107 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Yeah, just so you know, I'm not bashing on Kaidan for not having good email writing skills, I'm just saying that, comparatively, Ash's apology email makes the Horizon confrontation sting a LOT less than Kaidan's apology.

[noobzor99]

Liara's sucks worse, because she doesn't even send you one...

[chem light]

Can someone at least paraphrase what Ash said? My husband hasn't gotten to horizon yet.

[freelovefreeway]

My guess is that Horizon pretty much split people into two groups--people who were understood where Kaidan/Ashley were coming from and didn't need an apology but appreciated anything extra from their LIs and people who were so turned off by the outburst that no apology (especially in email form) would fix the damage.

I wanted Shepard to apologize to Kaidan for betraying him after the events on Horizon, so for me the email is less about Kaidan apologizing and more about giving us a little bit of the Kaidan we're otherwise missing out on. The email was Kaidan through and through. I can actually hear his voice actor saying the lines because they are so similar to the lines he said aloud in the first game. He was being himself so completely and reminding us of all the little personality quirks that made us like him in the first place.

The phrases that people here are getting hung up on in Kaidan's email are actually the phrases that a lot of the Kaidan fans like most about the email because those are the ones that are the most Kaidanesque and the ones that we read the most into.

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

They both act like jerks. After what they went through with Shepard in ME1, they should have more trust... or if they think Cerberus is mind-controlling Shepard then they should be trying to help. Instead they just coldly turn away and then send an insipid email. Shows their true colors IMO.

Well yes this is true. I agree completely. Ashley just came off better in the followup is all.

But even still, I don't want them back. Tali had every reason to hate Cerberus but backed Shepard up regardless. Garrus too. Doubly impressive since they're aliens and know what Cerberus is about. I'm not saying Ash/Kai needed to drop everything they were doing to come along. But you'd at least think they'd give you a little credit considering you just rescued them and half the colony.

So you expect them to give up their principles to follow their gf/bf?  After the atrocities Cerberus commited in ME1 I didn't want to be working for them, I can sure as hell understand why the people I love might think I'd lost my mind.  I like the fact that they both show they'll follow their own convictions, I don't wanna date puppets who follow me blindly.

And neither said it was over, they're having a hard time processing the fact that the person they loved died and came back and is now hooked up all cosy with a psycho extremist group!  They're saying by not saying it's over that they trust you enough to see how it plays out.

[Antbrawler]

For those of you who need reminding of Ashley's email or havn't seen it:









Personally i think the email was wonderfull, just shows how deep of a character Ashley is, there is clearly hope of the romance picking up again in me 3 after the email and holding Ashley's picture before going into the Omega 4 relay, well.. if you stayed faithfull to her, i know i certainly did!

Modifié par Antbrawler, 07 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[BECC4]

Thanks Antbrawler, my MaleShep playthrough hasn't got that far yet

[Antbrawler]

BECC4 wrote...

Thanks Antbrawler, my MaleShep playthrough hasn't got that far yet

No probs

[stillnotking]

BECC4 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

They both act like jerks. After what they went through with Shepard in ME1, they should have more trust... or if they think Cerberus is mind-controlling Shepard then they should be trying to help. Instead they just coldly turn away and then send an insipid email. Shows their true colors IMO.

Well yes this is true. I agree completely. Ashley just came off better in the followup is all.

But even still, I don't want them back. Tali had every reason to hate Cerberus but backed Shepard up regardless. Garrus too. Doubly impressive since they're aliens and know what Cerberus is about. I'm not saying Ash/Kai needed to drop everything they were doing to come along. But you'd at least think they'd give you a little credit considering you just rescued them and half the colony.

So you expect them to give up their principles to follow their gf/bf?  After the atrocities Cerberus commited in ME1 I didn't want to be working for them, I can sure as hell understand why the people I love might think I'd lost my mind.  I like the fact that they both show they'll follow their own convictions, I don't wanna date puppets who follow me blindly.

And neither said it was over, they're having a hard time processing the fact that the person they loved died and came back and is now hooked up all cosy with a psycho extremist group!  They're saying by not saying it's over that they trust you enough to see how it plays out.

To me it wasn't even about romantic entanglements; that was basically an afterthought.  It's more that Shepard was right about everything in ME1 despite everyone thinking s/he was crazy.  And now Kaidan and Ashley prefer to believe that too, and work for an organization that believes it.

The problem is particularly stark because they were sent to Horizon to see the threat for themselves, and now that they've seen that it is clearly a non-human race with highly advanced technology behind the abductions, they are still looking for a way to blame Cerberus.  Obviously they are letting their personal feelings prevent them from seeing the blindingly obvious.  If they were going back to the Alliance to plead Shepard's case and try to convince the Council to act, that would be one thing, but they're not.  It's just a bizarre betrayal of their old commander and the evidence of their own eyes.

[Feops1]

I guess these emails don't happen if there's no LI....



My femshep did not receive a nice follow up letter from Ash.

[BECC4]

stillnotking wrote...
To me it wasn't even about romantic entanglements; that was basically an afterthought.  It's more that Shepard was right about everything in ME1 despite everyone thinking s/he was crazy.  And now Kaidan and Ashley prefer to believe that too, and work for an organization that believes it.

They didn't say that the collectors weren't a threat more that they didn't trust Ceberus motivations, they don't say they say they don't believe you, just that they're worried that Cerberus is using you.

stillnotking wrote...

The problem is particularly stark because they were sent to Horizon to see the threat for themselves, and now that they've seen that it is clearly a non-human race with highly advanced technology behind the abductions, they are still looking for a way to blame Cerberus.  Obviously they are letting their personal feelings prevent them from seeing the blindingly obvious.  If they were going back to the Alliance to plead Shepard's case and try to convince the Council to act, that would be one thing, but they're not.  It's just a bizarre betrayal of their old commander and the evidence of their own eyes.

They were sent to Horizon to see if Cerb was the threat, so can you really blame their concern?  Anderson says later that they confirmed your story to be true so I don't see how them not wanting to join Cerberus with you is a betrayal to Shep when they essentially back you up.

[stillnotking]

BECC4 wrote...
They were sent to Horizon to see if Cerb was the threat, so can you really blame their concern?  Anderson says later that they confirmed your story to be true so I don't see how them not wanting to join Cerberus with you is a betrayal to Shep when they essentially back you up.

A rational response would be to look at the situation and say "I hate Cerberus and they've done terrible things, but obviously they were right about this and therefore Shepard is right too".  I mean, if it's logical to refuse to help just because Cerberus is the primary group opposing the Collectors, then Shepard's actions for the entire game of ME2 are illogical.  Someone is being incredibly stupid here.

They may "back you up" with the Alliance (though it sure doesn't sound like they were going to on Horizon), but then what?  Just keep working for a group that denies an obvious threat and waves away the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists?  At a very minimum you would expect them to push for the Council to act, and if that didn't work, to try to get back in contact with Shepard.

[BECC4]

stillnotking wrote...
A rational response would be to look at the situation and say "I hate Cerberus and they've done terrible things, but obviously they were right about this and therefore Shepard is right too".  I mean, if it's logical to refuse to help just because Cerberus is the primary group opposing the Collectors, then Shepard's actions for the entire game of ME2 are illogical.  Someone is being incredibly stupid here.

They may "back you up" with the Alliance (though it sure doesn't sound like they were going to on Horizon), but then what?  Just keep working for a group that denies an obvious threat and waves away the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists?  At a very minimum you would expect them to push for the Council to act, and if that didn't work, to try to get back in contact with Shepard.

Who said all responses should be rational?  Humans are not rational creatures all of the time, I like that their responses are what they are, it's more human and truer to character.

As far as the council goes, if they wouldn't listen to you what chance have Ash or Kaidan got?  If anything it shows how much they think of you that they're confident in your ability to deal with it.  They prob will get back in touch with Shep, in ME3 I suspect but I wouldn't expect them to go AWOL to follow Shep, it's bad enough that Shep is technically a deserter.

I'm not arguing that they handle it well, more that I think they respond realistically and can see where they're coming form.  But I don't see any betrayal in what they did, hell I'd be pissed at Shep's 'Hey how you doing?' attitude, even more so if you cared for them, remember they didn't actually know that Shep was dead for the last two years, how are they to know that you haven't been working with Cerb all that time and just abandoned them?  I can see there being trust issues.

[BECC4]

Double post

Modifié par BECC4, 07 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[Antbrawler]

BECC4 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...
A rational response would be to look at the situation and say "I hate Cerberus and they've done terrible things, but obviously they were right about this and therefore Shepard is right too".  I mean, if it's logical to refuse to help just because Cerberus is the primary group opposing the Collectors, then Shepard's actions for the entire game of ME2 are illogical.  Someone is being incredibly stupid here.

They may "back you up" with the Alliance (though it sure doesn't sound like they were going to on Horizon), but then what?  Just keep working for a group that denies an obvious threat and waves away the deaths of hundreds of thousands of colonists?  At a very minimum you would expect them to push for the Council to act, and if that didn't work, to try to get back in contact with Shepard.

Who said all responses should be rational?  Humans are not rational creatures all of the time, I like that their responses are what they are, it's more human and truer to character.

As far as the council goes, if they wouldn't listen to you what chance have Ash or Kaidan got?  If anything it shows how much they think of you that they're confident in your ability to deal with it.  They prob will get back in touch with Shep, in ME3 I suspect but I wouldn't expect them to go AWOL to follow Shep, it's bad enough that Shep is technically a deserter.

I'm not arguing that they handle it well, more that I think they respond realistically and can see where they're coming form.  But I don't see any betrayal in what they did, hell I'd be pissed at Shep's 'Hey how you doing?' attitude, even more so if you cared for them, remember they didn't actually know that Shep was dead for the last two years, how are they to know that you haven't been working with Cerb all that time and just abandoned them?  I can see there being trust issues.

Exactly, one of the best things about Ashley in particular, is that she is REAL. On Horizon Shepard appears out the blue after not seeing Ashley/Kaidan for two years. All sorts of emotions are bound to be present from a real human being, you cant expect them just to suddenly accept everything, for all they know Cerberus could have messed with Shepard, and they would be wise to think that considering all the evidence of strange experiments etc in me 1.

What bioware did just made the relationship more realistic and interesting, Ashley in particular is one of the deepest characters in the game in my opinion, once you take the effort to explore her background and personality you can see exactly why she does what she does. With the email you get after Horizon and holding Ashley's picture before going into the relay you can clearly see there are still some deep feelings there and alot of hope for the relationship, all this makes for one of the most interesting and realistic relationships in the game if you ask me.

[BECC4]

Antbrawler wrote...
 With the email you get after Horizon and holding Ashley's picture before going into the relay you can clearly see there are still some deep feelings there and alot of hope for the relationship, all this makes for one of the most interesting and realistic relationships in the game if you ask me.

This, way better than any of the sex scenes which IMO were a poor copy of the originals in ME1, staring at that pic showed that Shep was emotionally connected to her/his LI and made me feel as though Shep really had something to fight for, even if there was still the possibility of not getting them back.

[stillnotking]

BECC4 wrote...
Who said all responses should be rational?  Humans are not rational creatures all of the time, I like that their responses are what they are, it's more human and truer to character.

But that's exactly what I'm saying.  They are letting an emotional response get in the way of doing what's clearly the right thing to do, which is to help Cerberus fight the Collectors if the Alliance won't step up.  Even setting aside the fact that they owe Shepard their lives and may even have been Shepard's lover, their decision really isn't defensible.  If the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake, they need to get over their issues and do what needs to be done.  Obviously Tali isn't real thrilled about working with a geth either.  <_<

I hope they are not squadmates in ME3, because their actions in ME2 proved that they are unstable and untrustworthy characters.

[BECC4]

stillnotking wrote...
But that's exactly what I'm saying.  They are letting an emotional response get in the way of doing what's clearly the right thing to do, which is to help Cerberus fight the Collectors if the Alliance won't step up.  Even setting aside the fact that they owe Shepard their lives and may even have been Shepard's lover, their decision really isn't defensible.  If the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake, they need to get over their issues and do what needs to be done.  Obviously Tali isn't real thrilled about working with a geth either.  <_<

I hope they are not squadmates in ME3, because their actions in ME2 proved that they are unstable and untrustworthy characters.

Ummm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, 'the right thing' to some people is not necessarily the same to others, and to condem them because they don't agree with Shep, well it just doesn't sit right with me.  Technically Shep owes Cerb her life but I still told TIM to shove it because I don't agree with his ideals or methods and lets face it, some would argue that he wants to do the right thing too.

Shep makes the hard choices which is what makes her/him special, if everyone else in game did the same, then well it wouldn't be Shep's story.

What I would like to see in ME3 is the choice to have them as squadmates, I didn't like have nut-job Jack forced on me and certainly wouldn't choose to have someone that unstable in my crew but would welcome Kaidan or Ash back.

[Antbrawler]

BECC4 wrote...

Antbrawler wrote...
 With the email you get after Horizon and holding Ashley's picture before going into the relay you can clearly see there are still some deep feelings there and alot of hope for the relationship, all this makes for one of the most interesting and realistic relationships in the game if you ask me.

This, way better than any of the sex scenes which IMO were a poor copy of the originals in ME1, staring at that pic showed that Shep was emotionally connected to her/his LI and made me feel as though Shep really had something to fight for, even if there was still the possibility of not getting them back.

Yeah, holding the picture is alot more meaningfull than one of those poorly done sex scenes, it brings the whole relationship to a different level, when you look at that picture it feels like you are fighting to see them again, its all very well done from a writing perspective and alot of people seem to fail to see that.

stillnotking wrote...

BECC4 wrote...
Who said
all responses should be rational?  Humans are not rational creatures
all of the time, I like that their responses are what they are, it's
more human and truer to character.

But that's exactly
what I'm saying.  They are letting an emotional response get in the way
of doing what's clearly the right thing to do, which is to help
Cerberus fight the Collectors if the Alliance won't step up.  Even
setting aside the fact that they owe Shepard their lives and may even
have been Shepard's lover, their decision really isn't defensible.  If
the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake, they need to get over
their issues and do what needs to be done.  Obviously Tali isn't real
thrilled about working with a geth either.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

I hope they are not squadmates in ME3, because their actions in ME2 proved that they are unstable and untrustworthy characters.

And letting those emotions get in the way is exactly what humans seem to do best, it adds more to the complexity of the characters, they have legitimate emotional and non emotional reasons not to suddenly drop everything and follow Shepard, not to mention the reasons from the writing perspective, if the reason why Bioware didn't give the me 1 li's major roles was indeed to keep them alive for a larger role in me 3 then i think it has been done rather well, it has added both realism and in my opinion another level of interest to the relationship.

Sure they could have behaved alot better on Horizon but the responses that were available from Shepard were just as bad, it all indicates that this is intended by the writers and i think it will lead to something great in me 3.

As for them being unstable and untrustworthy if you understood how deep and well thought out both characters were and took the time to invest in understanding them and their personalities you would see why they are most certainly not unstable and untrustworthy, they are merely being cautious and doing something human.

As Becca said, we will have to agree to disagree, different people have different opinions on characters and situations.

Modifié par Antbrawler, 07 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[syllogi]

stillnotking wrote...

But that's exactly what I'm saying.  They are letting an emotional response get in the way of doing what's clearly the right thing to do, which is to help Cerberus fight the Collectors if the Alliance won't step up.  Even setting aside the fact that they owe Shepard their lives and may even have been Shepard's lover, their decision really isn't defensible.  If the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake, they need to get over their issues and do what needs to be done.  Obviously Tali isn't real thrilled about working with a geth either.  <_<

I hope they are not squadmates in ME3, because their actions in ME2 proved that they are unstable and untrustworthy characters.

Really?  Because I played the game as Shepard, and I still don't think working with Cerberus was the "right" thing to do.  The Alliance had no intel on the Collectors, but they did have info about Shepard working with Cerberus, and rumors that Cerberus was behind the missing human colonies...info that TIM leaked.  The Alliance did not choose not to step up, they didn't have the facts that Cerberus had. 

Looking at the situation from their perspective, Ash or Kaidan JUST found out Shepard is alive, was rebuilt by Cerberus, and is now working with them.  That's a lot to take in.  For all they knew, Cerberus could have used the control chip Miranda wanted to install.  If they had followed Shepard blindly, and Cerberus had brainwashed Shep, would they be "unstable and untrustworthy" characters???

I hope they are squadmates in the third game, because they showed sound judgement and common sense on Horizon.

[i love lamp x3]

i wasn't interested in ashley as an LI and i always wanted to like kaidan for nostalgic reasons (same VA as carth onasi from kotor) but... he's such a douche i wanted the little renegade right trigger thing to pop up so i could punch him in the face. seriously wow what a douche. then i played another game after ashley was my LI and i was annoyed that she didnt even take a second to try to understand but at least she was kinda sweet and her email was kinda nice. i was a dudeshep both times though, maybe he's more of a jerk to dudeshep

[chem light]

Thanks for posting the Antbrawler. Now that I've seen it? Yeah, Ash wrote a much better letter, but that's just the devs keeping her in character. She was always more forthright with her feelings.

[BECC4]

chem light wrote...

Thanks for posting the Antbrawler. Now that I've seen it? Yeah, Ash wrote a much better letter, but that's just the devs keeping her in character. She was always more forthright with her feelings.

This.  I remember one line in ME1 where Shep says 'are you always so cautious with a sure thing?' so just showa how in character the interactions were

[Spectre_Shepard]

BECC4 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...
But that's exactly what I'm saying.  They are letting an emotional response get in the way of doing what's clearly the right thing to do, which is to help Cerberus fight the Collectors if the Alliance won't step up.  Even setting aside the fact that they owe Shepard their lives and may even have been Shepard's lover, their decision really isn't defensible.  If the survival of the entire galaxy is at stake, they need to get over their issues and do what needs to be done.  Obviously Tali isn't real thrilled about working with a geth either.  <_<

I hope they are not squadmates in ME3, because their actions in ME2 proved that they are unstable and untrustworthy characters.

Ummm, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, 'the right thing' to some people is not necessarily the same to others, and to condem them because they don't agree with Shep, well it just doesn't sit right with me.  Technically Shep owes Cerb her life but I still told TIM to shove it because I don't agree with his ideals or methods and lets face it, some would argue that he wants to do the right thing too.

Shep makes the hard choices which is what makes her/him special, if everyone else in game did the same, then well it wouldn't be Shep's story.

What I would like to see in ME3 is the choice to have them as squadmates, I didn't like have nut-job Jack forced on me and certainly wouldn't choose to have someone that unstable in my crew but would welcome Kaidan or Ash back.

I agreee. What makes these characters great (and Ashley in particular) are their emotions. Could you imagine an emotionless Ashley?

[Cutlass Jack]

TeenZombie wrote...

Really?  Because I played the game as Shepard, and I still don't think working with Cerberus was the "right" thing to do.  The Alliance had no intel on the Collectors, but they did have info about Shepard working with Cerberus, and rumors that Cerberus was behind the missing human colonies...info that TIM leaked.  The Alliance did not choose not to step up, they didn't have the facts that Cerberus had. 

Looking at the situation from their perspective, Ash or Kaidan JUST found out Shepard is alive, was rebuilt by Cerberus, and is now working with them.  That's a lot to take in.  For all they knew, Cerberus could have used the control chip Miranda wanted to install.  If they had followed Shepard blindly, and Cerberus had brainwashed Shep, would they be "unstable and untrustworthy" characters???

I hope they are squadmates in the third game, because they showed sound judgement and common sense on Horizon.

Actually Ash/Kaidan didn't just find out anything about Shepard. They came to Horizon specifically chasing down rumors of your existence. When they see you, you just finished fighting your way through tons of hostile aliens, even shooting a hole in the ship just to rescue them and the other citizens of Horizon. In other words, you were acting 100% in the fashion they knew you. Your very first meeting with Ashley involved you rescuing her under similar circumstances after all.

There was nothing whatsoever going on in your action there to say you were being anything other than the hero they travelled the galaxy with. And in the last game they always stuck by you no matter what decisions you made, trusting you to have a plan. Honestly setting the Rachni queen free in ME1 was far more questionable than anything that happened on Horizon.

As for Intel on the Collectors? Ash/Kai witnessed it firsthand prior to your arrival.

Again, compare their reactions to Tali's. Tali's people have every reason to hate Cerberus, and when you see her, you are travelling with only Cerberus personnel (Jacob/Miranda only choices). Still she works with you without hesitation. She doesn't trust Cerberus. She does trust you unquestioningly. When she does join you its to watch your back against Cerberus.

The point here is that its rather sad that the non-human members of your previous group are completely willing to trust you and are happy to have you back, even if you're working with Cerberus. Ash/Kai chew you out like you somehow sold them out by rescuing them.

Just so we're clear, my problem wasn't that they didn't drop everything and join Cerberus to be with me. Nor that they moved on with their lives during the two years (was dead after all.) Only that they didn't trust me when by all indications I was doing exactly what I did the entire time they knew me. Saving the Galaxy.