41 réponses à ce sujet

[Hiero Glyph]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I tried to show how ineffective the hand cannon was against barriered enemies. I also was trying to show how, when put in a situation where you cannot get access to more ammo, the weakness of the hand cannon really shows. I did spam my abilities, but thats because I was hoping to avoid dying

My first vid has more of what your looking for. For right now, I'm just trying to recreate gameplay situations, not necessarily a lab type situation. I can definitely do that, but I felt like it would be cheating a little bit to divorce the pistols from a real gameplay type situation.

For a straight damage comparison, the hand cannon wins hands down, but I think more factors go into a weapon's qualifier as "better" than a simple damage comparison. I think if that's what your looking for, there is a chart on Gamefaqs that has straight damage comparisons.

My point is that in a game scenario you only need to remove the enemy's defenses (armor/shield/barrier) before you can lay waste to them.  The Hand Cannon is designed to quickly remove armor.  Why would you use it against barriers?  The example is inherently flawed as that is one of the worst things you can use a Hand Cannon to do.  Besides, if I want to remove a barrier, why not just use an SMG?

The goal of the Hand Cannon is to remove armor quickly and allow you to follow up with an ability (because you did not use an ability to remove the armor).  Any other situation allows another weapon to become superior.  The goal of the Predator is ammo efficiency and to provide the player with more bullets to fire at a target.  Against weak enemies the Predator does its job better than the Hand Cannon.  Against Krogans or most armored enemies on Insanity the Hand Cannon wins.  It has nothing to do with DPS and is simply about efficiency.

[Average Gatsby]

Hiero Glyph wrote...

My point is that in a game scenario you only need to remove the enemy's defenses (armor/shield/barrier) before you can lay waste to them.  The Hand Cannon is designed to quickly remove armor.  Why would you use it against barriers?  The example is inherently flawed as that is one of the worst things you can use a Hand Cannon to do.  Besides, if I want to remove a barrier, why not just use an SMG?

The goal of the Hand Cannon is to remove armor quickly and allow you to follow up with an ability (because you did not use an ability to remove the armor).  Any other situation allows another weapon to become superior.  The goal of the Predator is ammo efficiency and to provide the player with more bullets to fire at a target.  Against weak enemies the Predator does its job better than the Hand Cannon.  Against Krogans or most armored enemies on Insanity the Hand Cannon wins.  It has nothing to do with DPS and is simply about efficiency.

I think you're missing my point here.

First, what your saying is knowledge you've aquired through experience. I am showing people that experience. I know that the HC and the Pistol are both inferior to the shuriken against barrier/shield enemies. What I'm showing is, out of the two pistols, which is more effective, should you be in a position where you need/want to use one. Now you may think that this may never happen, and you may be right, but that isn't the point of the comparison. I'm dealing exclusively with pistols to determine their overall differences in a variety of situations.

I'm not going to argue with any of your points on whether the HC or Pred is better at this enemy vs that, because thats a simple analysis. I'm trying to go deeper than that with the pistols. Your analysis of "HC is better at fighting Krogan" is incomplete. Sure, in a 1v1 matchup, you v krogan, the hand cannon is superior because you can unleash a large amount of damage in a short amount of time. But that is incomplete. What about fighting 2 krogan, or 3? you have to consider other factors like ammo supply, fire rate, things of that nature.

I'm trying to develop a total view of using the pistol. This post is only about pistols. So talking about the SMG is kind of missing the point because the focus of discussion and observation is just pistols. I have never said that it is advisable to use only pistols, i would never make that argument. I'm showing "What if" scenario's to help people arrive at some conclusions about each pistol. I don't know if I can explain this any differently. 

[SmilingMirror]

Your missing some key points, first, the Carnifex has better stopping power. Second, its a superior in extreme close-range-combat (melee, shoot, melee, shoot situation). Finally, the Carnifex has better range and accuracy. I'm surprised that you don't consider these things as critical as something so superficial as ammo conservation.

I also agree with alot of points made that the Carnifex is the better gun, running out of ammo is rare if your bonus weapon is an M-8 Avenger or your making good use of your biotics.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 09 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[trueKieran]

SmilingMirror wrote...

Your missing some key points, first, the Carnifex has better stopping power. Second, its a superior in extreme close-range-combat (melee, shoot, melee, shoot situation). Finally, the Carnifex has better range and accuracy. I'm surprised that you don't consider these things as critical as something so superficial as ammo conservation.

I also agree with alot of points made that the Carnifex is the better gun, running out of ammo is rare if your bonus weapon is an M-8 Avenger or your making good use of your biotics.

This is an important point. In some situations, you have to take out enemies at a distance because you simply can't get closer, like when they shoot from balconies. If you were only using a pistol and no other weapon or power, you'd have a hard time with the standard pistol because it's simply inaccurate at mid to long distance.

I just finished my first playthrough yesterday as a soldier using only pistol and sniper rifle 95% of the time, and while I was short on pistol ammo a few times, the only time I really ran out of it during a fight with several enemies still alive was during the last mission.

Modifié par trueKieran, 09 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[Average Gatsby]

trueKieran wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...

Your missing some key points, first, the Carnifex has better stopping power. Second, its a superior in extreme close-range-combat (melee, shoot, melee, shoot situation). Finally, the Carnifex has better range and accuracy. I'm surprised that you don't consider these things as critical as something so superficial as ammo conservation.

I also agree with alot of points made that the Carnifex is the better gun, running out of ammo is rare if your bonus weapon is an M-8 Avenger or your making good use of your biotics.

This is an important point. In some situations, you have to take out enemies at a distance because you simply can't get closer, like when they shoot from balconies. If you were only using a pistol and no other weapon or power, you'd have a hard time with the standard pistol because it's simply inaccurate at mid to long distance.

I just finished my first playthrough yesterday as a soldier using only pistol and sniper rifle 95% of the time, and while I was short on pistol ammo a few times, the only time I really ran out of it during a fight with several enemies still alive was during the last mission.

I am definitely going to talk about this stuff when I have a good save state where I can show these situations. Accuracy is going to be an interesting test though because it definitely tied to fire rate. The Carnifex looks more accurate on shot 0, but in cover the difference is miniscule. However to recreate that accuracy you really have to wait, whereas the Predator you can get off 2-3 shots before needing to wait. I think I have a save state where I can recreate a ranged fight.

Also for Hiero Glyph, I have a save state where I fight a bunch of krogan in a row, so I can the damage output per shot of the carnifex vs the total damage of the predator.

[trueKieran]

Average Gatsby wrote...

I am definitely going to talk about this stuff when I have a good save state where I can show these situations. Accuracy is going to be an interesting test though because it definitely tied to fire rate. The Carnifex looks more accurate on shot 0, but in cover the difference is miniscule. However to recreate that accuracy you really have to wait, whereas the Predator you can get off 2-3 shots before needing to wait. I think I have a save state where I can recreate a ranged fight.

Also for Hiero Glyph, I have a save state where I fight a bunch of krogan in a row, so I can the damage output per shot of the carnifex vs the total damage of the predator.

No offence but are you testing which one is better to kill your enemies with or which one is better at put as many bullets into them as possible? The usage of a pistol is certainly different whether you use it as a main weapon or just an addition to your powers. In the first case you would want to get as much out of every shot as possible, no matter which pistol and that means aiming preferably to the head. If you just use it to fire a few shots at the body and to finish them off while the rest of the team did most of the work, the Predator is a good choice, a krogan body is hard to miss after all.

Your second comparsion isn't really much of a comparsion also by the way. Miranda is taken out early during the Carnifex part (because you placed her in front of the crate instead of behind it might I add) and you don't bring her back. Then you say "look how many are still left when my ammo is low" not taking into account that:

1) Miranda didn't do any damage with her weapon

2) You weren't able to use her warp which you used during the Predator part

3) You and Garrus are forced to stay in cover to survive more often because the enemies can concentrate on two instead of three people

That's often the problem with people who have a theory, you know. Wittingly or unwittingly they tend to rather try to proof it instead of testing it.

Modifié par trueKieran, 10 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[Average Gatsby]

trueKieran wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

I am definitely going to talk about this stuff when I have a good save state where I can show these situations. Accuracy is going to be an interesting test though because it definitely tied to fire rate. The Carnifex looks more accurate on shot 0, but in cover the difference is miniscule. However to recreate that accuracy you really have to wait, whereas the Predator you can get off 2-3 shots before needing to wait. I think I have a save state where I can recreate a ranged fight.

Also for Hiero Glyph, I have a save state where I fight a bunch of krogan in a row, so I can the damage output per shot of the carnifex vs the total damage of the predator.

No offence but are you testing which one is better to kill your enemies with or which one is better at put as many bullets into them as possible? The usage of a pistol is certainly different whether you use it as a main weapon or just an addition to your powers. In the first case you would want to get as much out of every shot as possible, no matter which pistol and that means aiming preferably to the head. If you just use it to fire a few shots at the body and to finish them off while the rest of the team did most of the work, the Predator is a good choice, a krogan body is hard to miss after all.

Your second comparsion isn't really much of a comparsion also by the way. Miranda is taken out early during the Carnifex part (because you placed her in front of the crate instead of behind it might I add) and you don't bring her back. Then you say "look how many are still left when my ammo is low" not taking into account that:

1) Miranda didn't do any damage with her weapon

2) You weren't able to use her warp which you used during the Predator part

3) You and Garrus are forced to stay in cover to survive more often because the enemies can concentrate on two instead of three people

That's often the problem with people who have a theory, you know. Wittingly or unwittingly they tend to rather try to proof it instead of testing it.

I'm not done yet. If I was done, I'd say I was done. Carnifex is going to get some love from me eventually, But my first priority was to establish that they were even things that should be compared. Many people think that the carnifex is just this infinitely better weapon, and even if it is a better weapon, I'm attempting to show that there are reasons to choose the predator over the carnifex, like in that situation I showed.

[GCreature]

I always assumed that if you were good at scoring headshots you should take the Handcannon. If you're accurate you'll rarely want for ammo.



If you can only manage torso shots most of the time you should stick with the Predator.



Kind of like the difference between one of the bolt action sniper rifles and the semi-auto one.

[Grand_Commander13]

 If that is the case I would measure their effectiveness in the following ways:

1) Body shots to kill a given enemy (Collector Drone, Blood Pack Trooper, Eclipse Trooper being three good victims).
2) Using these figures, rounds per kill.
3) And using those figures, kills per full loadout of ammo.
4) Rounds per heat sink pickup.
5) Using 3 and 4, how much of a kill do you get from each heat sink pickup.

Modifié par Grand_Commander13, 10 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[Hiero Glyph]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

 If that is the case I would measure their effectiveness in the following ways:

1) Body shots to kill a given enemy (Collector Drone, Blood Pack Trooper, Eclipse Trooper being three good victims).
2) Using these figures, rounds per kill.
3) And using those figures, kills per full loadout of ammo.
4) Rounds per heat sink pickup.
5) Using 3 and 4, how much of a kill do you get from each heat sink pickup.

That does not take into account urgency.  Meaning that you may not have time to fire extra shots or remain exposed from cover for that amount of time.  Also, as I mentioned earlier there is a difference between killing an enemy and only stripping their armor and allowing you to use an ability on them.  In some cases they are only a Throw away from death so counting the number of bullets until death is not needed.  What you want is DPS, not effectiveness.

[SmilingMirror]

Well, if your doing tests on a video, it wouldn't really matter if you died, i think you tried to hard to live. For instance, team members are doing damage in your fight and your throwing around warp too much making it hard to figure out whats happening. We're doing tests for good data not hard-core survival. I think its great that your putting in effort to make a video though, i can't stress that enough. (I might of come off crass before)

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 10 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[JaegerBane]

Looy wrote...

The best way to play pistol classes is to use the SMG most of the time, then switch to the Hand cannon when a tough enemy or an enemy at long range appears.

Exactly. The hand cannon is practically unusable by itself.

[reepneep]

JaegerBane wrote...

Looy wrote...

The best way to play pistol classes is to use the SMG most of the time, then switch to the Hand cannon when a tough enemy or an enemy at long range appears.

Exactly. The hand cannon is practically unusable by itself.

Well, it is a pistol, after all.  They aren't really intended to be primary weapons.

[Sa Seba]

That hand cannon is meant for head shots. If you manage to make your shots count, you have a powerful sidearm in your hand That is as long as you don't have husks or varrens coming at you, since they will approach fast and often in numbers, going for meele damage on you.

The pause screen also helps a lot with lining up your shots.



I have been mainly using the hand cannon, assault rifle (short bursts) and Viper on my fist playthrough as infiltrator (on normal that is). And Incinerate of course ;-)

[BIGMIKE4444]

m-3 predator way better, 3 times as much ammo and 2 bullets equals 1 hand cannon do the math

[kinsha22]

I've found I like the hand cannon with my soldier. Have plenty of ammo in other weapons, and I save the hand cannon for a final shot once defenses are down. I'm sure critical hits would make it even better,but I haven't unlocked it yet on my soldier for this insanity play through. On other classes, particularly my last adept play through, I needed the extra ammo for the predator. I needed lots of ammo before I got the tempest SMG and I needed the extra rounds that the hand cannon just didn't have. I found the predator was fine for 1 or 2 shots, but 3 straight headshots in in quick succesion is a bit hard for me with out adrenaline rush.

[NaclynE]

I don't know if it's me but I think it also depends on class type. I don't know which one of the two usually does the most in armor pierceing and from the video it's still hard to tell.

I need to compare them myself personally.