17 réponses à ce sujet

[lessthanjake9]

So the huge problem with the Vanguard is the fact that charging really just totally leaves you open to too much damage from nearby enemies.

However, I was thinking that adding Dominate as a bonus power (or bringing Morinth around, OR taking Tali/Legion on missions against synthetics) could alleviate this problem a great deal.

The thing is that a Dominated enemy will draw fire away from you, allowing you to charge without drawing all nearby fire after you do so. This SHOULD greatly increase your survivability when you Charge.

I am not sure whether it is better to use Dominate before Charge or vice versa, but either way, I think this is a functional way of chaining together massive damage from Charge without taking too much damage when you use it.

You dont necessarily have to take Dominate as your actual Vanguard's bonus skill, as long as you bring Morinth around with you. This seems okay to me, because even if you took Dominate yourself, you'd still need either Tali or Legion to do this sort of tactic on missions against synthetics.
 
In fact, it might work better with a teammate doing the domination/hacking. There would be no cooldown to deal with. Just Dominate/Hack an enemy with your ally, and then Charge into the fray yourself right away. Get Warp Ammo or something to make your up close weapon damage huge.


On higher difficulties, the enemies will have defenses. This means you'll have to strip off those defenses before you dominate/hack. That's not a huge deal though, because you only need to strip off the defenses of one enemy before you do this. That should take very little time.

This tactic will also work to some degree with drones as well. If you have Tali and/or Legion in your squad, you can draw fire away from your Charging Vanguard with drones. By the time an enemy takes the drone down, your Vanguard will be Charging him and kill him.

Do you guys think this would work? I do not think it's optimal or anything compared to other classes, but it seems like these methods of drawing fire away from you could allow your Vanguard to do huge damage while not taking too much damage.

[_Dannok1234]

All a vanguard needs on insanity is: Heavy Charge, Inferno Ammo/AP Ammo, Champion/Destroyer, Scimitar,or the krogan shotgun, or Vindicator.



Sinosleep (he has loads, all good. He's the king)







Here's one of mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06150h5G0Bo



RamenC's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpzy9WUzpR4

[lessthanjake9]

I mean, I realize it is possible to do a Vanguard on Insanity. Any build CAN get through insanity. What I am trying to do is create something that is actually pretty good on insanity, rather than simply viable do to the very high skill of the player. I watched the first video there, and that was really good, but he did almost die a couple times. I think a more methodical approach to it, using squad members to strip defenses and then Dominate would yield something pretty powerful.

Modifié par lessthanjake9, 07 février 2010 - 10:32 .

[_Dannok1234]

Sure you can slow it down and play it safer. But say if you watch my vid on the final mission. I do die a few times, but thats part of the high risk. But you cannot say that charge isn't powerful. Personally I go with Area Reave these days after finding out that Barrier/Geth shield etc, do not stack with the bonus from Heavy Charge.



Take a few minutes and watch some more of Sinosleep for example, he does it much more fluid then I do. You'll see that it's not that you "can" get through on insanity, but that you rush through.

[lessthanjake9]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Sure you can slow it down and play it safer. But say if you watch my vid on the final mission. I do die a few times, but thats part of the high risk. But you cannot say that charge isn't powerful. Personally I go with Area Reave these days after finding out that Barrier/Geth shield etc, do not stack with the bonus from Heavy Charge.

Take a few minutes and watch some more of Sinosleep for example, he does it much more fluid then I do. You'll see that it's not that you "can" get through on insanity, but that you rush through.

I watched all the videos and its impressive and all (all of those guys, including you, are obviously very very good players), but I am just looking for a way to take some of the risk away from the Vanguard without losing the reward. Using Dominate/AI Hacking/Combat Drones with your squad seems like a way to minimize the crossfire you will be placed into when you do use Charge. If you use a squad member to do that stuff, you can really be doing the same damage, just as fast as before, except that you'll want to strip one enemy of his defenses before you start charging (but that takes very little time).

I mean, let's say you've got two enemies near each other. If you charge one, the other will start owning you from short distance. You could easily die. Now, of course, you get the extra shielding so a good player should be able to stay alive to charge again. It's certainly not an impossible situation. But if you lay a drone on one guy and then charge the other, you can kill the guy you charged while the other guy is stunned and fighting the drone. Next thing he knows, you're charging him too and he's dead.

If you are against maybe like 4 guys that are near each other, using charge would be quite dangerous. But you can just strip the defenses off of one of the guys and Dominate it. You will be able to Charge and kill multiple guys without even really being damaged since they won't be attacking you. And this doesn't have to take away from your Vanguard's damage since the Defense Stripping + Dominate stuff can really be handled by squad members. Thus it can happen with pretty much equal quickness

[_Dannok1234]

It does sound like interesting idea, it should indeed make it safer to charge around. But if I'm going to have one of those skills on the vanguard it self it would have to be dominate. The cooldown on the drone would be too long I'm thinking, besides it's a good excuse to bring Tali.

[stillnotking]

Trouble is, from the videos I've seen Vanguards really need their CDs for Charge. I'm not sure you would gain as much by throwing a Dominate as you lose by having to stand there for an extra five seconds.

[_Dannok1234]

I tried it a little having dominate on the vanguard. It's a really powerful ability no question about that. But you sort of end up using that instead of charge I think, or at least I did. It was one or the other only rarely charging after the dominate. But the drone thing works a treat. So bringing Tali/legion, for anyone that want to soften things up a bit should work.

[Kompaniet gibb]

It's a cool idea bringing Morinth along atleast. Should up survivability by alot and I find it hillarious to Dominate foes also. You're probably right that a squadmate with dominate/Hack is easier to cope with since I atleast use Charge on every cooldown.



On a related note, how exactly do you get Morinth instead of Samara?

[Kronner]

Kompaniet gibb wrote...

On a related note, how exactly do you get Morinth instead of Samara?

You have to kill Samara during her loyalty mission.

[Jonathan Shepard]

Here's the thing though, when playing later in the game, at level 26 on only veteran, my Heavy Charge did almost no damage. Is this a bug of some sort? Because eventually I just didn't even use it anymore, so I rebuilt my character with charge at only level two.



I don't see how this ability becomes useful after level 20 at all.

[RamsenC]

The problem with getting dominate is you are wasting a cooldown on something that isn't charge. Could be interesting if you just bring Morinth everywhere, but she comes late in the game.

[stillnotking]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Here's the thing though, when playing later in the game, at level 26 on only veteran, my Heavy Charge did almost no damage. Is this a bug of some sort? Because eventually I just didn't even use it anymore, so I rebuilt my character with charge at only level two.

I don't see how this ability becomes useful after level 20 at all.

I've heard that before... I don't think it is a bug, I think the damage just scales badly.  Bear in mind that having Heavy Charge at level 10 puts you well ahead of where the game "expects" you to be in terms of skill points (if you use auto level up it spreads your points more or less evenly).

[lessthanjake9]

There were a few posts that said that putting Dominate on a Vanguard would eat up all the cooldowns and stop them from Charging. First off, I generally agree. I think that a Vanguard COULD take Dominate and aim to use it once or twice in a battle in times right before charging somewhere with a particularly large amount of guys.

HOWEVER, the cooldown issue would definitely exist. But this is why I have been saying that it is probably best to simply use teammates for this stuff. Strip the defenses of one guy. Have Morinth throw down a Dominate. Charge in right away. Keep Charging. That should work really well. Similarly, against synthetics, have Tali/Legion throw down an AI Hack right as you charge in.

[MartinYCS]

5 months before the last reply xD

Dominate is a very good choice imo for Insanity - Once your SMG or Squadmates' Abilities can take down a basic soldier's shields quickly, say an Eclipse Trooper or Vorcha Pyro, use Dominate immediately on him, selecting someone preferrably in the middle of a group. Then select some crappy trooper on the side, strip his shields to near breaking, Charge and Claymore his face then bunker down behind the enemies.



While everyone is busy filleting the traitor in their midst, Warp Explode something or just do the usual Vanguard thing.



Another interesting thing about the dominate ability is that you can choose between Enhanced Dominate or just the first tier, and both would work beautifully to cause a distraction. Your slave could either be super-strong and repeatedly Dominate-able to be used like your own YMIR with the Specialized talent or become conveniently marked for instant death.



Dominate should not eat up the Charge CDs. It should only be used at the start of a wave. Concentrate on breaking one trooper's shields, then Dominate him, and focus your damage elsewhere.

[Pacifien]

Dominating a Vorcha Pyro is simply sweet revenge.

One thing about Charge on a Vanguard is that it's treated almost as a requirement by most Vanguards that the entire strategy behind a Vanguard revolves around the use of Charge. Same with Soldiers and Adrenaline Rush. By design maybe, there needs to be something that makes a Vanguard different from an Assault Armor Sentinel in some way, I suppose. Make a sniper Soldier different from a sniper Infiltrator.

I suppose one thing I don't like about Vanguards is that the strategy is essentially the same all the time with them. Charge. Shotgun. A Soldier can go the Assault Rifle or Sniper Rifle route. An Infiltrator can be sniper or CQC. A Sentinel can be support or CQC. An Engineer can be distraction or support. An Adept... well, on Insanity, an Adept might be rather limited as well. But a Vanguard? Charge. Shotgun.

[Bhatair]

Pacifien wrote...
 An Engineer can be distraction or support. An Adept... well, on Insanity, an Adept might be rather limited as well. But a Vanguard? Charge. Shotgun.

Ah, but it's so sweet in its simplicity. 

[FoFoZem]

Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Here's the thing though, when playing later in the game, at level 26 on only veteran, my Heavy Charge did almost no damage. Is this a bug of some sort? Because eventually I just didn't even use it anymore, so I rebuilt my character with charge at only level two.

I don't see how this ability becomes useful after level 20 at all.

The point of charge is not to do damage.

It is to get Shepard within point blank range of an enemy instantaneously. Most, if not all, weapons do double damage when fired at point blank, so inadvertently that is the damage bonus for charge.

EDIT: Never mind. I didn't realize the post that I responded to was 5 months old. Who revived this thread?

Modifié par FoFoZem, 23 juin 2010 - 05:58 .