13634 réponses à ce sujet

[7Makaveli]

well lets look at Samara's possible dialogue scenes. I think there is about two sequences before you can get to her loyalty. one is the initial convo which I can't remember what she says other than "I missed travelling with companions", and then you get to "I want to learn more about asari justicars...". Then her loyalty convo. after that is the post loyalty talk. then "I've seen many things in my travels...". and the last is the friend/Iwantmore convo.

thats a total of 6 if I didn't miss any. I'm inclined to say that she and Thane actually have more personal conversation options than anyone else on the squad. because in addition to their personal burdens from which you gain their loyalty, they are actually grizzled veterans of combat with more overall experience than even shepard and also have more complex archetype representations. but even with that I wanted more current events type of convo. it would put their reflective conversations in perspective.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 18 avril 2010 - 05:50 .

[7Makaveli]

or how about if you want to acknowledge the friendship between you and samara you get to say more than "that means alot to me...". seriously I thought that was a cop out. it could have easily gone into something about what friendship means to samara and her lifestyle. countless faces she has been helped by only for her to have to leave them for no other reason than the next cause for justice. which could have shepard talk about hmm I dunno..Virmire and him sacrificing a friend?? seriously, so much potential there.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 18 avril 2010 - 06:18 .

[Terraneaux]

Flamewielder wrote...
Yeah, sucks to be human, huh? Let's bomb the poor bastards back to the middle-ages for being slaves to ignorance and power-hungry zealots...

I like how you assume I condone the widespread bombing of the Middle East.

But Justicars do not condone rape or the abuse of innocents.  If Samara was let loose in such societies, she'd no doubt need many bullets, eh? How many women and children do you think she'd murder? Please don't insult my intelligence by comparing a relatively primitive human civilisation to one that was spanning several star systems while we were still grooming fleas of our collective heads.

The asari have a DIFFERENT culture than humans.  Not better.  They could stand to change some things, like the Justicars, the same way humans could stand to change some things.  But assuming that the asari 'just know better' is silly.  After all, they couldn't protect their Citadel from Sovereign.  If you're the kind of person who thinks that the asari are just better than humans, then there isn't any intelligence for me to insult.  I don't think you are that kind of person, however.

Asari mind meld for sex and to share information, such as the cypher in ME3. I have strong evidence that asari as a species are sensitive to thought patterns among organics of their species and others. It is only logical to assume they can detect falseness and criminal intent, at least based on surface emotions and stress indicators.

It's never shown to be a casual thing for asari to read minds.  They have to focus on it intensely, and Morinth is the only asari we've seen who can do it to people unwillingly, and she's obviously an outlier of some sort.  Furthermore, I think it would have been mentioned in the game if she does that.  It's never brought up.  

The very definition of Renegade is someone who refuse to follow rules and procedures to accomplish their objective. The fact Justicars are bound to a strict Code of conduct refutes your statement. This Code is part and parcel of asari society, as confirmed by Officer Dara.

Renegade/Paragon isn't a perfect delineation.  I would say that Randian Objectivism is a pretty clear example of a philosophy that would fall under 'Renegade,' but it could qualify as a 'code.'  Wrex was definitely a "Renegade' type character, but even he felt an obligation and devotion to his people in the incident on Virmire.  Just because someone's a Renegade doesn't mean they don't follow rules, they're just usually their own rules (like Wrex), or rules in express conflict with human (or alien) decency (like Samara).

[Terraneaux]

yorkj86 wrote...

I wonder if I'm the only person who enjoys Samara in part because, as a Justicar, she is meant to be morally ambiguous, as are most Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral characters?  Even the Code acknowledges "gray areas".

I'd love the character if the game actually explored that angle.  Instead, we get more than a bit of the 'sue' factor - the code is automatically assumed to be good, Samara is assumed to be good for following it, and so on.  Plus, there's that comparison between her and 'samurai' which makes no sense - samurai were the warrior caste in a feudal system, she is a wandering arbiter of justice.  Honestly I think whoever was writing her watches way too much anime.

[Kudara]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

So how does everyone feel about the amount of dialog in the game? Prefer more or less ore just right? I would like to talk to the squadmates a little more myself. Garrus and is calibrations for example. I would also like to talk to a potential LI without being locked into romance. The way it is now, you have like 2 conversations and then you either romance them or you don't talk to them anymore. I would like to still talk a little deeper with them and become friends.

Discuss please...

Discuss?  Wow that's hard because I simply agree witih you.  Don't even get me started on the femShep-Jacob issue, I literally reloaded the game after talking to him the firs time and was like...ok so I can't talk to Jacob.  More conversation definately, less being shoehorned into a romance also definately.

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...
The asari have a DIFFERENT culture than humans.  Not better.  They could stand to change some things, like the Justicars, the same way humans could stand to change some things.  But assuming that the asari 'just know better' is silly.  After all, they couldn't protect their Citadel from Sovereign.  If you're the kind of person who thinks that the asari are just better than humans, then there isn't any intelligence for me to insult.  I don't think you are that kind of person, however.

Different and more advanced (not necessarily better). Civilizations converge with time. Regional peculiarities are smoothed over by what becomes the accepted concesus. Democracy was an exception in ancient Greece, surrounded by monarchies. It's become more or less the norm in occidental countries. The abolition of slavery was slower to spread, with women given the right to vote coming in later.

I'm not stating asari culture is superior to humans, it is more advanced on the path to uniformity and concensus over societal values. The concensus among asari being that Justicars serve a noble purpose, in accordance to what the asari perceive to be right. I argue that primitive barbaric practices such as stoning raped women and treating them as chattel no longer exists in asari society. The Justicar order is also ancient, but happens to have survived a few thousand years of discussion/debate in asari society. If the institution was as barbaric as stoning women, I argue it would have been abolished (by force if necessary). It hasn't. Only criminals have had cause to complain in game. Honest asari in game have had nothing but good to say about Justicars. None of them have come forward to Shepard complaining about being "oppressed" or being treated unfairly by Justicars or the asari code.

It's never shown to be a casual thing for asari to read minds.  They have to focus on it intensely, and Morinth is the only asari we've seen who can do it to people unwillingly, and she's obviously an outlier of some sort.  Furthermore, I think it would have been mentioned in the game if she does that.  It's never brought up.

OK, then. Let's just sweep this major difference between humans and asari under the rug...

Wrex was definitely a "Renegade' type character, but even he felt an obligation and devotion to his people in the incident on Virmire.  Just because someone's a Renegade doesn't mean they don't follow rules, they're just usually their own rules (like Wrex), or rules in express conflict with human (or alien) decency (like Samara).

I'd argue that Wrex accumulated a fair share of paragon points before he gave up on the krogan species and became a mercenary. He isn't popular among krogans, and he's not motivated by self-interest. If all he wanted was to be "da big chief", he'd have taken up Mealon's offer of experimenting for a genophage cure. He did not. Wrex is well on his way to become a paragon to his species... even if he's got a fair share of renegade points accumulated.

You're assuming Samara is not feeling an obligation and devotion to her people and values? I'd argue that swearing an oath to uphold justice and law as the asari understand it is more paragon than renegade. Renegades do not bother with oaths. Renegades do not bother with written rules or laws. Paragon follow a line of conduct/behavior that is universally accepted as correct behavior among their peers, which the Justicars are among asari.

[greenas]

Samara was my favourite character in the whole game. She was just so interesting, or maybe that's just my uncontrollable obsession with the asari speaking.

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
Yeah, sucks to be human, huh? Let's bomb the poor bastards back to the middle-ages for being slaves to ignorance and power-hungry zealots...

I like how you assume I condone the widespread bombing of the Middle East.

I don't. I'm just cynical about the human species in general... I'm sure you are a sensible person, as I wouldn't bother debating the topic with someone I didn't respect. I do think that comparing an institution dedicated to the protection of the innocent and the punishment to the guilty within an obviously advanced culture to the primitive and barbaric customs of unenlightened tribal zealots in a country that never really came out of the dark ages to be stretching it.

[LiquidGrape]

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 18 avril 2010 - 01:19 .

[Kudara]

Excellent rebuttal Flamewielder. The lawabiding asari in the game are all very clear in their support of the idea of a justicar even if they aren't so crazy about one actually being on Illium. It's very obvious to me that the Justicars as a group have the support of modern Asari society, otherwise I'm sure we would hear at least one of them making remarks about them being an old outdated idea that has no place in modern Asari society. But no one says anything like that, not even the asari criminals.

[BlackMetal]

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

That's what I gathered...

[LiquidGrape]

BlackMetal wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

...What, you take offense at a harmless comic?
You people have no sense of humour.

[BlackMetal]

LiquidGrape wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

...What, you take offense at a harmless comic?
You people have no sense of humour.

Im not offended by it, it just caught me off guard.

Trust me im offended by very little.

[Masticetobbacco]

BlackMetal wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

...What, you take offense at a harmless comic?
You people have no sense of humour.

Im not offended by it, it just caught me off guard.

Trust me im offended by very little.

the fact that you find a hot woman jacking off offensive, tells a lot

[BlackMetal]

Masticetobbacco wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

...What, you take offense at a harmless comic?
You people have no sense of humour.

Im not offended by it, it just caught me off guard.

Trust me im offended by very little.

the fact that you find a hot woman jacking off offensive, tells a lot

Have you seen all of ED's Offended Page? I have.

[Masticetobbacco]

yorkj86 wrote...


Tells me that you can jump to conclusions.

umad? Thank you for your concern. Please accept my apologies

[Masticetobbacco]

BlackMetal wrote...

Masticetobbacco wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Now to interrupt the soci-political debate with a sordid comic.

Is she...is she fiddling with her pants in the third panel?

...What, you take offense at a harmless comic?
You people have no sense of humour.

Im not offended by it, it just caught me off guard.

Trust me im offended by very little.

the fact that you find a hot woman jacking off offensive, tells a lot

Have you seen all of ED's Offended Page? I have.

yes, I am now in fact eligible to work in America