts whining about them.

[Sibbwolf]

Booban wrote...

 I switch weapons according to tactical necessity, as it _should_ be.

That's the real gameplay issue. The problem was in ME1, get the frictionless materials mod, stick it into the pistol or assault rifle, and there's no longer a need to worry about overheating - making the other CQB weapons entirely unneeded.

ME2 has hard hitting "heavy" pistols, fast firing SMGs etc.. which all have different uses. The thermal clips add to that by forcing the player to consider the best weapon for the situation - no longer can the player use the most inappropiate weapon and still be assured of victory. Using the wrong weapon results in running out of ammo and being forced to leave cover early.

Overheating weapons were great. I had to conserve my shots, I couldn't spray and pray because then they would over heat, duh. The time I spent to add mods to my weapons was well spent, unlike running around picking up ammo clips.

Which means nothing's really changed, provided the player uses the right weapon. Sure, the modding has been replaced with variants of each type of weapon, and thermal clips have been added to replace "cooling".

[Booban]

No, nothings really changed, except I have to run around picking up 'loot' (ammo).



And the frictionless mod, it was a trade off. Put it on, you couldn't put on something else. Its a balance issue, it would've been easy enough to tweak it or just remove it. They didn't have to remove an innovative combat system just for that.

[Tom Adama]

The codex made perfect sense (very, very well done Bioware), but the gameplay mechanic was poor for one reason; passive cooling was removed. If they include BOTH in Me3, I will be very,very happy.



Create a hybrid system. That solves everything!

[Killian Kalthorne]

Thermal clips makes no sense in the technology that was shown in ME1. It is a step backwards in the setting technological advancement and inconsistent to the setting and story. I hate inconsistencies.

[Jackal904]

The thermal clips are way better than the overheating **** from ME1.

[Tom Adama]

Killian Kalthorne wrote...

Thermal clips makes no sense in the technology that was shown in ME1. It is a step backwards in the setting technological advancement and inconsistent to the setting and story. I hate inconsistencies.

No, it actually made more sense. Geth calculated the time it woud take to bring down kinetic barriers using conventional passive cooling, guns had to be slowly fired to prevent overheating which meant more time between volleys. Geth abandoned passive cooling in favor of expendable thermal clips to speed up volley fire. So in one burst in a very short time, weapons could shred through kinetic barriers without overheating. The more rounds per second without overheating made battles tip in the Geths favor.

Think of it. Weapons in ME1 had to be burst fired or they overheated and you had to wait for a cooldown. This gave your enemies kinetic barriers more time to recharge and they could absorb more damage because of the gaps in time the person was exposed to weapon fire. 

In ME2, you could fire 50 rounds straight without overheating. Kinetic barriers were eaten through faster in ME2 because more rounds were available to the user. You could chew through the barriers without worry of overheating which made kinetic barriers much less effective.

What I didnt like in ME2 was that it rendered the ammo block useless, as instead of having thousands of rounds available, you could only fire as many rounds as you had thermal clips.

Hybrid the passive cooling in ME1 with the thermal clips in ME2 and the game would be perfect.

[dragonic9100]

i would have liked something like guns overheat at the rate of the spectre AR with sledgehammer rounds but you have thermal clips you could just eject anyway to go right back to shooting. then if you ran out of clips the cooldown would take like 30 seconds

[Booban]

Why hybrid it? You will just always use thermal clips and your gun would never over heat anyways so it would be an unused feature.



Why is being able to fire so many rounds straight a good thing? That seems all I ever did. Use adrenalin and empty and Harbinger is pretty much dead, with a little heavy warp from Miranda.



Because you can fire so much, fights are more intense, but also more chaotic and too fast. I don't enjoy it much.



In ME1 I could put Garrus behind and his sniper rifle would take down a geth force field barrier so I can open up and shoot the geth behind it. Was great team work. All I do now is empty clips. People say we shouldnt spray and pray...erm, thats pretty much what I am doing.

[NeroSparda]

Tom Adama wrote...
No, it actually made more sense. Geth calculated the time it woud take to bring down kinetic barriers using conventional passive cooling, guns had to be slowly fired to prevent overheating which meant more time between volleys. Geth abandoned passive cooling in favor of expendable thermal clips to speed up volley fire. So in one burst in a very short time, weapons could shred through kinetic barriers without overheating. The more rounds per second without overheating made battles tip in the Geths favor.

Think of it. Weapons in ME1 had to be burst fired or they overheated and you had to wait for a cooldown. This gave your enemies kinetic barriers more time to recharge and they could absorb more damage because of the gaps in time the person was exposed to weapon fire. 

In ME2, you could fire 50 rounds straight without overheating. Kinetic barriers were eaten through faster in ME2 because more rounds were available to the user. You could chew through the barriers without worry of overheating which made kinetic barriers much less effective.

What I didnt like in ME2 was that it rendered the ammo block useless, as instead of having thousands of rounds available, you could only fire as many rounds as you had thermal clips.

Hybrid the passive cooling in ME1 with the thermal clips in ME2 and the game would be perfect.

Agreed, well mostly. I just wished that they found a way to make it so that the geth had found a way to cool the weapon constantly from the inside. (Considering how advance they are supposed to be.) Then again, it will be more work to try to make it work.

 I just think that Shepard got the short end of the stick, as the rest of the squad grabbed all the weapons that doesn't actually need thermal clips (considering that they didn't seem to run out of 'ammo') while Shepard got the left over ones. For me, I hardly find any thermal clips on the area, even though I hardly run out of ammo for the Submachine gun or Assault Rifle. Thanks to the convenient weapon armory and power cells in the area.  Either way, I just wished that your squad mates could toss you a few spare clips if you actually run out, or that you can do the same for them if they actually could, as they should with this system.

[Lord Shadowsong]

Sibbwolf wrote...

Booban wrote...

 I switch weapons according to tactical necessity, as it _should_ be.

That's the real gameplay issue. The problem was in ME1, get the frictionless materials mod, stick it into the pistol or assault rifle, and there's no longer a need to worry about overheating - making the other CQB weapons entirely unneeded.

ME2 has hard hitting "heavy" pistols, fast firing SMGs etc.. which all have different uses. The thermal clips add to that by forcing the player to consider the best weapon for the situation - no longer can the player use the most inappropiate weapon and still be assured of victory. Using the wrong weapon results in running out of ammo and being forced to leave cover early.

Overheating weapons were great. I had to conserve my shots, I couldn't spray and pray because then they would over heat, duh. The time I spent to add mods to my weapons was well spent, unlike running around picking up ammo clips.

Which means nothing's really changed, provided the player uses the right weapon. Sure, the modding has been replaced with variants of each type of weapon, and thermal clips have been added to replace "cooling".

I hated the original over heat thing, I could build my pistol so that just holding the button down I never over heated. It happened alot actually.

[Killian Kalthorne]

You hit it on the head, NeroSparda. The party did not have to worry about thermal clips but Shepherd does? How the hell is that consistent. If you are going to put in a game mechanic then put it in for all characters, and not just the PC. Consistency is paramount.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Damn double posting.

Modifié par Killian Kalthorne, 08 février 2010 - 12:38 .

[Stoko981]

Jalem001 wrote...

Silvermistshadow wrote...

Not really. At least I would've enjoyed it if they'd let us let them cool off instead of forcing us to eject them. At this point, we were better off with the old system.

It really doesn't make any sense to shoot your weapon until its about to explode. 

It also makes no sense for a galaxy full of people who all have infinite ammo weapons to suddenly tether themselves to a consumable such as thermal clips. Oh, you've run out? Well, your gun still has infinite ammo, but with no thermal clip, you can't fire... Oh well, use your powers until you find more clips.

I'm sure that argument would go over great when introducing the new weapons scheme to entire armies.

[tetracycloide]

Scarcity not a problem. Many have pointed out thermal clips quite prevalent. Searching is the problem. Return to auto-looting would be welcome. Arbitrary limits continue to force 'choices.' Less tedium.

[Stoko981]

tetracycloide wrote...

Scarcity not a problem. Many have pointed out thermal clips quite prevalent. Searching is the problem. Return to auto-looting would be welcome. Arbitrary limits continue to force 'choices.' Less tedium.

The clips might be quite prevalent, it's how many bullets you need to take down the hoard in front of you. My first runthrough, yeah, I never had any ammo concerns at all (which made me wonder why they'd bothered, since there was always more than enough ammo around, it might as well have been infinite).

But on Insanity? There've been a couple of times where it's gotten pretty close. Sniper rifle? Yeah, that's empty. Assault rifle? Done.  That leaves my pistol and my shotgun, with both squadmates dead, and four Collectors in cover across the way. Yay. Lots of shiny thermal clips all around them, sure, but clearly I'm not getting anywhere close to them until those enemies are a lot deader.

And how is it even the almighty Collectors drop industry-standard thermal clips? That's just silly.

[Zaisha_temp]

The frictionless material mod made the overheat system redundant in most circumstances after obtaining said mods. So Bioware had a choice:



1. do nothing and let the infinite weapon spray make a mockery of the difficulty.

2. massively revamp the entire system, with a forced in-universe justification.

3. remove the frictionless materials mod



They chose option 2. The system was revamped to the same system that dominates the hugely profitable generic shooter market and is preferred by most the vast (and profitable) target group of said shooters. I'm sure this was a complete coincidence.

[Handsome Hank]

I know that I'm only speaking from personal experience here but of the dozen or so people I have talked to about it (irl) none of them liked thermal clips. Only one of them said that she didn't mind. I'm not being accusatory, but you people on this forum are the only ones that I have encountered that prefer it. But then, I am not a bioware forum junkie or anything so I might have missed something.



Personally, I really enjoyed the fact that you didn't have to have clips in the first one and don't see what it really adds to the game to run out of sniper rifle ammo in the middle of every firefight. If I could combine the cover system with the lack of ammo from the first game, that would be exceptional.



And good on you whoever it was that mentioned that barriers shouldn't be able to protect from decompression and radiation. I really had to roll my eyes at that.