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[Kudara]

Interesting, my partner just pointed out that the closest thing she could think of to the Justicars were the Texas Rangers.

[Kudara]

Lord Coake wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Do you have similar issues with Spectres?

None at all.  Spectres answer to the Council, who will rein them on or flat out drop the hammer if they get too far out of line.  Admittedly, this runs into trouble when the council is a pack of weak spined, ignorant, politcking bastards, but that final civilian authority is still there.

Police agencies answer to the same sort of command structure.  So does the military.

Justicars answer only to themselves and their own organization.  No other authority holds sway over them, and that is going way to far.  They have no oversight, no apparent chain of command, and are completely above the laws that everyone else has to follow.

That **** does not fly.  It's partly why I'd love to see a Justicar, in full grip of righteous fury and devotion to her cause and code, go head to head with CSEC, because juvinile as it may be, I like seeing the self-righteous get slapped down the system of real Authoruty that every other plebian has to abide by.

Justicars are just as fallible, just as mortal and by no means better than everyone else.  Get off the dammed high horse and back down here in the dirt with everyone else.

Actually chances are the Asari government does authroize the Justicars, it's difficult to see how they would continue to operate with so much respect from the other Asari if they weren't official in some way or another.  As for above the laws, I'd say they are actually more held by the law, after all it really seems like the Code is what 5000 lines of what to do when this occurs.

[devilsgrin]

Terraneaux wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

Incorrect.  They do answer to the Asari peope as a whole.  As I mentioned, Oaths have been and still are created to keep the Justicars in line.  Some are also created to prevent Justicars from overstepping their power and organizing coups if Asari norms and political decisions do not coincide with the tenets of the Code.  Lastly, Oaths have also been created because the Asari, being diplomats, don't want their ultimate method of dealing with criminals in non-Asari space.  That would have the potential to cause political catastrophes.

And who decides what the 'Asari people as a whole' want?  Samara seemed pretty sure that they didn't want her to be held by cops, and in fact were cool with her killing her way out.  Since when does she have the authority to make that decision?  Oh yeah, this 'code' which apparently also involves killing cops.  Samara follows her code, which is entirely divorced from morality in motivation (though it sometimes crosses and sometimes opposes it in practice).  This basically makes her a pretty terrible person.  I mean, she KNOWS it's bad that she kills people, as evidenced by her relief when she didn't have to kill the asari cops, but she would have gone ahead and done it anyway.  I don't know which is worse - someone who doesn't know any better than to not have respect for human life, or someone who does know better and goes ahead and kills people anyway.

Samara's Code doesn't "involve" killing cops. If you were paying attention during those scenes, you'd understand that the Code compels her to continue on her mission after one day. that the Cop has to hold her for longer is in no way the fault of The Code, but of the Superior Officers deliberately endangering the Sergeant.
The Code is also not at all divorced from Morality. It IS divorced from Varying Degrees of Black and White, but it is entirely based on the protection of the innocent and the punishment of the guilty. If the Sergeant in the situation above was an innocent, Samara would indeed not enjoy killing her, but with Samara's mission, the Greater Good is the ultimate motivator... the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

From what i can tell, becoming a Justicar is something far more profound than becoming simply a Spectre (which lets be honest is as un-lawful a position as the Council has, and which certainly finds its basic (at least) origins in the Justicar Order) it is a deep personal dedication to a Code, and a life, that makes the Justicar Judge, Jury and Executioner... but all bound by the tenets of The Code. A Code, it seems to me, that the Asari acknowledge as if-not-infallible, but as the ultimate expression of justice, why else would EVERY Asari we talk to about Justicars be  utterly respectful, if not in awe of them. 
With Asari living so long, it would be unlikely that no Justicar ever abused her power, but like with the Spectres, other Justicars are there to punish transgressors, harshly i'd imagine.

An ignorant killer is worse. they don't care at all about the consequences of their actions. Someone who knows better, and kills anyway, in the Justicar way, is going to be doing it for a reason, and is prepared to deal with consequences. (even if those consequences involve killing more less-innocent people)

[Kudara]

Exactly devilsgrin, almost every asari you meet treats them with the utmost respect. That says worlds to me about their position in Asari society. I always found it interesting that Captain Wasea, as she was going through her diatribe of who she was going to kill for interfering in her business left out the Justicar.

[devilsgrin]

Kudara wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
Do you have similar issues with Spectres?

None at all.  Spectres answer to the Council, who will rein them on or flat out drop the hammer if they get too far out of line.  Admittedly, this runs into trouble when the council is a pack of weak spined, ignorant, politcking bastards, but that final civilian authority is still there.

Police agencies answer to the same sort of command structure.  So does the military.

Justicars answer only to themselves and their own organization.  No other authority holds sway over them, and that is going way to far.  They have no oversight, no apparent chain of command, and are completely above the laws that everyone else has to follow.

That **** does not fly.  It's partly why I'd love to see a Justicar, in full grip of righteous fury and devotion to her cause and code, go head to head with CSEC, because juvinile as it may be, I like seeing the self-righteous get slapped down the system of real Authoruty that every other plebian has to abide by.

Justicars are just as fallible, just as mortal and by no means better than everyone else.  Get off the dammed high horse and back down here in the dirt with everyone else.

Actually chances are the Asari government does authroize the Justicars, it's difficult to see how they would continue to operate with so much respect from the other Asari if they weren't official in some way or another.  As for above the laws, I'd say they are actually more held by the law, after all it really seems like the Code is what 5000 lines of what to do when this occurs.

agreed Kudara.
The Code is a far more comprehensive list of laws and rules than most police agencies would ever have to deal with.

The Justicars may not have an oversight authority, but what it comes down to is that THEY are the oversight. they police everyone, not just the civilians, and they do it in a far more final manner.
We all know that every police force is riddled with corruption and nepotistic clannism, citing them as a system of real authority is like saying you'd prefer to be policed by the worst they have to offer, since we cannot judge them on their best. we'd like to, but reality is somewhat different.

the Spectres, as we see, pay little more than lip service to the Council. its the whole point of the Council having Spectres. they get the jobs done, without getting their own hands dirty... meanwhile the Spectre is question can be plotting the downfall of civilization as we know it, or just plain old deciding whether to kill the council or not. Once one is a Spectre the authority cannot be taken back. the "endorsement" of the Council certainly helps (it seems) but a Spectre is one for life. Few, even C-Sec officers, would be willing to attempt to take on a Spectre, in attempt to bring one to "justice" 

If i were you, i'd definitely NOT like to see C-SEC take on a Justicar. Samara could decimate them solo. She wouldn't, unless they were obstructing her mission, but C-SEC would ultimately lose far more than they could gain. The Asari would also be...irritated... that one of their most elite agents was so badly mistreated.

[Zulu_DFA]

Terraneaux wrote...

Samara follows her code, which is entirely divorced from morality in motivation.

Some people just can't get it. There is no universal morality. At least there hasn't been. The Spartans thought killing a defective baby is a highly moral act, for the society as a whole, and for the parents in particular. Oh, and for the baby too.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 avril 2010 - 10:53 .

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...
 I don't know which is worse - someone who doesn't know any better than to not have respect for human life, or someone who does know better and goes ahead and kills people anyway.

There you have it: setting human standards on an alien species. From what all other asari say about Justicars and the code, they distill the essence of what asari consider appropriate behavior. It represents the essence of their culture. They may look like sexy blue-skinned females who are always looking for a compromise or negociated solution... but this concern over diplomacy is based on an understanding that the alternative is going to be absolute black or white.

As the song says,

"...So the Maples formed a union and demanded equal rights,
The Oaks are just too lofty, we will make them give us light!
Now there's no more Oak oppression, for they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal, by hatchet axe and saw..."

A non-mind reading "plebeian" human species relies on due process, burden of proof, judgement by peers. A vigilante bypasses due process. A mind-reading Justicar does not need it, she can sense the guilt gnawing at you. Black and white... Oversight not required. (Remember AD&D? Paladin, Detect Evil at will? = Asari Justicar... It's sooo transparent! C'mon!!!! And people say paladins are boring characters... <sigh>)

But I agree with Lord Coak about Justicars being loose cannons outside asari space. From Samara's express interest in Omega and Tuchanka (as opposed to apathy towards the Citadel), they are apparently aware that operating in more "lawful" environments would be counter-productive. Justicars are rarely seen outside asari space because they are conscious of the potential for conflict. Only the hunt for a "space vampire" could draw one out this time.

I'm interested in seeing some level of moral quandary in ME3, to see how asari Justicar would resolve a conflict of jurisdiction or a difference in the interpretation of the Code between two Justicars. Some form of ritual trial by combat?

[BlackMetal]

yorkj86 wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

Lord Coake wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...


I agree, Justicars can't be called criminals in any sense, they are the ultimante opposite to them.

Only in Asari space would that fly.  In, say, human territory, a Justicar would be considered nothing more than an armed and extremely dangerous vigilante criminal for which lethal force is fully authorised.

As an aisde, I find the very idea of above-the-law enforcers so abhorrent that it's almost sickening.  Nobody is above the law, and everyone answers to either someone else, or a system that serves the same purpose.  No exceptions.  Attempting to put oneself or an organization above the law immdiately marks one as an outright enemy of the state.

The only thing keeping a Justicar in line is their own sense of loyalty and a code of honor?  Yeah.  That's perfectly ironclad.  Totally not open to abuse, and even if it were, it's not like anyone would abuse or turn their back on it.  Never happen.  Really.  Honor is unbreakable, right?

All true.

Samara is kinda like a Sexy blue alien batman that has a stricter code.

Batman doesn't kill.  He tells himself that killing as a solution to crime puts him on the same level as the criminals he hunts.  That's why people who call Garrus Omega's "Batman" are incorrect.

Samara is like Judge Dredd, as I stated in the Jack thread.

I agree and that's why  i said a stricter code.

The only reason i compared her to Batman is because both are not just common vigilantes, both have dedicated their lives to Stopping crime, Samara just uses more bullets......

[Ghost Prototype I]

I'll just throw this pic in.

[Terraneaux]

devilsgrin wrote...

If i were you, i'd definitely NOT like to see C-SEC take on a Justicar. Samara could decimate them solo. She wouldn't, unless they were obstructing her mission, but C-SEC would ultimately lose far more than they could gain. The Asari would also be...irritated... that one of their most elite agents was so badly mistreated.

Nah, I'm pretty sure that C-Sec can handle one crazed murderous biotic.  They'd probably lose some people, but Samara would go down pretty hard, she's powerful but not a one-person army like Shep.  And there's a lot of asari who would prefer that Justicars stay in asari space, otherwise they tend to give asari a bad name.  

[Terraneaux]

Flamewielder wrote...


There you have it: setting human standards on an alien species. From what all other asari say about Justicars and the code, they distill the essence of what asari consider appropriate behavior. It represents the essence of their culture. They may look like sexy blue-skinned females who are always looking for a compromise or negociated solution... but this concern over diplomacy is based on an understanding that the alternative is going to be absolute black or white.

Just to use an example, it's okay that certain societies on this planet do terrible things to their women when, say they are raped?  Like stoning them to death saying it was their fault?  You're totally cool with that, right, because that's another culture and we can't judge it?

A non-mind reading "plebeian" human species relies on due process, burden of proof, judgement by peers. A vigilante bypasses due process. A mind-reading Justicar does not need it, she can sense the guilt gnawing at you. Black and white... Oversight not required. (Remember AD&D? Paladin, Detect Evil at will? = Asari Justicar... It's sooo transparent! C'mon!!!! And people say paladins are boring characters... )

Nowhere is it said that Justicars use mind-reading to verify innocence or guilt.  It's just their judgment, which I'm sure is wrong from time to time.  But whether or not their judgment is correct doesn't seem to worry them.  It certainly doesn't worry Samara.  

The ironic thing about Samara is that she's about as Renegade as you can get - she answers to no one, kills who she thinks should die, lets live those who she thinks should live, and if anyone tries to stop her or hold her to account, she kills them too.  But she THINKS she's that paragon *ahem* of Paragon, even going so far as to threaten to punish Shep for doing things that she thinks are out of line.  

[Terraneaux]

BlackMetal wrote...

I agree and that's why  i said a stricter code.

The only reason i compared her to Batman is because both are not just common vigilantes, both have dedicated their lives to Stopping crime, Samara just uses more bullets......

Batman does dramatically less harm to the people around him i.e. he's not a murderer or cop-killer.

[Terraneaux]

That would depend upon who is looking at who.  To them, it's acceptable.  To others, it may not be.  The matter is telling them to knock it off, which then brings up the question of who they think they are to do such a thing.

Really?  If I tried to prevent someone from stoning a rape victim to death, your reaction would be 'who do you think you are?'  

It's not the place of the individual Justicar to question the criteria of judgment passed on to them in training to become Justicars, but it is up to the Asari people to amend these criteria.  To question said criteria is vigilantism itself, for better or for worse.

The Justicars aren't managed by the Asari government.  They don't answer to anyone.  And if anyone (like say, the Asari government) tells them their 'code' is wrong, and it needs to change, I doubt they'd adapt.  We're talking about the far-right, reactionary elements of asari society.  The corollary in our society would be far-right religious elements who want us all to live according to their holy book.  

She's Paragon in that she acts upon an ideal (Justice, the Greater Good, etc.) and Renegade in the way she executes the ideal.  Apparently, she fancies herself a friend only to the former.

I'd phrase it more in terms of how she doesn't realize she's perpetrating the latter, because, to her, what she's doing is perfectly reasonable.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 17 avril 2010 - 06:36 .

[Kudara]

I was thinking about justicars and how Asari society controls them when it occurred to me that the justicar's very strict adherence to the code is Asari society's way of controlling them.



We know that very few justicars survive the training process of becoming a justicar. What if part of that weeding out is weeding out the one's who aren't willing to strictly adhere to the Code?

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...
Just to use an example, it's okay that certain societies on this planet do terrible things to their women when, say they are raped?  Like stoning them to death saying it was their fault?  You're totally cool with that, right, because that's another culture and we can't judge it?

Yeah, sucks to be human, huh? Let's bomb the poor bastards back to the middle-ages for being slaves to ignorance and power-hungry zealots... But Justicars do not condone rape or the abuse of innocents.  If Samara was let loose in such societies, she'd no doubt need many bullets, eh? How many women and children do you think she'd murder? Please don't insult my intelligence by comparing a relatively primitive human civilisation to one that was spanning several star systems while we were still grooming fleas of our collective heads.

Nowhere is it said that Justicars use mind-reading to verify innocence or guilt.  It's just their judgment, which I'm sure is wrong from time to time.  But whether or not their judgment is correct doesn't seem to worry them.  It certainly doesn't worry Samara.

Asari mind meld for sex and to share information, such as the cypher in ME3. I have strong evidence that asari as a species are sensitive to thought patterns among organics of their species and others. It is only logical to assume they can detect falseness and criminal intent, at least based on surface emotions and stress indicators.

The ironic thing about Samara is that she's about as Renegade as you can get - she answers to no one, kills who she thinks should die, lets live those who she thinks should live, and if anyone tries to stop her or hold her to account, she kills them too.  But she THINKS she's that paragon *ahem* of Paragon, even going so far as to threaten to punish Shep for doing things that she thinks are out of line.

 

The very definition of Renegade is someone who refuse to follow rules and procedures to accomplish their objective. The fact Justicars are bound to a strict Code of conduct refutes your statement. This Code is part and parcel of asari society, as confirmed by Officer Dara.