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[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

^which one was Balak? I forgot.

I don't know... butt my main Shepard killed them both.  Damn terrorists... he is also the butcher of torfan.  Gets the job done no matter what the cost.

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...
I think assuming that society follows a straight path of progress, from 'primitive' to 'advanced,' is a huge mistake.  The fact that democracy is fairly widespread in occidental culture on earth right now is not necessarily an inevitability.  We could have easily moved to a more totalitarian or anarchistic model based off of what happened in the 20th century.  Things can sometimes progress sideways and 'backwards' on what would be this scale you talk about, if it existed.

You misunderstand me. As a society advances in time and communications increase between nations/cultures, a certain blending and uniformization happens. This is what I call advancement, which does not equal progress. The specific direction taken can be democracy or totalitarianism in any of its many unpleasant forms.

Then let's go back to the in-game codex which states that the current asari world government is a global electronic democracy where the jugement of matriarch is often deferred to. This is a successor to a loose coalition of republican city-states analogue to ancient Greece. Would you agree this is a rather enlightement form of goverment, or a totalitarian one? I will assume you will agree that democracy is superior to the alternatives. Again, the in-game information states that any policy issue is freely debated among the population (i.e. true democracy and not a representative/parliamentary form). I argue that since the asari people as a whole considers Justicars to be paragons of virtue even after millenias of existence, Justicars must be exceptionally fair in their judgement and compliant to what an asari democracy considers virtuous.

Among non-mind melding humans, a trial is required to determine the innocence or guilt of an accused. There is no other option available to us. We sometimes send innocents to their death or to life emprisonment (which may salve our conscience but may not feel any better for the condemned, hence the higher suicide rate in carceral populations). We condemn vigilanteism (like the Punisher) because we perceive that a vigilante may err more often than a judge or jury will. We feel it best to let the odd murderer walk out on a technicality rather than depriving the innocent from a full and appropriate defense.

The possibility that Justicars may be especially sensitive to feelings of guilt/innocence is an intriguing one and would certainly explain why the judgement of Justicars is so respected. Justicars are few, perhaps because this talent is, like the domination power of the Ardat-Yakshi, exceptional (i.e. Justicars are outliers themselves).  I agree it is a theory, not supported (or precluded) by existing game information, but it works. I am rather surprised the writers haven't explored that angle.

Finally, quoting the Mass Effect rule book, Paragons achieve their goals by doing the right thing in the right way. I'm assuming here that right is used in the sense of acceptable according to society's concept of virtue and justice. Renegades achieve their goals by whatever means necessary. A Renegade has no use for codes or laws if they get in his/her way. According to the game's definitions, I argue that Samara IS a paragon (which doesn't prevent her from having some renegade points accumulated from her pre-Justicar years). A renegade who hunts criminals won't balk at causing some colateral damage to stop a known mass murderer. Samara let Nihlus go rather than catch him while causing the death of an innocent. That sounds quite paragonish to me.

Government sanctioned killers exist, they're just not acknowledged in "democracies" (the murder of Anna Politkovskaya in Russia is a good example). Soldiers are in essence government sanctionned killers that are (at least in democracies) used against "enemy combattants" (i.e. whoever their elected goverment points them at, in accordance to their country's constitution). We are (appropriately) outraged when they are used against us, but we (rather hypocritically) justify their use against foreigners. Still, I personally don't consider soldiers to be "Renegades", even when they are involved in "friendly fire" incidents or checkpoint screw-up. To err is human, to repair divine.

I agree with you that Bioware's writers have sometimes skimped on details. The more details there are, the more immersive the RPG experience is. But we gotta work with what we have, and Samara has plenty to offer as an exploration of the "paragon/paladin" archetype. The Third Oath of Subsumption IS a plot device rendered necessary by the simple fact that all the decisions are made by US (i.e. Shepard). Samara can only agree or disagree, not decide. It kinda hobbles the character but it's unavoidable. I do have favorite characters in ME1 and ME2, but I like them all at least a little (yes, even Jacob "the Priiize" Taylor...)

Modifié par Flamewielder, 19 avril 2010 - 02:26 .

[Ashira Shepard]

Balak was the leader of the Batarian's in "Bring Down the Sky"



Slowly shot him to death and pictured it in my head as one of Ash-Shepard's many "dark moments."

[7Makaveli]

Makaveli Shepard is an odd fellow. A vanguard who prefers stealthy combat, sneaking up on enemies and flanking them. Other times he just goes straight through the middle and clears out enemies with his shockwave. And depends on his squad to do all the techy, smart stuff.



Saved the Rachni queen. Killed the council. Though he's not sure why, at the time he thought focusing on killing Sovereign was the main priority, and didn't realize that it would lead to the council being obliterated. Loves, loves, loves Asari. He does plan on retiring in Thessia with many Asari virgins..if they'll have him. As much as he knows Illusive Man is using him, he feels like he's using Illusive Man too, its mutual abuse. He oddly picks the renegade choices in weird situations, he once chewed out two smart alecky, racist Asari for talking too much. He thinks that Dragon's Teeth are "weird alien impaling devices". And he's gotten drunk at every space bar possible.

[Ashira Shepard]

Stopped Miranda, Mordin and Garrus from killing the respective targets of their wrath; all for their sake and not the "victim." Told TIM where to shove it; rewrote the Geth simply from trying to look at them as a whole and as a people rather than "just machines". Surprised at Kasumi's view of them as "just fancy security mechs." (another instance where I wish I could say something =P)



Damn Flamewielder, I feel humbled again. ^^; Nice posting

[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

In ME2, I let garrus take his shot, Destroyed the Collector Base, rewrote the Geth, did not hand over the data to the fleet, all squad members survived. Kept my ME1 LI's, Killed Samara (just kidding), and what else am I forgetting about ME2?

I liked the Samara crack... because I did kill her and let her daughter take her place.  I stopped Garrus, I forced the bartender to drink the poison, rewrote the Geth, actually gave the evidence to the migrant fleet (just kidding... I didn't... I do like Tali just not Talimancers), I destroyed the Collector Base.  Oh... and I really didn't kill Samara (I chose her over her daughter).

[Ashira Shepard]

Oh! Another "dark moment" with that damn bartender - thanks for reminding me >

"Drink it - or I'll blind you one eye at a time..."

Hmm, do you think Samara would mind that particular instance? The damn batarian did just try to poison and kill Shepard, and has obviously been doing the same thing with total success to other unknowing patrons.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 19 avril 2010 - 12:45 .

[DOYOURLABS]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...
As much as he knows Illusive Man is using him, he feels like he's using Illusive Man too, its mutual abuse.

What did you do with that data on the N7 lost operative mission.  I kept it thinking that I may need to use it against TIM in the future.

I kept it, just out of curiosity of what it is.

[Ashira Shepard]

Sent off to the alliance as a "small way" of flipping the Vs at TIM.

[Flamewielder]

7Makaveli wrote...

here's femshep wearing samara

Nice! I'm a little surprised by the color of the arms, thighs and bum. Samara's outfit had those areas black. Did you customize these or are they dependent on the model you map the skin on?

[NICKjnp]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Oh! Another "dark moment" with that damn bartender - thanks for reminding me >

"Drink it - or I'll blind you one eye at a time..."

Hmm, do you think Samara would mind that particular instance? The damn batarian did just try to poison and kill Shepard, and has obviously been doing the same thing with total success to other unknowing patrons.

I think that she would have minded the way it was handled... but not that he was being punished for poisoning people.  I love that part by the way... "Now!  Drink it!"

[7Makaveli]

I kept it and let EDI look at it, and I found it awkward that she sends me an e-mail lol

[NICKjnp]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

JohnnyDollar wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...
As much as he knows Illusive Man is using him, he feels like he's using Illusive Man too, its mutual abuse.

What did you do with that data on the N7 lost operative mission.  I kept it thinking that I may need to use it against TIM in the future.

I kept it, just out of curiosity of what it is.

I wasn't going to give it to Cerberus.  I was kind of afraid to give it to the Alliance out of fear that it may compromise my operations in the future.

Main Shepard sent it to the Alliance... Renegade Shep kept it as a bargaining tool.

[DOYOURLABS]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Oh! Another "dark moment" with that damn bartender - thanks for reminding me >

"Drink it - or I'll blind you one eye at a time..."

Hmm, do you think Samara would mind that particular instance? The damn batarian did just try to poison and kill Shepard, and has obviously been doing the same thing with total success to other unknowing patrons.

I think she would encourage it. She punishes the wicked and Forvan was definitely wicked.

[7Makaveli]

Flamewielder wrote...

Nice! I'm a little surprised by the color of the arms, thighs and bum. Samara's outfit had those areas black. Did you customize these or are they dependent on the model you map the skin on?

I didn't make these btw, but I think they are customizable regardless of the custom Shep skin type.

heres a link where I found it: http://social.biowar.../index/889432/1

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 19 avril 2010 - 01:04 .

[BlackMetal]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Yeah I made the bartender drink.

AshiraShepard wrote...
Hmm, do you think Samara would mind
that particular instance? The damn batarian did just try to poison and
kill Shepard, and has obviously been doing the same thing with total
success to other unknowing patrons.

Maybe she would not mind it.

I bet if Shepard wouldn't kill him Samara would, that guy's a murder.

[NICKjnp]

Random afterlife links:

Mid -
Lower & VIP -

This music reminds me of the time I spent in Italy.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 19 avril 2010 - 01:07 .