107 réponses à ce sujet

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Actually Ash/Kaidan didn't just find out anything about Shepard. They came to Horizon specifically chasing down rumors of your existence. When they see you, you just finished fighting your way through tons of hostile aliens, even shooting a hole in the ship just to rescue them and the other citizens of Horizon. In other words, you were acting 100% in the fashion they knew you. Your very first meeting with Ashley involved you rescuing her under similar circumstances after all.

Hearing a rumour that someone they know is dead, is actually alive, and finding out it's you and not an imposter is something totally different.  They said themselves they wanted to believe it but actually didn't until you were stood there. 

Cutlass Jack wrote...
There was nothing whatsoever going on in your action there to say you were being anything other than the hero they travelled the galaxy with. And in the last game they always stuck by you no matter what decisions you made, trusting you to have a plan. Honestly setting the Rachni queen free in ME1 was far more questionable than anything that happened on Horizon.

But last time you were both working for the military with the same goals and ideals and you were their commanding officer, you didn't ask them to desert.  They and Shep know that Cerberus has questionable morals, at that point they are more concerned about whether or not Cerberus is using you.

Cutlass Jack wrote...
As for Intel on the Collectors? Ash/Kai witnessed it firsthand prior to your arrival.

Which they is why they back you up to Anderson, he says as much.

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Again, compare their reactions to Tali's. Tali's people have every reason to hate Cerberus, and when you see her, you are travelling with only Cerberus personnel (Jacob/Miranda only choices). Still she works with you without hesitation. She doesn't trust Cerberus. She does trust you unquestioningly. When she does join you its to watch your back against Cerberus.

Just like Ash and Kaidan 1st she says no, she has her own mission to do and only when released by the fleet does she join up with.  In the first instance you're working to get the Quarian why would she turn you away knowing the kind of person Shep is she would also know that it would be pointless as Shep always gets the job done. 

Cutlass Jack wrote...
The point here is that its rather sad that the non-human members of your previous group are completely willing to trust you and are happy to have you back, even if you're working with Cerberus. Ash/Kai chew you out like you somehow sold them out by rescuing them.

They can't help their emotions, they feel betrayed, at that point they don't know you were dead, are prob afraid that you ran off to join Cerb and that's where you've been for the last 2 yrs as you said yourself, they've been fed info by the Alliance and prob come to the wrong conclusion.

Cutlass Jack wrote...
............ Only that they didn't trust me when by all indications I was doing exactly what I did the entire time they knew me. Saving the Galaxy.

The e-mail they send says that if anyone can do it you can, I don't think there's a question of trust for you just the organisation.  I saw nothing to indicate they didn't trust you, that they were worried, yes, hurt, yes but the fact that they both say after it's all over....... well to me it implies they need to sort their heads out first and I won't badmouth them for not compromising their own morals to follow someone else, like I said before, I don't want to date a sheep.

Modifié par BECC4, 07 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[Antbrawler]

BECC4 wrote...

like I said before, I don't want to date a sheep.

This!

[Cutlass Jack]

If Ash/Shep feel 'betrayed' by me after I came to save them, then they never really knew me at all is what I'm saying.

Yes they back you up at Anderson. That wasn't my point. My point was that they knew that you saved them from the collectors before they chewed you out.

And Tali would have joined you immediately if she could have. Her journals and dialogue say as much. Also remember she backs you over her own team on that first mission when they change plans.

Anyway, I think they're bigger sheep for believing what others tell them instead of trusting what they know about you firsthand.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 07 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[Cross1280]

When I first got to that point on Horizon i wanted a renegade option to allow me to shoot Ash right there on the spot. after the e-mail i did not wish to shot them as much but still decided to kick her to the curb and go for Tali.

[Antbrawler]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

If Ash/Shep feel 'betrayed' by me after I came to save them, then they never really knew me at all is what I'm saying.

Yes they back you up at Anderson. That wasn't my point. My point was that they knew that you saved them from the collectors before they chewed you out.

And Tali would have joined you immediately if she could have. Her journals and dialogue say as much. Also remember she backs you over her own team on that first mission when they change plans.

Anyway, I think they're bigger sheep for believing what others tell them instead of trusting what they know about you firsthand.

I think you are missing the point, Ashley and Kaidan are only human, imagine not seeing the person you love for 2 years and them have them suddenly appear working for some organisation you dont trust at all, then to find out it was that organisation that brought them back to life, i would be a little cautious wouldn't you? From Ash/Kaidan's point of view Cerberus could of done anything to Shepard. Ashley for example couldn't just leave the Alliance and start working for Cerberus, the circumstances are completely different to that of the likes of Tali.

And they are not "sheeps" at all, they are actually thinking and being cautious about this, aswell as being mixed up with tons of emotions, the email from Ashley atleast explains her feelings completely, and if you took the time to know her and her character and know what a deep character she is then you would understand exactly why she does what she does.

[Cutlass Jack]

Antbrawler wrote...

I think you are missing the point, Ashley and Kaidan are only human, imagine not seeing the person you love for 2 years and them have them suddenly appear working for some organisation you dont trust at all, then to find out it was that organisation that brought them back to life, i would be a little cautious wouldn't you? From Ash/Kaidan's point of view Cerberus could of done anything to Shepard. Ashley for example couldn't just leave the Alliance and start working for Cerberus, the circumstances are completely different to that of the likes of Tali.

And they are not "sheeps" at all, they are actually thinking and being cautious about this, aswell as being mixed up with tons of emotions, the email from Ashley atleast explains her feelings completely, and if you took the time to know her and her character and know what a deep character she is then you would understand exactly why she does what she does.

Honestly I think you're still missing the point. Tali had far, far greater reasons for distrust of Cerberus. They attacked her fleet, destroyed a ship. She still trusted and backs you up. Because she follows what her heart says, not what others tell her. If anything, if Ash/Kai had greater reason to trust their heart when they saw you again. (If romance)

Its not like you showed up wearing a Cerberus uniform. Heck if you didn't have Jacob/Miranda in your group at that point, there was no evidence of you working with Cerberus at all right then. But there overwhelming evidence of you showing up at that colony to rescue them from the Collectors and their huge ship.

So yes, they chose to believe what intel they got prior to the mission over your actual actions they witnessed with their own eyes. So I'm going with Sheep, yes. They weren't thinking. At all.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 07 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[BECC4]

I don't think Tali is the best example, she has major hero worship. It isn't a bash at Tali but whether your male or female, romancing her or not look at the things she says, 'what would Shepard do?'. Again I want to reiterate, I like Tali, A LOT but citing her as you only example doesn't really prove the point.

[Cutlass Jack]

BECC4 wrote...

I don't think Tali is the best example, she has major hero worship. It isn't a bash at Tali but whether your male or female, romancing her or not look at the things she says, 'what would Shepard do?'. Again I want to reiterate, I like Tali, A LOT but citing her as you only example doesn't really prove the point.

Actually I disagree completely. Kaidan & Ashley could be actual romantic interests at that point. Giving them far more motivation to trust you than Tali had. You can't discount Tali's feelings for Shepard without also discounting Ash/Kai's. Can't have it both ways.

But look at Garrus or even Wrex for further examples of Aliens who 'get you' better than your former human teammates do.

[BECC4]

I'm not discounting her feelings, I honestly think she worships you as an idol, it wouldn't matter what you did she would still think the sun shines out of your backside which is fine, I like the emotion, all I'm saying that using her as your only example doesn't prove the point you're trying to make.



You mention Wrex and Garrus, Garrus who still wants to blow someones head off after all you've taught him, doesn't show him getting me at all and Wrex doesn't come to help you and couldn't give two f's about Cerberus, doesn't mean he gets you at all.



But the problem is I still disagree that Ash/Kaidan don't trust you, ultimately we'll never agree on the fundemantals that each of us bases our view point on, it doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different, which is what makes the world a fun place to be :-D

[Antbrawler]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Antbrawler wrote...

I think you are missing the point, Ashley and Kaidan are only human, imagine not seeing the person you love for 2 years and them have them suddenly appear working for some organisation you dont trust at all, then to find out it was that organisation that brought them back to life, i would be a little cautious wouldn't you? From Ash/Kaidan's point of view Cerberus could of done anything to Shepard. Ashley for example couldn't just leave the Alliance and start working for Cerberus, the circumstances are completely different to that of the likes of Tali.

And they are not "sheeps" at all, they are actually thinking and being cautious about this, aswell as being mixed up with tons of emotions, the email from Ashley atleast explains her feelings completely, and if you took the time to know her and her character and know what a deep character she is then you would understand exactly why she does what she does.

Honestly I think you're still missing the point. Tali had far, far greater reasons for distrust of Cerberus. They attacked her fleet, destroyed a ship. She still trusted and backs you up. Because she follows what her heart says, not what others tell her. If anything, if Ash/Kai had greater reason to trust their heart when they saw you again. (If romance)

Its not like you showed up wearing a Cerberus uniform. Heck if you didn't have Jacob/Miranda in your group at that point, there was no evidence of you working with Cerberus at all right then. But there overwhelming evidence of you showing up at that colony to rescue them from the Collectors and their huge ship.

So yes, they chose to believe what intel they got prior to the mission over your actual actions they witnessed with their own eyes. So I'm going with Sheep, yes. They weren't thinking. At all.

You make a fair point, but there are plenty of ways to look at it. Obviously the encounter isn't ideal, but i personally can see plenty of legit reasons for what happened, Ashley's email explains her feelings quite clearly, she is quite simply mixed up with emotions etc on Horizon and only being human, i dont believe they are doing what others have told them at all, to me its quite clearly a mix of deep emotions and thoughts.

You have to see this from a writing perspective aswell, there is obviously a reason why Bioware didn't want Ashley/Kaidan and Liara for that matter playing a large role in me2. And i personally feel that their actions have only made the relationship more realistic and interesting.

The fact that there are so many differing opinions and ways of seeing things is what makes the game great and what makes everyones playthroughs unique.

[syllogi]

Tali also gave her father Geth parts, because she trusted him implicitly, and look how well that turned out. Garrus is a "rogue cop" type who quit C-Sec because he didn't like following rules. Neither of them are going to have similar reactions to Cerberus as Ashley and Kaidan. They should know better, however, because they were with you for the Toombs and Kahoku missions. Ash and Kaidan weren't just listening to rumors, they had first hand knowledge that Cerberus is actively EVIL. It's possible to care for and trust someone who is doing something you don't personally agree with. That's where they found themselves after Horizon.

[fortunesque]

I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in ME3 that Ash/Kaidan were trying their hardest to get the Alliance and the Council on Shepard's side. When you talk to TIM first, he says that their files are surprisingly classified. This leads me to believe that they're either new Spectres or they're black-ops.

Keep in mind that the emails could only say so much. There's no way telling who could have been able to read them, so Ash/Kaidan couldn't reveal their current plans.

I think it's a shame that people get completely hung up on what Ash/Kaidan "did" to Shepard. They don't even bother to try to see it they way that Ash/Kaidan see it. Shepard shows up out of the blue two years after being spaced and is with Cerberus, a group that has been known to conduct experiments on aliens as well as humans. They're terrorists.

Like I said, it was very likely that after Horizon, they tried their best to get the Council to see Shepard's story.

[Antbrawler]

fortunesque wrote...
I think it's a shame that people get completely hung up on what Ash/Kaidan "did" to Shepard. They don't even bother to try to see it they way that Ash/Kaidan see it. Shepard shows up out of the blue two years after being spaced and is with Cerberus, a group that has been known to conduct experiments on aliens as well as humans. They're terrorists.
Like I said, it was very likely that after Horizon, they tried their best to get the Council to see Shepard's story.

I agree completely.

[Cutlass Jack]

fortunesque wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in ME3 that Ash/Kaidan were trying their hardest to get the Alliance and the Council on Shepard's side. When you talk to TIM first, he says that their files are surprisingly classified. This leads me to believe that they're either new Spectres or they're black-ops.
Keep in mind that the emails could only say so much. There's no way telling who could have been able to read them, so Ash/Kaidan couldn't reveal their current plans.
I think it's a shame that people get completely hung up on what Ash/Kaidan "did" to Shepard. They don't even bother to try to see it they way that Ash/Kaidan see it. Shepard shows up out of the blue two years after being spaced and is with Cerberus, a group that has been known to conduct experiments on aliens as well as humans. They're terrorists.
Like I said, it was very likely that after Horizon, they tried their best to get the Council to see Shepard's story.

Well like you say directly here, Kaidan/Ashley's current assignment was classified. You had absolutely no way to contact them. Even Anderson won't send a message for you and he's the one who assigned them.

So its a little hard for me to be understanding of them yelling at me for not contacting them when they knew perfectly well it was impossible for me to do so. Even without factoring in the whole 'Coma' thing. It makes it a little hard to see their side of things, since they were being unreasonable.

[fortunesque]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

I wouldn't be surprised if we find out in ME3 that Ash/Kaidan were trying their hardest to get the Alliance and the Council on Shepard's side. When you talk to TIM first, he says that their files are surprisingly classified. This leads me to believe that they're either new Spectres or they're black-ops.
Keep in mind that the emails could only say so much. There's no way telling who could have been able to read them, so Ash/Kaidan couldn't reveal their current plans.
I think it's a shame that people get completely hung up on what Ash/Kaidan "did" to Shepard. They don't even bother to try to see it they way that Ash/Kaidan see it. Shepard shows up out of the blue two years after being spaced and is with Cerberus, a group that has been known to conduct experiments on aliens as well as humans. They're terrorists.
Like I said, it was very likely that after Horizon, they tried their best to get the Council to see Shepard's story.

Well like you say directly here, Kaidan/Ashley's current assignment was classified. You had absolutely no way to contact them. Even Anderson won't send a message for you and he's the one who assigned them.

So its a little hard for me to be understanding of them yelling at me for not contacting them when they knew perfectly well it was impossible for me to do so. Even without factoring in the whole 'Coma' thing. It makes it a little hard to see their side of things, since they were being unreasonable.

They don't know that Anderson didn't tell Shepard what they were doing. The "why didn't you talk to me" just proves how out of the loop they were and how much they were truly kept in the dark.
After all, they didn't know that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus until TIM let it slip. They were very much entitled to ask "what the hell is going on?" and lash out, especially when Shepard says something as lame as "Hey ___, it's been a while. How have you been?"
Their response was completely normal and acceptable, given the circumstances.

[Cutlass Jack]

fortunesque wrote...

They don't know that Anderson didn't tell Shepard what they were doing. The "why didn't you talk to me" just proves how out of the loop they were and how much they were truly kept in the dark.
After all, they didn't know that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus until TIM let it slip. They were very much entitled to ask "what the hell is going on?" and lash out, especially when Shepard says something as lame as "Hey ___, it's been a while. How have you been?"
Their response was completely normal and acceptable, given the circumstances.

How would they not know they were on a classified assignment?  Of course they knew they were on one. Neither one is that stupid. Thats why they didn't tell the colonists the real reason they were there. Of course they'd know that they couldn't be contacted by Shepard.

They don't even have the 'caught by surprise' excuse when Shepard arrives since that was the whole reason they were sent there in the first place.

[fortunesque]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

They don't know that Anderson didn't tell Shepard what they were doing. The "why didn't you talk to me" just proves how out of the loop they were and how much they were truly kept in the dark.
After all, they didn't know that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus until TIM let it slip. They were very much entitled to ask "what the hell is going on?" and lash out, especially when Shepard says something as lame as "Hey ___, it's been a while. How have you been?"
Their response was completely normal and acceptable, given the circumstances.

How would they not know they were on a classified assignment?  Of course they knew they were on one. Neither one is that stupid. Thats why they didn't tell the colonists the real reason they were there. Of course they'd know that they couldn't be contacted by Shepard.

They don't even have the 'caught by surprise' excuse when Shepard arrives since that was the whole reason they were sent there in the first place.

I didn't say they didn't know they were on a classified assignment. I said that they didn't know that Anderson wouldn't tell Shepard if Shepard asked. And I'm pretty sure that if Anderson saw Shepard, he wouldn't tell them because it would interfere with their mission.
You completely missed my point. They *were* caught by surprise. Let's face it; they see Shepard get spaced and suddenly there's rumors that Shepard is alive and working with Cerberus. They probably expected a clone or another monstrosity that Cerberus is known for cooking up. I doubt that they'd expect the real Shepard to be actually there.

[syllogi]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

They don't know that Anderson didn't tell Shepard what they were doing. The "why didn't you talk to me" just proves how out of the loop they were and how much they were truly kept in the dark.
After all, they didn't know that Shepard was alive and with Cerberus until TIM let it slip. They were very much entitled to ask "what the hell is going on?" and lash out, especially when Shepard says something as lame as "Hey ___, it's been a while. How have you been?"
Their response was completely normal and acceptable, given the circumstances.

How would they not know they were on a classified assignment?  Of course they knew they were on one. Neither one is that stupid. Thats why they didn't tell the colonists the real reason they were there. Of course they'd know that they couldn't be contacted by Shepard.

They don't even have the 'caught by surprise' excuse when Shepard arrives since that was the whole reason they were sent there in the first place.

They think that Shepard has been alive for the past two years.  In two years, Shep could have found a way to contact them, classified assignment or not.  I'm sure their email address would have worked while on classified assignment, as well.

Of course, we know that Shepard was not chillin with Cerberus for two years, but Kaidan or Ashley do not.

[Cutlass Jack]

TeenZombie wrote...

They think that Shepard has been alive for the past two years.  In two years, Shep could have found a way to contact them, classified assignment or not.  I'm sure their email address would have worked while on classified assignment, as well.

Of course, we know that Shepard was not chillin with Cerberus for two years, but Kaidan or Ashley do not.

They did know when I told them I was in a coma for that time period. It didn't matter to them. They were uncontactable from exactly the point rumors of your survival surfaced to when you ran into them. Following your 'coma' revelation they should have given you at least some benefit of the doubt.

I mean seriously if you love someone that much you should at least give them a chance to explain themselves before chewing them out. Instead of making you feel like you did something horribly wrong by coming back from the dead to rescue them. Call me old fashioned, but it doesn't get more romantic than that sort of rescue.

[lady winde]

With adrenaline and high emotions I honestly don't see how either of them could have acted otherwise. Suspicions are confirmed, new questions arise, and confusion settles in. Lazarus was something new. Who knew it was possible to bring someone back from being a fried brittle corpse to almost 100% normal? It's something I can see why it'd be so hard for Ash/kai to swallow and start to spew the "why didn't you call me T_T i thoght we had something special </3"



I'm just glad they're going to be around in ME3.



The make up sex better be damn good.

[syllogi]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

They did know when I told them I was in a coma for that time period. It didn't matter to them. They were uncontactable from exactly the point rumors of your survival surfaced to when you ran into them. Following your 'coma' revelation they should have given you at least some benefit of the doubt.

I mean seriously if you love someone that much you should at least give them a chance to explain themselves before chewing them out. Instead of making you feel like you did something horribly wrong by coming back from the dead to rescue them. Call me old fashioned, but it doesn't get more romantic than that sort of rescue.

After Shepard tells them they were dead, Ash or Kaidan don't harp about how they should have contacted them, so I don't see your point in that regard.  In fact, that should be a point in their favor, being told that someone has been brought back from the dead is pretty shocking, so maybe they deserve a break for the next few minutes...

They still see that you are now working for Cerberus, and nothing has given them a reason to trust Cerberus.  Nothing has given *Shepard* a reason to trust Cerberus.  Doing the mission on Freedom's Progress shows that the Collectors are a real threat, but doesn't suddenly redeem Cerberus's past crimes, or explains why Shepard doesn't go straight to the Alliance with that info after that mission.

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
They did know when I told them I was in a coma for that time period. It didn't matter to them. They were uncontactable from exactly the point rumors of your survival surfaced to when you ran into them. Following your 'coma' revelation they should have given you at least some benefit of the doubt.

I mean seriously if you love someone that much you should at least give them a chance to explain themselves before chewing them out. Instead of making you feel like you did something horribly wrong by coming back from the dead to rescue them. Call me old fashioned, but it doesn't get more romantic than that sort of rescue.

But the revelation comes after they tell you off for not contacting them, they're hurt angry and upset, they don't know where you were, they're emotional, are you telling me you've never gone off on one, especially at someone you love only to reaslise you made a mistake?  Because I know I have.  The movie ideal of oooh rescue, swoon, is exactly that, an ideal, I think this was a much more realistic portrayal and if your ready to run off with someone else days later (how long it's been for Shep) because of an argument, I think that's a reflection on Shep not them.

Modifié par BECC4, 07 février 2010 - 07:01 .

[Cutlass Jack]

TeenZombie wrote...

After Shepard tells them they were dead, Ash or Kaidan don't harp about how they should have contacted them, so I don't see your point in that regard.  In fact, that should be a point in their favor, being told that someone has been brought back from the dead is pretty shocking, so maybe they deserve a break for the next few minutes...

They still see that you are now working for Cerberus, and nothing has given them a reason to trust Cerberus.  Nothing has given *Shepard* a reason to trust Cerberus.  Doing the mission on Freedom's Progress shows that the Collectors are a real threat, but doesn't suddenly redeem Cerberus's past crimes, or explains why Shepard doesn't go straight to the Alliance with that info after that mission.

Maybe your conversation ran differently but Ashley got pretty dismissive after the coma line with me. As in 'Thats no excuse.'

Again, they havent seen you working with Cerberus at that point, unless you brought Jacob/Miranda. But even thats a stretch considering neither one of them ever saw the Cerberus logo during our run ins in ME1. What they did see was you coming back from the dead to save them.

And also, not sure about your playthrough, but I did go straight to visit Anderson following Freedom's Progress.

[freelovefreeway]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

They don't even have the 'caught by surprise' excuse when Shepard arrives since that was the whole reason they were sent there in the first place.

Anderson said the mission was to investigate the connection between Cerberus and the missing colonists. It wasn't until after they got sent out that everyone found out Shepard might be affiliated with Cerberus.