13634 réponses à ce sujet

[OneDrunkMonk]

I really liked the Samara character. She reminds me of Samurai except instead of loyalty to a master she is loyal to a code for justice. She is not cold at all but perhaps has a Zen like detachment coupled with centuries of experience and wisdom.

[gneissguy2003]

It is a bit of a tough situation. I really like both characters (Jack and Samara), but what york says is true about analysis concerning Samara. Most of it, almost all of it, is speculative. Not that it isn't that way to one degree or another for each of the characters, but it might be more so with Samara than with others. The difference with Jack is that besides having her dialogue and sordid history to discuss, we also have things like the tapestry of tattoos all over her body which is also a connection to her past. And under the tattoos? That poor girl is absolutely riddled with scars which we've actually spent time discussing and seeing how extensive they are and what point they may have had. One of the frequent posters in the Jack thread described her as "the gift that keeps on giving", meaning that even after all this time we still find topics that we haven't delved into with her or we've been fortunate to have someone come in and provide a new perspective on a topic we thought we'd truly beaten to death.



I don't want either thread to die because that would just be sad, but I thought I would try to lay out what kind of things we've talked about with Jack. Maybe it will help to spark more debate here about Samara, whatever that topic may be.



For instance, we actually were getting quite intense in our discussion of the moral ramifications of the Justicar Code and what it tells us about Samara as a person and how that differs from Jack's personal view of the universe because of her past. As a fan of both Jack and Samara, it was truly a mental feast.

[gneissguy2003]

yorkj86 wrote...

Kudara wrote...

Wow, some people have some really weird ideas about the Code. Did they not talk to the Asari on Illium?

Samara as a serial killer? *shakes head*

Are you talking about royceclemens' comment?  He was curious about if Samara might have become a Justicar because she likes to kill.  I don't think so.  I think he over-extrapolated from the information he had, and brought himself to some curiosity. 

Samara knew she had to clean up the "mess" she made.  Becoming a cop wouldn't give her the freedom to pursue her goals.  Justicars are given a license to kill, but, as people seem to forget, Justicars are only involved in matters when all else has failed.

I want to know if Justicars are given the power to arrest individuals, instead of just kill them.  Curiously enough, that isn't brought up.

Bioware has, for better or worse, left our understanding of the Code a bit hazy. And while I agree with you that Samara doesn't necessarily like to kill, she's also not averse to it, obviously. It does raise some rather interesting questions about what kind of person she truly is, or would be, without the Code. If the Justicar Order suddenly ended tomorrow, who would she be? Where would she go? What does she believe in? What will her place in the universe be?

[Terraneaux]

yorkj86 wrote...

Are you talking about royceclemens' comment?  He was curious about if Samara might have become a Justicar because she likes to kill.  I don't think so.  I think he over-extrapolated from the information he had, and brought himself to some curiosity. 

Well, she presumably became a Justicar because it gave her some kind of peace in her life, and part and parcel of being a Justicar is killing a LOT of people for no good reason, so... connect the dots, she's killing because it makes her feel better.  

[Ultai]

It'd be interesting to hear Thane and her talk, how he considers himself a weapon and that his employers are the killers and not him.  I don't see her getting much out of Grunt though, I laughed when I had him on her recruitment mission and she was talking about how she can comply for one day with the detective.

Grunt: Asari are stupid, your code means you kill her tomorrow instead of today
Samara: I'm afraid so

[Kudara]

yorkj86 wrote...

Kudara wrote...

Wow, some people have some really weird ideas about the Code. Did they not talk to the Asari on Illium?

Samara as a serial killer? *shakes head*

Are you talking about royceclemens' comment?  He was curious about if Samara might have become a Justicar because she likes to kill.  I don't think so.  I think he over-extrapolated from the information he had, and brought himself to some curiosity. 

Samara knew she had to clean up the "mess" she made.  Becoming a cop wouldn't give her the freedom to pursue her goals.  Justicars are given a license to kill, but, as people seem to forget, Justicars are only involved in matters when all else has failed.

I want to know if Justicars are given the power to arrest individuals, instead of just kill them.  Curiously enough, that isn't brought up.

Perhaps?  Officer Dara does make one comment that I remember that may be germain to this, she mentions that Justicars are obliged to stop lawbreakers 'with lethal force in most cases."  Which of course implies that there are a few cases in which they are not.

[Kudara]

Terraneaux wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Are you talking about royceclemens' comment?  He was curious about if Samara might have become a Justicar because she likes to kill.  I don't think so.  I think he over-extrapolated from the information he had, and brought himself to some curiosity. 

Well, she presumably became a Justicar because it gave her some kind of peace in her life, and part and parcel of being a Justicar is killing a LOT of people for no good reason, so... connect the dots, she's killing because it makes her feel better.  

Incorrect, she has an reason for every death, the Code.  I don't think she kills because it makes her feel better at all, I think she kills because she feels it is necessary.  Again I want to point out that the Code has an honored place in Asari society, accusing her of killing because she likes it would be like saying a Samuri likes killing because he had a duel with someone who insulted his honor and he killed them.  Now he might like killing but you cannot make that inference just from the fact that he will kill someone who insults his honor.

That was what was expected in that culture, Samara killing the unjust is not only expected but demanded in Asari culture.  The Code does not exist apart from their culture but is indeed a part of it.

Modifié par Kudara, 16 avril 2010 - 09:30 .

[Terraneaux]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Morinth being an Ardat Yackshi and Samara's pursuit of her, had a lot to do with her becoming a Justicar I believe. 

Why do say that she has killed for no good reason? 

One could argue that someone killed by Samara should have been incarcerated instead I suppose.  The code is black and white with no grey area.  I don't necessarily see her killing people for no good reason though.

She became a Justicar so that she wouldn't feel so bad about having raised a murderer.  She didn't have to become one to hunt down Morinth, in any case.  Part and parcel of being a Justicar is being a murderer; like those cops that Samara would have 'had' to kill if she was held for questioning (note that she never mentions trying to escape the police, even though she most certainly could, but instead specifically said that she was going to have to kill them, basically for insisting that she follow the laws like everyone else).  Long story short, Samara considers her own emotional stability more important than the lives of the people she murders.  

[Terraneaux]

Kudara wrote...

Incorrect, she has an reason for every death, the Code.  I don't think she kills because it makes her feel better at all, I think she kills because she feels it is necessary.  Again I want to point out that the Code has an honored place in Asari society, accusing her of killing because she likes it would be like saying a Samuri likes killing because he had a duel with someone who insulted his honor and he killed them.  Now he might like killing but you cannot make that inference just from the fact that he will kill someone who insults his honor.

That was what was expected in that culture, Samara killing the unjust is not only expected but demanded in Asari culture.  The Code does not exist apart from their culture but is indeed a part of it.

If Samara restricted her activity to Asari space, that would be one thing.  She doesn't.  She doesn't restrict her activities to only impinging upon the lives of people who buy into her code, either.  She considers herself above the law.  

[BlackMetal]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Terraneaux wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...
Morinth being an Ardat Yackshi and Samara's pursuit of her, had a lot to do with her becoming a Justicar I believe. 

Why do say that she has killed for no good reason? 

One could argue that someone killed by Samara should have been incarcerated instead I suppose.  The code is black and white with no grey area.  I don't necessarily see her killing people for no good reason though.

She became a Justicar so that she wouldn't feel so bad about having raised a murderer.  She didn't have to become one to hunt down Morinth, in any case.  Part and parcel of being a Justicar is being a murderer; like those cops that Samara would have 'had' to kill if she was held for questioning (note that she never mentions trying to escape the police, even though she most certainly could, but instead specifically said that she was going to have to kill them, basically for insisting that she follow the laws like everyone else).  Long story short, Samara considers her own emotional stability more important than the lives of the people she murders.  

We need to define the word "murder" then.  What is considered murder?  It is decided upon by society and written into law and enforced by the justice system right?

The Asari Justicar Code is part of Asari society.

From the Codex:
"The asari solution to the most vicious and
destructive criminal element is the Justicar Order." 
"The Oaths
pledge protection of the innocent, the punishment of the guilty, and
defense of common law and norms of asari society."

To call an Asari Justicar a murderer would be the same as calling an Asari law officer who killed a criminal a murderer IMO.

I agree, Justicars can't be called criminals in any sense, they are the ultimante opposite to them.

[Siansonea]

I have been away for awhile. Has everyone been playing nice?

[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
I have been away for awhile. Has everyone been playing nice?

Depends on what you consider nice.

I like the new avatar Johnny. I don't have modding ability (thanks XBox/Mac) so I'm stuck with prepackaged everything.

[Kudara]

Terraneaux wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Morinth being an Ardat Yackshi and Samara's pursuit of her, had a lot to do with her becoming a Justicar I believe. 

Why do say that she has killed for no good reason? 

One could argue that someone killed by Samara should have been incarcerated instead I suppose.  The code is black and white with no grey area.  I don't necessarily see her killing people for no good reason though.

She became a Justicar so that she wouldn't feel so bad about having raised a murderer.  She didn't have to become one to hunt down Morinth, in any case.  Part and parcel of being a Justicar is being a murderer; like those cops that Samara would have 'had' to kill if she was held for questioning (note that she never mentions trying to escape the police, even though she most certainly could, but instead specifically said that she was going to have to kill them, basically for insisting that she follow the laws like everyone else).  Long story short, Samara considers her own emotional stability more important than the lives of the people she murders.  

I have to disagree with you again.

If Shepard asks Samara why the change of heart when she says she will join your mission if you find the name of the ship Morinth escaped on, she replies that if she has to escape she will kill many innocents, something she does not want to do.  Her way out of having to escape is to go on your mission with the hope that she will survive.  I'd say that proves she's willing to risk death herself in order not to attack them.

Also, I'd like to point out that Detective Anaya knew exactly what Samara's reaction would be indicating that she had a very good idea of exactly what the Code would demand.  Did you hear her complaining about how terrible the Code was?  No, instead she simply wanted Samara gone before that happened.

[Kudara]

I always found it interesting that Samara never mentions going after the Detective's superiors who ordered her to detain the Justicar simply because they didn't want to run the risk of a cross-species incident. They had to know what would happen and decided to do it anyway. I know my Shepard wanted to go have a 'talk' with them, maybe march them down and make them sit in the Police Station with Samara.

[Whatcote Park]

One thing I would really like to see in me3 now that we know the characters from me2 well, is more interaction between characters in cutscenes. Moments like tali and legion, miranda and jack having their differences made for the most memorable scenes in the whole game in my opinion since it actually involved the gamer's judgement of character to choose who to favour (if renegade or paragon was not high enough) and living with the consequences. Can you imagine a scene between Samara and, I don't know, Thane over the moralities of his assassinations? Needs to be done!