107 réponses à ce sujet

[fortunesque]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

They did know when I told them I was in a coma for that time period. It didn't matter to them. They were uncontactable from exactly the point rumors of your survival surfaced to when you ran into them. Following your 'coma' revelation they should have given you at least some benefit of the doubt.

I mean seriously if you love someone that much you should at least give them a chance to explain themselves before chewing them out. Instead of making you feel like you did something horribly wrong by coming back from the dead to rescue them. Call me old fashioned, but it doesn't get more romantic than that sort of rescue.

They dropped the "why didn't you contact me" thing after Shepard said he was in a coma. Neither Ash/Kaidan brought it up after Shepard addressed it. That wasn't the problem they had.

Then came the startling revelation that Shepard joined with Cerberus when his mindset was a few days after the crash. Your initial reaction would be, "maybe I never knew you". Tali had the benefit of seeing Shepard briefly before she was recruited. She had time to process all of the information. Ash/Kaidan both say "I never expected the rumors to be true". So, they were completely startled.

As far as the 'chance to explain' part, I blame this on the writing. The responses that Shepard gave were very-half assed. They were quick, single sentences. It boiled down to this:
Shepard: Hi. Sup?
Ashidan: Wtfs?? You were alive this whole time and you didn't contact me?
Shepard: Nah. I was dead. Cerberus made me undead.
Ashidan: Cerberus? The terrorists Cerberus? So the rumors were true?
Shepard: The same terrorists. But they're good now somehow.
Ashidan: Maybe you feel like you owe them. They're terrorists, Shepard.
Shepard: Yah. You should join me. We're gettin' stuff done.
Ashidan: You... have gone nuts.... I'm not going with you. Goodbye.

[Cutlass Jack]

BECC4 wrote...

But the revelation comes after they tell you off for not contacting them, they're hurt angry and upset, they don't know where you were, they're emotional, are you telling me you've never gone off on one, especially at someone you love only to reaslise you made a mistake?  Because I know I have.  The movie ideal of oooh rescue, swoon, is exactly that, an ideal, I think this was a much more realistic portrayal and if your ready to run off with someone else days later (how long it's been for Shep) because of an argument, I think that's a reflection on Shep not them.

Hey I can't speak for you, but if the woman I loved came back from the dead to save me when I needed her most, I'd do the 'Tali Pounce' first and ask questions between coming up for air.

[Cutlass Jack]

freelovefreeway wrote...

Anderson said the mission was to investigate the connection between Cerberus and the missing colonists. It wasn't until after they got sent out that everyone found out Shepard might be affiliated with Cerberus.

You didn't listen to TIM's debriefing? He purposely leaked info about you being alive, working with Cerberus and the collectors/missing colonists. Purposely so they'd send Ashley/Kaidan to serve as bait. If you ask Anderson about it afterwards, he confirms this.

Of course, TIM's motives for doing this was to get you to break off all emotional ties so you'd focus on his mission. Which is exactly why you can't trust Cerberus, and exactly why my Shepard put the priority on recruiting non-Cerberus people he knew he could trust to watch his back. Tali & Garrus answered that call. Kai/Ash did not.

[lady winde]

fortunesque wrote...


As far as the 'chance to explain' part, I blame this on the writing. The responses that Shepard gave were very-half assed. They were quick, single sentences. It boiled down to this:
Shepard: Hi. Sup?
Ashidan: Wtfs?? You were alive this whole time and you didn't contact me?
Shepard: Nah. I was dead. Cerberus made me undead.
Ashidan: Cerberus? The terrorists Cerberus? So the rumors were true?
Shepard: The same terrorists. But they're good now somehow.
Ashidan: Maybe you feel like you owe them. They're terrorists, Shepard.
Shepard: Yah. You should join me. We're gettin' stuff done.
Ashidan: You... have gone nuts.... I'm not going with you. Goodbye.

LOL What a lovely paraphrase!

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Hey I can't speak for you, but if the woman I loved came back from the dead to save me when I needed her most, I'd do the 'Tali Pounce' first and ask questions between coming up for air.

Hmmm, I may be wrong but I get the feeling Ash was never really your first choice

[fortunesque]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

freelovefreeway wrote...

Anderson said the mission was to investigate the connection between Cerberus and the missing colonists. It wasn't until after they got sent out that everyone found out Shepard might be affiliated with Cerberus.

You didn't listen to TIM's debriefing? He purposely leaked info about you being alive, working with Cerberus and the collectors/missing colonists. Purposely so they'd send Ashley/Kaidan to serve as bait. If you ask Anderson about it afterwards, he confirms this.

Of course, TIM's motives for doing this was to get you to break off all emotional ties so you'd focus on his mission. Which is exactly why you can't trust Cerberus, and exactly why my Shepard put the priority on recruiting non-Cerberus people he knew he could trust to watch his back. Tali & Garrus answered that call. Kai/Ash did not.

Yet at the same time, this proves Ashidan right. Cerberus cannot be trusted at all.

Also, keep in mind that Tali and Garrus were put in by TIM as possible recruits. Why? Because he didn't feel like he needed to worry about them messing his plans up. Ashidan would have fought TIM as much as possible, as well as Liara. TIM wants Shepard to drop all ties with the Alliance so that Shepard has nowhere to go but him. He wants to use Shepard, and acquiring Tali and Garrus are the means by which TIM presumes to gain Shepard's trust. He intentionally left Ashidan out of the dossiers because he wants to leave the Alliance out. He let it slip that Shepard was with Cerberus so that Shepard would have nowhere to go but with Cerberus.

It was a manipulative plan on TIM's part to keep Ashidan out of Shepard's life, and many people fell for it.

[Antbrawler]

BECC4 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Hey I can't speak for you, but if the woman I loved came back from the dead to save me when I needed her most, I'd do the 'Tali Pounce' first and ask questions between coming up for air.

Hmmm, I may be wrong but I get the feeling Ash was never really your first choice

I got the same feeling, it doesn't seem like this guy is going to like her no matter what, oh well.. his loss i say.

[BECC4]

fortunesque wrote...
As far as the 'chance to explain' part, I blame this on the writing. The responses that Shepard gave were very-half assed. They were quick, single sentences. It boiled down to this:
Shepard: Hi. Sup?
Ashidan: Wtfs?? You were alive this whole time and you didn't contact me?
Shepard: Nah. I was dead. Cerberus made me undead.
Ashidan: Cerberus? The terrorists Cerberus? So the rumors were true?
Shepard: The same terrorists. But they're good now somehow.
Ashidan: Maybe you feel like you owe them. They're terrorists, Shepard.
Shepard: Yah. You should join me. We're gettin' stuff done.
Ashidan: You... have gone nuts.... I'm not going with you. Goodbye.

Love this made me LMAO

[Cutlass Jack]

Antbrawler wrote...

BECC4 wrote...
Hmmm, I may be wrong but I get the feeling Ash was never really your first choice

I got the same feeling, it doesn't seem like this guy is going to like her no matter what, oh well.. his loss i say.

Actually you'd be wrong. Ashley was one of my favorite ME1 characters. If I hated her, I wouldn't have cared at all how she acted at Horizon.

I'd have been the first to agree you can't trust Cerberus, if she actually bothered to ask. Precisely why I wanted her to join. Ashley was someone I should have been able to trust to watch my back. I didn't trust them, but I thought I could trust her.

It was a shame the Cerberus 'alliance' was necessary, but my trip to the Citadel let me know precisely how much help from my old employers I could expect to get. But based on their track record from ME1, Ashley should have known that too. She was the first to say how you can't trust politicians.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 07 février 2010 - 07:41 .

[BECC4]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Antbrawler wrote...

BECC4 wrote...
Hmmm, I may be wrong but I get the feeling Ash was never really your first choice

I got the same feeling, it doesn't seem like this guy is going to like her no matter what, oh well.. his loss i say.

Actually you'd be wrong. Ashley was one of my favorite ME1 characters. If I hated her, I wouldn't have cared at all how she acted at Horizon.

I'd have been the first to agree you can't trust Cerberus, if she actually bothered to ask. Precisely why I wanted her to join. Ashley was someone I should have been able to trust to watch my back. I didn't trust them, but I thought I could trust her.

It was a shame the Cerberus 'alliance' was necessary, but my trip to the Citadel let me know precisely how much help from my old employers I could expect to get. But based on their track record from ME1, Ashley should have known that too. She was the first to say how you can't trust politicians.

I stand corrected, does suprise me you're being so hard on her, I still don't think she's given you any indication that she doesn't trust you but it's all in the perspective I suppose.

How will you feel if she comes back to you in ME3?  Have totally blown her off or could you see your Shep forgiving her?  I'm genuinely interested on your perspective.

[Eumerin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Honestly I think you're still missing the point. Tali had far, far greater reasons for distrust of Cerberus. They attacked her fleet, destroyed a ship. She still trusted and backs you up. Because she follows what her heart says, not what others tell her. If anything, if Ash/Kai had greater reason to trust their heart when they saw you again. (If romance)

Tali ALSO first finishes her assignment, and then gets permission from the Migrant Fleet (which results in that e-mail that you get from her father warning you that nothing bad had better happen to Tali OR ELSE; the fact that she got permission is mentioned in the lead-in to the loyalty quest, if you ask her about the possibility that the charges are the result of associating with Cerberus).  So Tali only joins you once she's freed from her immediate responsibilities, and she still gets permission.

Ash/Kaiden can't get free of their immediate responsibilities.  They were sent to Horizon to evaluate the situation and report back.  At the end of the conversation with them they've evaluated the situation but they still need to report back.  Unlike Tali they still have responsibilities to their superiors that need to be dealt with.

[Cutlass Jack]

BECC4 wrote...

I stand corrected, does suprise me you're being so hard on her, I still don't think she's given you any indication that she doesn't trust you but it's all in the perspective I suppose.

How will you feel if she comes back to you in ME3?  Have totally blown her off or could you see your Shep forgiving her?  I'm genuinely interested on your perspective.

Well its complicated In my 'main' playthrough, there was some flirting with Ashley but it never developed into more than that. Unfortunately the game does not actually recognize degrees of relationship, ME2 acts like they slept together when in fact it never happened. But he did consider Ashley one of his best friends next to Tali. So he felt pretty backstabbed at Horizon regardless. The Ashley he thought he knew should have known him better.

Yeah That Shep will ultimately forgive her, because he's about the nicest guy in the universe. But there will be no 'relationship' there. That ship sailed long ago. Whether or not he actually wants her back on his team will depend entirely where the story goes from here. I could see that going either way.

[Cutlass Jack]

Eumerin wrote...

Tali ALSO first finishes her assignment, and then gets permission from the Migrant Fleet (which results in that e-mail that you get from her father warning you that nothing bad had better happen to Tali OR ELSE; the fact that she got permission is mentioned in the lead-in to the loyalty quest, if you ask her about the possibility that the charges are the result of associating with Cerberus).  So Tali only joins you once she's freed from her immediate responsibilities, and she still gets permission.

Ash/Kaiden can't get free of their immediate responsibilities.  They were sent to Horizon to evaluate the situation and report back.  At the end of the conversation with them they've evaluated the situation but they still need to report back.  Unlike Tali they still have responsibilities to their superiors that need to be dealt with.

I actually had no problems with them going back to finish their duties. Only that they didn't give me a little more credit where Cerberus was concerned given our past history. There were ways that conversation could have gone more pleasantly and still had the same end result.

[Kyria Nyriese]

Kaidan and Ashley are core military. While Ashley may have written a better email, I think Kaidan's was more in line with the real Kaidan. Heck if someone I loved and thought was dead just popped up in front of me not only alive, but working with a terrorist group, I'd have my own doubts about their motivations and sanity. So I can understand where Kaidan is coming from (I have no playthroughs with Ashley as a LI).



Kaidan doesn't know that you haven't been corrupted and changed by Cerberus, think about your own reaction to working for Cerberus. I hate it, I spent the entire game wanting to tell Cerberus to stuff it. The end when I do get to tell TIM to stuff it is the best part of the entire game, I can't stand Cerberus, and the fact that you are forced to work with them this entire game to me is just a slap in the face.



So yes, I'm loyal to Kaidan, I understand how he feels to some extent, it's been 2 years for him, it's been a few months for Shepard. Also remember that Tali and Garrus are much more of the whatever it takes to accomplish our goals than Kaidan was. Kaidan was not about to compromise who he was for anything.



Just my 2 cents anyway.

[ODST 3]

Agreed, Kaidan's was much less committal. Ashley made it clear she still loves me.

[Eumerin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

[Well its complicated In my 'main' playthrough, there was some flirting with Ashley but it never developed into more than that. Unfortunately the game does not actually recognize degrees of relationship, ME2 acts like they slept together when in fact it never happened. But he did consider Ashley one of his best friends next to Tali. So he felt pretty backstabbed at Horizon regardless. The Ashley he thought he knew should have known him better.

I believe that the trigger is whether or not you get approached on the trip to Ilos.  When your LI proposes consummating the relationship, turning him or her down doesn't end the relationship.  It merely indicates (and iirc the conversation option suggests this) that Shepard has decided that the time isn't right for it.  There's still a definite relationship in place.  Otherwise you never would have been approached in the first place.

[cpolisch]

Default137 wrote...

>_>?

I liked Kaidens letter alot more then I liked Ashleys, maybe it was because I wasn't romancing her, but she was still a complete and utter ****, even in email form, while Kaiden was falling over himself trying to explain what happened.

I agree, I thought Kaidan was more sincere because he was fumbling through things trying to figure out what to say.  Ashley still just came across as a *****.

[ratzerman]

Shavon wrote...

I think, OP if you understood Kaidan's character, it wouldn't make him look sp bad. They're both given the same amount of treatment, imo.

QFT! 

Furthermore, isn't it about 2 years too late for this argument?  The devs have already reduced Ash and Kaidan to craptastic cameos.  If there's any chance of getting them (and Liara) back as squaddies in ME3, we need to present a unified front.

Modifié par ratzerman, 07 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[Antbrawler]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Eumerin wrote...

Tali ALSO first finishes her assignment, and then gets permission from the Migrant Fleet (which results in that e-mail that you get from her father warning you that nothing bad had better happen to Tali OR ELSE; the fact that she got permission is mentioned in the lead-in to the loyalty quest, if you ask her about the possibility that the charges are the result of associating with Cerberus).  So Tali only joins you once she's freed from her immediate responsibilities, and she still gets permission.

Ash/Kaiden can't get free of their immediate responsibilities.  They were sent to Horizon to evaluate the situation and report back.  At the end of the conversation with them they've evaluated the situation but they still need to report back.  Unlike Tali they still have responsibilities to their superiors that need to be dealt with.

I actually had no problems with them going back to finish their duties. Only that they didn't give me a little more credit where Cerberus was concerned given our past history. There were ways that conversation could have gone more pleasantly and still had the same end result.

Ashley does kind of give you some "credit" where Cerberus was concerned in the email, its hard to say the right things in an encounter like that.

[jlb524]

fortunesque wrote...

As far as the 'chance to explain' part, I blame this on the writing. The responses that Shepard gave were very-half assed. They were quick, single sentences. It boiled down to this:
Shepard: Hi. Sup?
Ashidan: Wtfs?? You were alive this whole time and you didn't contact me?
Shepard: Nah. I was dead. Cerberus made me undead.
Ashidan: Cerberus? The terrorists Cerberus? So the rumors were true?
Shepard: The same terrorists. But they're good now somehow.
Ashidan: Maybe you feel like you owe them. They're terrorists, Shepard.
Shepard: Yah. You should join me. We're gettin' stuff done.
Ashidan: You... have gone nuts.... I'm not going with you. Goodbye.

This is sad, but true.  As I've mentioned other places, I have no problem with Kaidan or Ashley or Liara's dialog, just Shepards.  It's like they purposedly made Shepard seem to  not care about the old LI's...

I wonder why?  

[fortunesque]

jlb524 wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

As far as the 'chance to explain' part, I blame this on the writing. The responses that Shepard gave were very-half assed. They were quick, single sentences. It boiled down to this:
Shepard: Hi. Sup?
Ashidan: Wtfs?? You were alive this whole time and you didn't contact me?
Shepard: Nah. I was dead. Cerberus made me undead.
Ashidan: Cerberus? The terrorists Cerberus? So the rumors were true?
Shepard: The same terrorists. But they're good now somehow.
Ashidan: Maybe you feel like you owe them. They're terrorists, Shepard.
Shepard: Yah. You should join me. We're gettin' stuff done.
Ashidan: You... have gone nuts.... I'm not going with you. Goodbye.

This is sad, but true.  As I've mentioned other places, I have no problem with Kaidan or Ashley or Liara's dialog, just Shepards.  It's like they purposedly made Shepard seem to  not care about the old LI's...

I wonder why?  

"We expect that a lot of people are going to cheat." "The new characters are just so emotionally engaging"

[defenestrated]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I actually had no problems with them going back to finish their duties. Only that they didn't give me a little more credit where Cerberus was concerned given our past history. There were ways that conversation could have gone more pleasantly and still had the same end result.

Garrus and Tali actually get to see Shepard in action with a Cerberus
team, whereas Kaidan and Ashley only see the aftermath. They're also
not privy to rumors implicating Cerberus in the colony abductions and
the rumors about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus. The game sets Kaidan
and Ashely up with more crap to get over than Garrus and Tali have, even with the Cerberus/Flotilla debackle that soured Tali towards Cerberus.

[Nyx]

defenestrated wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I actually had no problems with them going back to finish their duties. Only that they didn't give me a little more credit where Cerberus was concerned given our past history. There were ways that conversation could have gone more pleasantly and still had the same end result.

Garrus and Tali actually get to see Shepard in action with a Cerberus
team, whereas Kaidan and Ashley only see the aftermath. They're also
not privy to rumors implicating Cerberus in the colony abductions and
the rumors about Shepard's involvement with Cerberus. The game sets Kaidan
and Ashely up with more crap to get over than Garrus and Tali have, even with the Cerberus/Flotilla debackle that soured Tali towards Cerberus.

Yeah, it's important to also understand that Cerberus, as a group, means much more to humanity than the alien races. They're known for their ruthless methods in progressing the 'betterment' of mankind by leaving numerous innocents dead, tortured, trapped, or permanently altered. Cerberus is not forgiving or respectful of individual rights to life & freedom, so other humans have a reason to be more weary of them. I'm sure Ash & Kaiden would have been willing to put aside their feelings if this was another organization, but I can understand that when the credibility of a movement -- which has performed more atrocies than good -- is in question, preliminary caution is advisable. Cerebus is fairly new to other colonies, and it will be awhile before they hold the same attitude.

Modifié par Nyx.Aeterna, 07 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[Cutlass Jack]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Tali witnessed everything Ash/Kaidan did in ME1 and had the added bonus of having direct experience with Cerberus attacking her fleet. Further, the mission you meet her at is highly suspect as to what Cerberus' motives are (as shown in the two different ways you can deal with the Quarian). Miranda gives some dialogue that doesn't help any either. Still, she trusts you, even when her team chooses not to. I think she had much more to deal with, especially since she hadn't heard even a slightest rumor you lived in advance. It was a complete surprise, but still she trusts you without question.

Meanwhile I can't see what better action Kay/Ash need than you driving off the Collector ship. That was huge, and they were victims of the attack. The results of your action were plain to see, and based on when the timing of their appearance, they had to be at least recovered enough to see you shooting the ship. It really should have quelled any doubts they were feeling prior to that.

And again, there wasn't any proof you were even allied with Cerberus when she started chewing you out. Its not like you lead a charge of Cerberus altered Thorian Creepers to save the colony. (Or other horrid project they worked on in 1).

Better still, if you bring Garrus to Horizon. That should be a huge clue that things aren't what they seem, and yet she yells at you about that too. Funny, yet sad.