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Let's get rid of thermal clips.. Codex Entry style


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#101
WillieStyle

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tetracycloide wrote...

finnithe wrote...

The thermal clips fix this, forcing you to switch weapons, and keeping you from staying in cover for too long.


Negative.  New damage system does this.  If clip capacity infinite superior weapon choices remain.  Protection counters paramount.

Clip capacity forces power usage.  A moderate positive.  Forces ammo hunting.  A massive negative.

I hate to argue with you, since you have the whole Mordin diction down but:

1) Finite ammo does encourage weapon swapping.  If I didn't have finite ammo, I wouldn't swap to my heavy pistol to finish of a half-health mob in order to conserve Sniper Rifle ammo.

2) Searching for ammo is a positive in my opinion.  It encourages advancing on the enemy - as they tend to drop clips where they stand.  It also occasionally has me contelmplating wether I want to run out into the open to grab those ammo clips or switch to a weaker weapon and stay behind cover.

3) Finite ammo makes misses more costly - especially with the sniper rifle.  This increases the challenge and the fun for me.

#102
nicodeemus327

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The ammo / reload system has proven the test of time for shooter games. It's obvious that Bioware would use that system considering you do an awful lot of shooting in this game.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 07:45 .


#103
nicodeemus327

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WillieStyle wrote...

I hate to argue with you, since you have the whole Mordin diction down but:

1) Finite ammo does encourage weapon swapping.  If I didn't have finite ammo, I wouldn't swap to my heavy pistol to finish of a half-health mob in order to conserve Sniper Rifle ammo.

2) Searching for ammo is a positive in my opinion.  It encourages advancing on the enemy - as they tend to drop clips where they stand.  It also occasionally has me contelmplating wether I want to run out into the open to grab those ammo clips or switch to a weaker weapon and stay behind cover.

3) Finite ammo makes misses more costly - especially with the sniper rifle.  This increases the challenge and the fun for me.


Solid points.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 07:47 .


#104
KadeMisae

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RighteousRage wrote...

I would have honestly preferred if the combat was just 100% like Gears of War, because at least then my teammates would behave semi-rationally (yes I know, the AI in GoW was still retarded), I'd be able to blind fire, jump between cover, crouch, shoot more accurately, take less than 10 minutes to switch weapons, not have to fiddle with ammo types for their elemental rock paper scissors, have worthwhile melee, have grenades (again), have a reason to blitz, have turrets and occasionally varying combat rather than coming upon some crates and enemies coming out of a door at you, etc. etc.

The ammo was a minimal concession that changed gameplay negligibly, in my opinion. I hardly even ran out, and hardly run out on insanity, either, unless it's an infinite enemy room.

Also someone please tell me how it makes sense lore-wise or gameplay wise for there to be a "cool-down" on changing ammo types, and how this would even theoretically work. "Phew man, pressing that button on my gun to magically infuse it with elemental powers was exhausting, I gotta take a breather"


To be specific, each ammo type isn't a "button press" so much as switching to a different block of material, the reason weapons have infinite 'ammo' is because the projectiles fired are paint chips, or grains of sand in size, just propelled to incredible velocities to achieve energy transfer. Shredder rounds are made of a silicon compound that 'shatters' on impact, driving the kinetic energy outward in several directions for superior damage against soft targets. AP rounds have more tungsten in them, causing better penetration because the material is harder, Incendiary ammo is probably a futuristic equivalent of white phosphorus, disruptor ammo fires charged ions, cryo ammo uses cooling lasers to transform the projectile into a bose-einstein condensate, which is within a few thousandths of a degree of absolute zero, warp ammo probably contains small amounts of eezo so that it can create a warp field while in transit via frictional charge.

Switching ammo triggers a cooldown, not because you're tired after doing so, but because it takes a second to THINK about how you do something, Shepard can't just hold down the bumper and freeze time to make a decision, he has to think "Okay, shredder ammo, left front pocket, this is my sniper rifle, left side of the receiver, pull the latch to switch out ammunition, alrighty, there we go." It's a particularly tiny cooldown and I've never noticed it.

Biotics take tremendous amounts of focus to use and properly control, years of training is required to be effective at all, the reason they cool between uses is that you have to actually let your body build up enough electrical charge inside the eezo node for it to function. Tech powers require the fabricator inside your omni-tool to construct a device and then launch it, assumedly it takes time to do so.

I can't really justify why both biotic and tech powers share cooldowns other than to say that it takes focus to perform those actions during combat, shepard has to think about what he's going to do next before he does it. I predict that in ME3, tech and biotic powers will have seperate cool periods.

And whoever said melee was useless never played a sentinel, obviously you can't melee a mob of husks to death, or any large construct (Imir mechs, Praetorians, Thresher Maw, Scions, etc) But even on insanity, my Sentinel regularly beats Krogan to death with his pistol, and once or twice even Harbinger. One trick is that if you storm into an enemy, it does damage even if you dont swing right away, stunning them long enough to get in a few cheap shots. An Infiltrator could get in some free swings via cloak, and I imagine melee is fun during a Soldier's bullet time effect. Vanguards would get some free shots following a charge, and adepts and engineers should never WANT to melee, as they're generally better suited to staying in the back of the room to control the fight.

#105
Thermorium

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The whole thermal clip thing doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, if you are shooting, heat builds up in the clip, if you stop shooting, it doesn't dissipate? i mean, you don't want to make clips which don't exchange heat with the external environment, because it would save you clips if they could

#106
Sibbwolf

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Thermorium, yeah, that particular oversight needs sorting. Or there's a mod somewhere in this thread..

#107
nicodeemus327

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Thermorium wrote...

The whole thermal clip thing doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, if you are shooting, heat builds up in the clip, if you stop shooting, it doesn't dissipate? i mean, you don't want to make clips which don't exchange heat with the external environment, because it would save you clips if they could


It does dissipate but that takes time. A lot more time then just ejecting the clip. That's the whole idea behind it. It's pretty solid and allows BW to use the ammo / reload system that shooters have proven to be a solid mechanic.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 07:59 .


#108
KadeMisae

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Thermorium wrote...

The whole thermal clip thing doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, if you are shooting, heat builds up in the clip, if you stop shooting, it doesn't dissipate? i mean, you don't want to make clips which don't exchange heat with the external environment, because it would save you clips if they could


Actually that's exactly what you want. If the thermal clip exchanged heat readily with the outside environment, heat would leak OUT of the clip and INTO the gun, the whole idea is that all of the gun's heat goes into a tiny package so that when you eject it, all the heat is gone and there's no danger of frying the sensitive electronics inside.

Ideally they're collapsible tubes that have a ton of surface area when expanded, and of a material with an extremely high potential heat so they'd absorb the heat out of their surroundings more readily, but be less likely to dissipate heat outwards.

#109
Willie_on_Wheels

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Thermorium wrote...

The whole thermal clip thing doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, if you are shooting, heat builds up in the clip, if you stop shooting, it doesn't dissipate? i mean, you don't want to make clips which don't exchange heat with the external environment, because it would save you clips if they could


It makes no sense at all. It's a minor retcon that makes for greatly improved gameplay. Deal with it.

#110
Frotality

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RighteousRage wrote...

"After Shepard awoke from his weird dream he realized it was 2183 and weapons didn't require exchangeable clips, just as they didn't before, kinetic barriers didn't protect people against radiation and decompression, people don't actually heal completely from bullet wounds in a matter of seconds, and negotiation ability has nothing to do with past deeds."

They can have the Tick read it off, whatever his name is.


this.
FTW.
QFT.
approving internet memes #4-118
:alien:

EDIT: in all honesty, Bioware can make whatever lore reason they want for gameplay changes. now IMO, thermal clips is another instance of overreaction by bioware. wasting bullets was more or less a non-issue at endgame for ME1, but in ME2 my every sniper shot is a damn treasure, and getting headshots with every one still runs out of ammo 10x facter than spraying AR bullets everywhere, not exactly balanced either. it doesnt encourage swapping weapons, it encourages using the smg 90% of the time cause its the only thing with a reasonable max ammo.

i would much rather they fix the old system to not break with a few high end weapon mods, rather than tacking on a tired and unnecessary shooter mechanic. i love how ME2 can somehow be just as much an RPG without classic RPG elements, yet overused and unfitting shooter elements make it so much better a shooter.

Modifié par Frotality, 08 février 2010 - 08:39 .


#111
nekoNari22

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[quote]Frotality wrote...

[quote]RighteousRage wrote...

EDIT: in all honesty, Bioware can make whatever lore reason they want for gameplay changes. now IMO, thermal clips is another instance of overreaction by bioware. wasting bullets was more or less a non-issue at endgame for ME1, but in ME2 my every sniper shot is a damn treasure, and getting headshots with every one still runs out of ammo 10x facter than spraying AR bullets everywhere, not exactly balanced either. it doesnt encourage swapping weapons, it encourages using the smg 90% of the time cause its the only thing with a reasonable max ammo.

i would much rather they fix the old system to not break with a few high end weapon mods, rather than tacking on a tired and unnecessary shooter mechanic. i love how ME2 can somehow be just as much an RPG without classic RPG elements, yet overused and unfitting shooter elements make it so much better a shooter.

[/quote]

In one of the dev interview, they reasoned the addition of thermal clips with the "fixing the pace" of the game; they didn't like how overheated weapons messed up with the combat flow, making it less exciting and engaging. While this can be very subjective and open to individual preference, I agree with them. Waiting for your weapon to cooldown is simply no fun.

But of course, running around for dropped clips doesn't do any service either. This introduces more downtime than simple wait-and-fire mechanic. When I first heard of these thermal clips, I thought they were talking about simple, but infinite, dissipation of heat build-up in weapons, not ejecting clips altogether, all the while when they're limited in number.

I'm all for the hybrid system with exclusion of thermal clips: let the guns cool down automatically, and also provide a way to dissipate the heat fast by performing some "reload" action. This will break up the action just fine, stop infinite spray of bullet, yet, still maintain the intensity and fast-paced action of each combat.

Or learn from MW2 and introduce vast array of different guns, provide with large cache of ammos, and let us pickup any weapons lying around. That'll do just fine. Image IPB

EDIT: I love the action pacing in this game, just don't like the severe limitation of ammo, especially with hand cannon. That thing feels oh so fun to shoot, but only 24 rounds? C'mon....Image IPB

Modifié par nekoNari22, 08 février 2010 - 10:04 .


#112
nicodeemus327

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nekoNari22 wrote...

In one of the dev interview, they reasoned the addition of thermal clips with the "fixing the pace" of the game; they didn't like how overheated weapons messed up with the combat flow, making it less exciting and engaging. While this can be very subjective and open to individual preference, I agree with them. Waiting for your weapon to cooldown is simply no fun.

But of course, running around for dropped clips doesn't do any service either. This introduces more downtime than simple wait-and-fire mechanic. When I first heard of these thermal clips, I thought they were talking about simple, but infinite, dissipation of heat build-up in weapons, not ejecting clips altogether, all the while when they're limited in number.

I'm all for the hybrid system with exclusion of thermal clips: let the guns cool down automatically, and also provide a way to dissipate the heat fast by performing some "reload" action. This will break up the action just fine, stop infinite spray of bullet, yet, still maintain the intensity and fast-paced action of each combat.

Or learn from MW2 and introduce vast array of different guns, provide with large cache of ammos, and let us pickup any weapons lying around. That'll do just fine. Image IPB


So basically the current system with infinite ammo? Is having to pick up ammo that big of a deal? I haven't played insanity yet but it wasn't even close to a problem on hardcore.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 10:04 .


#113
nekoNari22

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

So basically the current system with infinite ammo? Is having to pick up ammo that big of a deal? I haven't played insanity yet but it wasn't even close to a problem on hardcore.


I had to until I got Revenant Assault Rifle. I like spraying bullets. Having to reload adds to the fun factor, but running out of clips... just doesn't add on the positive side. I mean, we're supposed to have thousands of rounds in each gun, yet we can only shoot 300 rounds until you have to look for more clips? Argh...

And I just wanna keep using that Hand Cannon longer!

#114
nicodeemus327

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nekoNari22 wrote...

I had to until I got Revenant Assault Rifle. I like spraying bullets. Having to reload adds to the fun factor, but running out of clips... just doesn't add on the positive side. I mean, we're supposed to have thousands of rounds in each gun, yet we can only shoot 300 rounds until you have to look for more clips? Argh...

And I just wanna keep using that Hand Cannon longer!


I think part of the point to limited ammo is to force the player to switch up weapons. I felt like you had just enough ammo for one engagement if you used the right weapons are certain conditions. If you ran out of ammo you probably could do it differently.

#115
tzeraph1

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The new ammo system DOES (in my opinion) bring a whole new strategical thinking while in combat. For me, it means that combat isnt just combat, its also thinking about conserving ammo, using the right type of ammo and shooting the right kind of targets with the right type of ammo.



On the other hand, I was ok with ME1's ammo system as well. Taste is like the butt, its divided but still uniform, I guess :D

#116
nekoNari22

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nicodeemus327 wrote...

I think part of the point to limited ammo is to force the player to switch up weapons. I felt like you had just enough ammo for one engagement if you used the right weapons are certain conditions. If you ran out of ammo you probably could do it differently.


But they already have forced that with distinct weapon types, each with effective use. It's just that AR were a tad bit too useful in any given situation.

I just don't like forcing players to switch weapons. They should make them switch because of tactical decisions..

#117
Darthain

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I like the clip system, I just don't understand how these 'universal' clips can have one gun run out of ammo, without my other guns being out of ammo too. :D

#118
nicodeemus327

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Darthain wrote...

I like the clip system, I just don't understand how these 'universal' clips can have one gun run out of ammo, without my other guns being out of ammo too. :D


Maybe once you load them into a gun they are stuck there until you eject them?

#119
nicodeemus327

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nekoNari22 wrote...

nicodeemus327 wrote...

I think part of the point to limited ammo is to force the player to switch up weapons. I felt like you had just enough ammo for one engagement if you used the right weapons are certain conditions. If you ran out of ammo you probably could do it differently.


But they already have forced that with distinct weapon types, each with effective use. It's just that AR were a tad bit too useful in any given situation.

I just don't like forcing players to switch weapons. They should make them switch because of tactical decisions..


Ammo count is part of tactical decisions. Do I use a certain weapon now and risk running out of ammo later? The Cain is a great example of this.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 08 février 2010 - 10:39 .


#120
finnithe

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There is no fixing the previous system, even if Bioware removed mods such as Frictionless Materials, the system is still a gamebreaker. If I was given the infinite ammo system during the Colossus fight on Haestrom, I would just take out my sniper and take potshots at it till it died. I wouldn't care if my gun took too long to cool off, or if the Colossus just repaired itself a bit, it would be easier to use my Sniper's infinite ammo ability to fight a war of attrition with it.



Perhaps the best way to fix the system is to restore a percentage of the gun's heat level AFTER the fight is over. This would remove the so-called "tedium" of scrounging for ammo (I really don't see why this is so difficult), while encouraging ammo conservation during a fight. To discourage spamming the same weapon across fights, perhaps there could be decreasing marginal increases on how much heat capacity is regenerated. I haven't really put a lot of thought into this, so please contribute and criticize.

#121
Halfheart

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Loved the ME1 system *new, interesting take on an old mechanic, needed balancing but that's another issue*

ME2 system is boring *ammo is too plentiful (rarely ran out of ammo on insanity and I almost exclusively used Sniper/AR), boring mechanic used in every other FPS, and lame codex explanation are a few  of my many reasons*

Temper_Graniteskul wrote...

In 2185, the Alliance retrofitted all military weapons with a universal thermal clip, adapted from Geth technology and presumed to be an advancement over the standards at the time. However, field testing was performed in areas pre-seeded with cooled clips, skewing results. After the Terminus Incident of 2187 where Alliance troops were lured into a trap by the Geth, taking massive losses, Alliance brass forced a review of the tech that had left their men and women pinned down with no usable weapons due to lack of accessible clips.

Subsequent analysis of Geth troops taken down in other areas revealed that they were adapted to pick up inorganic materials through their 'feet,' allowing them to create new thermal clips to replace filled cartridges. This effectively gave them near-infinite firing ability, an advantage that was not possible with organic troops. Promises that thermal clip tech was an improvement were subsequently traced to suspicious transmissions from the Terminus systems, leading some to believe that they were planted by the Geth to weaken Alliance military capabilities. Returns to pre-Saren weapon specs, including frictionless materials, were made as quickly as possible.


If there ever is a new codex entry... I vote for this, gj Temper.

#122
LoveAsThouWilt

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I liked the ME1 system but at the same time I like the ME2 system so, I can't pick and choose. The thermal clip is simply ammo with a different name, but I still like it. And, I am not of the shooter player fanbase (well, not really).

#123
jpetrey123

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lets get rid of you codex style

#124
CatatonicMan

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What they should have done was implemented a hybrid system. You can use a single heatsink indefinitely and never run out of ammo, but you are very limited by the weapon cooldown. It would be good for short fights, but bad for longer battles.

You also have the option of exchanging the sinks out if you need to keep the weapon cool, which allows for longer battles while depleting your heatsink reserve.

Such a system would have allowed them to make the weapons (and even weapon mods) more complex (and existent).

This is what I thought they were going to do; it would have been far better than the senseless and bizarre changes they made to the canon and the game mechanics.

I mean, they didn't even implement the ammo system very well. Why don't the clips cool down on their own, given enough time? Why can't you store the used clips and let them cool outside the gun (other than the scalding of the flesh part, I guess). Why do they have different ammo reserve pools (other than as an arbitrary method to 'encourage' switching weapons)? Why not allow all the ammo from a clip to go into the gun you are using first (instead of distributing it evenly to 'encourage' the previous)? 

It just doesn't make sense.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 09 février 2010 - 05:09 .


#125
Halfheart

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I like the idea of a hybrid system like that CataonicMan, and the extra heatsinks could be extremely limited like medigel, or grenades from ME1.