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[Nyx]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

Tali witnessed everything Ash/Kaidan did in ME1 and had the added bonus of having direct experience with Cerberus attacking her fleet. Further, the mission you meet her at is highly suspect as to what Cerberus' motives are (as shown in the two different ways you can deal with the Quarian). Miranda gives some dialogue that doesn't help any either. Still, she trusts you, even when her team chooses not to. I think she had much more to deal with, especially since she hadn't heard even a slightest rumor you lived in advance. It was a complete surprise, but still she trusts you without question.

Meanwhile I can't see what better action Kay/Ash need than you driving off the Collector ship. That was huge, and they were victims of the attack. The results of your action were plain to see, and based on when the timing of their appearance, they had to be at least recovered enough to see you shooting the ship. It really should have quelled any doubts they were feeling prior to that.

And again, there wasn't any proof you were even allied with Cerberus when she started chewing you out. Its not like you lead a charge of Cerberus altered Thorian Creepers to save the colony. (Or other horrid project they worked on in 1).

Better still, if you bring Garrus to Horizon. That should be a huge clue that things aren't what they seem, and yet she yells at you about that too. Funny, yet sad.

Then, pretty much. Disagreement.  

Ash & Kaiden are also memebers of the Alliance (before & after ME1), and it would be strange if they haven't at least encountered Cerberus more than once -- sans Shepard -- in their military career . Even if they did not, Cerberus has already gained a 'reputation' with the Alliance, and this will likely predisposed their servicemen towards a certain bias. And the events in ME1 barely allows them to quell this notion. Miranda's comment on Horizon seems to confirm these prejudices.

Ultimately, discrimination occurs over a period of time, and as much trouble Cerberus has caused, the tension between the quarian and the geth is far greater. Their encounter with Cerberus is a merely one-time incident in contrast to their lengthy history with the geth. Even the player can observe how passionately Tali responds to Legion's actions, than her aloof disregard for Ceberus. ("You can't let this happen, Shepard. I trusted you, and I worked with a geth on a team, but this is too much!")

It is all about a matter of degree. If you target each character at the pivotal moment that is most important to them, they will all respond with strong convinction against your choices. And you have to give them space to recoup and think about what you've said. However, this is made easier when there are fresh shared experiences to account for --- like in Garrus' loyalty mission.

Modifié par Nyx.Aeterna, 07 février 2010 - 11:25 .

[defenestrated]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

We're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

One of the fun things about this game is seeing the different ways people react to the characters and events. No one is definitively right.

Except for Blasto.

Tali witnessed everything Ash/Kaidan did in ME1 and had the added bonus of having direct experience with Cerberus attacking her fleet. Further, the mission you meet her at is highly suspect as to what Cerberus' motives are (as shown in the two different ways you can deal with the Quarian). Miranda gives some dialogue that doesn't help any either. Still, she trusts you, even when her team chooses not to. I think she had much more to deal with, especially since she hadn't heard even a slightest rumor you lived in advance. It was a complete surprise, but still she trusts you without question.

See, I took the Cerberus/Flotilla debacle with a grain of salt. Throught most of ME2, the really nasty stuff Cerberus did was perpetrated by small cells, the larger organization wasn't aware, and when they became aware they shut it down. Whatever happened with the Quarians, Miranda knew about it and disputed the Quarian version of events. Very different from Miranda's reaction to Jack's backstory, for instance. And let's face it, the Quarians have a history of screwing themselves over. I don't take that incident very seriously but YMMV. Same goes for how you interpret Garrus and Tali not hearing the rumors leaked by TIM about Cerberus and Shepard - to me, that means those characters had to wade through less crap.

Meanwhile I can't see what better action Kay/Ash need than you driving off the Collector ship. That was huge, and they were victims of the attack. The results of your action were plain to see, and based on when the timing of their appearance, they had to be at least recovered enough to see you shooting the ship. It really should have quelled any doubts they were feeling prior to that.

Rationally, perhaps, and once Kaidan and Ashley have time to think about it they send that message. Emotionally, I think the outburst makes sense.

And again, there wasn't any proof you were even allied with Cerberus when she started chewing you out. Its not like you lead a charge of Cerberus altered Thorian Creepers to save the colony. (Or other horrid project they worked on in 1).

But initially all they're chewing you out for is not contacting them.

[SweetiePea]

I'm surprised that anyone finds Kaidan/Ashley's reaction strange. I mean, put this in real-world terms. If someone from your country's army started working for an organization that is seen by that army as a terrorist organization, would you really be surprised if their friends neglected to jump at the chance to join up with that organization? It makes perfect sense to me that Kai/Ash would have a problem with Shep working for Cerberus. I had a problem with it. It's also worth noting that Ash/Kai are not privy to the same info that Shep has. They don't know about the Collectors. This is all stuff that Cerberus is more or less keeping under wraps. At any rate, I totally respect Ash/Kai for refusing to join Shep. I'm also in the camp that doesn't want my love interest blindly following me. I'd hope that if my husband thought I was doing something as crazy as it appeared Shep was doing, he'd try his best to talk some sense into me.



As for the e-mails, I disagree there as well. I saw Ash's reaction and e-mail via my hubby's playthrough, and I felt that both her e-mail and Kai's were equally worthy. I interpreted the part about the doctor as a sort of compliment to Shep. I mean, the two of them weren't even together for very long and, yet, it took him two years to get to a point where he felt he *might* be ready to move on. Don't forget that the e-mail also says that his friends "talked him into" going. That doesn't sound to me like he was racing right out to start seeing other woman. That particular part of the e-mail made me feel that he was telling Shep that she's so amazing and so far above any other woman that he couldn't even think about a doctor with whom he wasn't even serious to begin with.



As for the ending, I also looked at that from a different perspective. Yes, I think Kai doesn't know what to think, but I also think he's worried about what Shep thinks. I took his hesitation at the end not just as a sign of his own mixed up emotions, but also as a sign that he fears maybe Shep has moved on. She's working with Cerberus and she didn't contact him. If I were him, I wouldn't exactly be feeling like that equated an excellent chance for me to get back together with her.



I have faith that all of this will be worked out nicely in ME3. I also find it kind of funny that the devs assumed everyone would be anxious to cheat on their ME1 LI. I couldn't have been less interested in romancing any of my companions. My Shep was all about getting the mission done and then getting as far, far away from Ceberus as possible.

[Nyx]

defenestrated wrote...

Same goes for how you interpret Garrus and Tali not hearing the rumors leaked by TIM about Cerberus and Shepard - to me, that means those characters had to wade through less crap.

SweetiePea wrote...

It's also worth noting that Ash/Kai are not privy to the same info that Shep has. They don't know about the Collectors. This is all stuff that Cerberus is more or less keeping under wraps. At any rate, I totally respect Ash/Kai for refusing to join Shep. I'm also in the camp that doesn't want my love interest blindly following me.

Agreed.

I think Kaiden and Ashley's loyalty against Garrus/Tali's would be easier to determine if they were all placed into a more equal playing field -- taking into account the level of information provided, the type of opponent, any recent experiences with Shepard, etc. It's a tough call, but situations like Tali vs. the Geth, Wrex vs. the Genophage, Garrus vs. Sidonis seem to be fairer testaments. When you're not personally affected by the events, the bigger picture becomes more evident because there are less details (and distractions) to consider. 

Modifié par Nyx.Aeterna, 08 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[stillnotking]

The "blindly following" thing is a pure canard. No one wants Ash or Kaidan to "blindly" follow Shepard. They just saw the Collector ship for themselves! Blindness isn't joining up with Shepard after that... blindness is NOT joining up with him. So they go back to the Alliance, file a report, and twiddle their thumbs somewhere while Shep and his LOYAL crewmates save the galaxy... again. All because they're butthurt. Now that reaction may be understandable, and it may be in character, but the character it reveals is pretty poor.

All I can say is that if they're squadmates in ME3, they better not be required squadmates. If Shepard has any sense he'll just about trust them to clean the toilets on the Normandy III.

[BECC4]

stillnotking wrote...

The "blindly following" thing is a pure canard. No one wants Ash or Kaidan to "blindly" follow Shepard. They just saw the Collector ship for themselves! Blindness isn't joining up with Shepard after that... blindness is NOT joining up with him. So they go back to the Alliance, file a report, and twiddle their thumbs somewhere while Shep and his LOYAL crewmates save the galaxy... again. All because they're butthurt. Now that reaction may be understandable, and it may be in character, but the character it reveals is pretty poor.
All I can say is that if they're squadmates in ME3, they better not be required squadmates. If Shepard has any sense he'll just about trust them to clean the toilets on the Normandy III.

 
You have no idea what they're doing back at the Alliance, they think you can get the job done, the e-mail says as much, wait til ME3 before you make a sweeping judgement.  The solution to every problem is not to charge in guns blazing, if Shep is right (we know that, they only suspect)  Shep is gonna need some support back home, cutting all ties with the Alliance is prob not a great idea anyway and if they think Shep can get the job done, wouldn't you want the life you signed up for ie the Alliance to be an option after it was all over? I think that they're gonna be the ones to start rallying that support and it's extremely selfish and short sighted of Shep to expect them to desert their obligations.
 
If you hate them and don't want them back that's fine but some of us do want them back so hopefully we'll get the choice and then we can all be happy.

[hawat333]

Default137 wrote...

>_>?

I liked Kaidens letter alot more then I liked Ashleys, maybe it was because I wasn't romancing her, but she was still a complete and utter ****, even in email form, while Kaiden was falling over himself trying to explain what happened.

Interesting, for me she was nice and worried about the dangers that l get myself into.
Maybe it's affected by how you treated her in the first game?

[SweetiePea]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Yes, Kai/Ash saw the Collector ship. The rest of the Alliance, however, did not. Don't forget that the reason this whole problem exists is because the Alliance suspects that Cerberus has something to do with the missing colonists, ergo they suspect Shepard may also be involved. Now that Ash/Kai knows that this isn't the case, s/he has an obligation to report back to the Alliance and try to get the truth out there. If s/he doesn't do this, who will? Ash/Kai is the *only* official member of the Alliance at this point who now knows exactly what's going on.



Even so, this still doesn't mean that s/he is now convinced that everything Shep's doing is the right thing. Sure, s/he now knows that Shep is trying to stop the Collectors. This does not, however, necessarily mean that the means justify the end. Look at TIM. He wants Shep to save the Collector base. Don't you think that maybe Kai/Ash has reason to think that Cerberus might not be going about this the right way? I think that you also need to ask why, exactly, TIM is keeping all of this Collector info to himself. If his interest is truly to save humanity, shouldn't he clue the Alliance in to what's going on so that the military can join the effort?