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[DirtyVagrant]

The_KFD_Case wrote...
Aria (voiced by Kate Moss from "The Matrix" movies).

I think you mean Carrie Anne Moss, not that twig Kate Moss.

And I think you are forgetting the number one rule of Omega, my friend!

[Flamewielder]

Well, it's already April 25 and it is Bioware's stated goal to release ME3 sometime in late 2011, early 2012... What are we guys gonna do in the meantime?

I was thinking back on my debate regarding Paragon/Renegade definitions with Terraneaux (a very stimulating debate, I should add). Terraneaux suggested Bioware writers chose a "cheap" way to equate Justicar with Paragon and that may be the case. But thinking on it, I don't think Justicars are "pure" Paragons, just as Wrex is not "pure" Renegade.

It occured to me that they were rather mirror images of one another, with a lot of common ground. Samara, while being a strict adherent to the Code, is not without compassion. I'm beginning to doubt if she would ever had had the resolve to kill Morinth if not for her dedication to the Code. Morinth had to be stopped. No one on Omega was going to do it. If Samara's dedication to the Code is a source of strength for her, it's not surprising she'd be reluctant to give it up. Following the Code helps her deal with her own inner anguish.

Similarily, Wrex started off as the would-be savior of the krogan species before his own father betrayed him. Disillusionned, he became a merc, as if to convince himself he didn't care anymore. Sure, he's a krogan, he likes to fight, it's in his nature... but he's got a strong noble streak too and it pained him to see how the krogans were throwing their future away.

Samara sought relief from her inner pain by dedicating herself to an impossible ideal. Wrex sought to forget about his impossible ideal by pretending he didn't give a damn about anything.

Samara: Pursue an impossible ideal to forget her dreams of a normal life
Wrex: Pursue a normal life to forget about his impossible ideal

The symmetry is striking, when you think about it...

[Flamewielder]

Hey! That's page 200!!! I knew there was love enough out there for Samara...



My hope for Samara in ME3? A subtle, moving almost romance, as hinted at in ME2. A challenge for the writers to write something different than the emotionally satisfying but ultimately conventional romances of the other LI's. A love as deep a a well, glimpsed at through the bright surface reflections of friendship/brotherhood in arms...

[The_KFD_Case]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...
Aria (voiced by Kate Moss from "The Matrix" movies).

I think you mean Carrie Anne Moss, not that twig Kate Moss.

And I think you are forgetting the number one rule of Omega, my friend!

 D'oh! Right you are. Thank you for rectifying my error.

As for the number one rule on Omega, I didn't forget about it.....

[DirtyVagrant]

Flamewielder wrote...

Hey! That's page 200!!! I knew there was love enough out there for Samara...

My hope for Samara in ME3? A subtle, moving almost romance, as hinted at in ME2. A challenge for the writers to write something different than the emotionally satisfying but ultimately conventional romances of the other LI's. A love as deep a a well, glimpsed at through the bright surface reflections of friendship/brotherhood in arms...

That is if the writers can stray away from the "flirting between the characters up until the love scene prior to the final battle"-format that Bioware tends to use. 

Samara: No Shepard, our love scene will have to wait until you take the forbidden-mass -relay-that-might-lead-us-to-certain-death-and-everyone-tells-us-we're-crazy-for-taking that'll jump us smack in middle of the Reaper invasion fleet... not until!

Modifié par DirtyVagrant, 25 avril 2010 - 11:38 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Flamewielder wrote...

Well, it's already April 25 and it is Bioware's stated goal to release ME3 sometime in late 2011, early 2012... What are we guys gonna do in the meantime?

I was thinking back on my debate regarding Paragon/Renegade definitions with Terraneaux (a very stimulating debate, I should add). Terraneaux suggested Bioware writers chose a "cheap" way to equate Justicar with Paragon and that may be the case. But thinking on it, I don't think Justicars are "pure" Paragons, just as Wrex is not "pure" Renegade.

It occured to me that they were rather mirror images of one another, with a lot of common ground. Samara, while being a strict adherent to the Code, is not without compassion. I'm beginning to doubt if she would ever had had the resolve to kill Morinth if not for her dedication to the Code. Morinth had to be stopped. No one on Omega was going to do it. If Samara's dedication to the Code is a source of strength for her, it's not surprising she'd be reluctant to give it up. Following the Code helps her deal with her own inner anguish.

Similarily, Wrex started off as the would-be savior of the krogan species before his own father betrayed him. Disillusionned, he became a merc, as if to convince himself he didn't care anymore. Sure, he's a krogan, he likes to fight, it's in his nature... but he's got a strong noble streak too and it pained him to see how the krogans were throwing their future away.

Samara sought relief from her inner pain by dedicating herself to an impossible ideal. Wrex sought to forget about his impossible ideal by pretending he didn't give a damn about anything.

Samara: Pursue an impossible ideal to forget her dreams of a normal life
Wrex: Pursue a normal life to forget about his impossible ideal

The symmetry is striking, when you think about it...

A salient observation and well argued on your part, IMO. Well done.

It is for the reason(s) you mention above in regards to Samara, that I think it would be a nice turn of events/poetic justice if Samara and Shepard were to have a romantic relationship. While BioWare need not take it much further than that, I personally enjoyed the end summations they have executed in past games such as the BG series and as recently as DA:O. While the thought might make some feel uncomfortable, the idea of Shepard and Samara having a non-pureblood child, and thus all but ruling out the chances of the child becoming and Ardat-Yakshi, such a conclusion would restore upon Samara the cherished future she once looked forward to before her first three daughters were diagnosed with the deadly condition. It strikes me as a fitting swan song as our heroes and heroines ride off in to the sunset.

....Of course, it wouldn't be the first time BioWare have finished a game series by having some of the main protagonists continue wandering the world/universe on their own, etc.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 25 avril 2010 - 11:41 .

[DirtyVagrant]

Found this over at that Survivor thread:

Samara: Out of those remaining,
Samara was consuming the most food and water due to her strong biotic
potential. Due to this Shepard knew she had to go. Shepard reminded
Samara of the oath she had sworn and commanded her to kill herself.
Samara reluctantly obliged.

[Garuda One]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Found this over at that Survivor thread:

Samara: Out of those remaining,
Samara was consuming the most food and water due to her strong biotic
potential. Due to this Shepard knew she had to go. Shepard reminded
Samara of the oath she had sworn and commanded her to kill herself.
Samara reluctantly obliged.

Wat

[7Makaveli]

pg 200!

ME3 needs Samara. I also hope to get an avant-garde love affair with Samara in ME3. What I mean by that is its a completely different approach than that of all the other LI's. It would be very hard to pull off because of course bioware loves their formulas. But I don't want that traditional buildup. I want them to talk about things; abstract things, beliefs. Samara doesn't have many needs due to her lifestyle, but she most certainly enjoys Shepards company as she admits to it. In her ending conversation, she joyfully says "you have been a good friend to me...". Without knowing it, she admits to her needs. If they can develop this into an unspoken bond then it would be a hell of a development. It doesn't have to change who she is, but after all she is human err.. I mean a person.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 25 avril 2010 - 11:55 .

[Kudara]

7Makaveli wrote...

pg 200!

ME3 needs Samara. I also hope to get an avant-garde love affair with Samara in ME3. What I mean by that is its a completely different approach than that of all the other LI's. It would be very hard to pull off because of course bioware loves their formulas. But I don't want that traditional buildup. I want them to talk about things; abstract things, beliefs. Samara doesn't have many needs due to her lifestyle, but she most certainly enjoys Shepards company as she admits to it. In her ending conversation, she joyfully says "you have been a good friend to me...". Without knowing it, she admits to her needs. If they can develop this into an unspoken bond then it would be a hell of a development. It doesn't have to change who she is, but after all she is human err.. I mean a person.

I would like that, the Samara romance (provided it hopefully happens) should be built out of a very solid friendship.

[7Makaveli]

I look at that last conversation as bioware planting a seed, whichever way you go (friendship or...please love me!) except if you ask for sex you're missing the point. If they use whatever grows for that as the fuel for her character development then they can't go wrong. At this point I think Samara is just very intrigued by Shepard, but not immersed. She hasn't seen enough, and feels its not worth it to get romantic. He is a good friend at this point, and someone who she would readily come for. Through whatever endeavors they experience together, that bond can only go stronger.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 26 avril 2010 - 12:12 .

[Flamewielder]

DirtyVagrant wrote...
That is if the writers can stray away from the "flirting between the characters up until the love scene prior to the final battle"-format that Bioware tends to use. 

Samara: No Shepard, our love scene will have to wait until you take the forbidden-mass -relay-that-might-lead-us-to-certain-death-and-everyone-tells-us-we're-crazy-for-taking that'll jump us smack in middle of the Reaper invasion fleet... not until!

 Yes, that's what I refer to when I say "conventional"...

I hope BW have the quads to pospone any Samara "romance scene" until AFTER the mission. Let the typical player **** and moan about Samara not having one before the final mission, then kick him in the daddy bags with an outstanding one at the end. Make the player work hard to get his/her closure...

We wouldn't want a pedestrian romance for Samara... why follow the same old format?

[Kudara]

7Makaveli wrote...

I look at that last conversation as bioware planting a seed, whichever way you go (friendship or...please love me!) except if you ask for sex you're missing the point. If they use whatever grows for that as the fuel for her character development then they can't go wrong. At this point I think Samara is just very intrigued by Shepard, but not immersed. She hasn't seen enough, and feels its not worth it to get romantic. He is a good friend at this point, and someone who she would readily come for. Through whatever endeavors they experience together, that bond can only go stronger.

I do think she seesalot of potential (already) there thought.  Otherwise she wouldn't say that she sees them achieving more than just happiness together.

[The_KFD_Case]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Found this over at that Survivor thread:

Samara: Out of those remaining,
Samara was consuming the most food and water due to her strong biotic
potential. Due to this Shepard knew she had to go. Shepard reminded
Samara of the oath she had sworn and commanded her to kill herself.
Samara reluctantly obliged.

Yeah, I saw that. Disappointing IMO. The poll creator does get credit for coming up with a canon reason as to why she would consume more resources (i.e. biotics garner hefty appetites after using their biotic powers according to "Ascension").

[The_KFD_Case]

Kudara wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

I look at that last conversation as bioware planting a seed, whichever way you go (friendship or...please love me!) except if you ask for sex you're missing the point. If they use whatever grows for that as the fuel for her character development then they can't go wrong. At this point I think Samara is just very intrigued by Shepard, but not immersed. She hasn't seen enough, and feels its not worth it to get romantic. He is a good friend at this point, and someone who she would readily come for. Through whatever endeavors they experience together, that bond can only go stronger.

I do think she seesalot of potential (already) there thought.  Otherwise she wouldn't say that she sees them achieving more than just happiness together.

Agreed. Based upon Samara's comments that the Code requires discipline and that her discipline is whom she is, coupled with one of the romance build-up scenes where she almost loses control (or so it seems to me at least), it seems likely that she is very interested in Shepard (ex. in one dialogue outcome she says that in her maiden years she would have dragged Shepard to the floor, how much more evidence is required?). I suspect it's the thought of letting those desires and feelings pent up inside of her run free, which she has spent centuries learning to control and keep at bay that unsettles her. The idea of losing control of the very thing she identifies as being the core pillar of her being; her discipline. The thought of losing oneself can be a frightening prospect to just about anyone.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 26 avril 2010 - 12:35 .

[DirtyVagrant]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Found this over at that Survivor thread:

Samara: Out of those remaining,
Samara was consuming the most food and water due to her strong biotic
potential. Due to this Shepard knew she had to go. Shepard reminded
Samara of the oath she had sworn and commanded her to kill herself.
Samara reluctantly obliged.

Yeah, I saw that. Disappointing IMO. The poll creator does get credit for coming up with a canon reason as to why she would consume more resources (i.e. biotics garner hefty appetites after using their biotic powers according to "Ascension").

Yes but loses points for saying she'd kill herself just because Shepard TOLD her to. One of the more inane things I've read on this board. They're voting out Mordin now... the, you know, guy that could treat wounds and prolong their survival. Just goes to show that people are just voting for their LI.

Then again we can't say for sure if a natural asari biotic would need to consume more than a human biotic.

Modifié par DirtyVagrant, 26 avril 2010 - 12:33 .

[The_KFD_Case]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Yes but loses points for saying she'd kill herself just because Shepard TOLD her to. One of the more inane things I've read on this board. They're voting out Mordin now... the, you know, guy that could treat wounds and prolong their survival. Just goes to show that people are just voting for their LI.

Then again we can't say for sure if a natural asari biotic would need to consume more than a human biotic.

All valid points. Also, if they really were hardcore about buying Shepard as much time as possible in terms of supplies, etc. then all of the other characters would need to die or commit suicide on day one.

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 26 avril 2010 - 12:38 .

[The_KFD_Case]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...
I look at that last conversation as bioware planting a seed, whichever way you go (friendship or...please love me!) except if you ask for sex you're missing the point. If they use whatever grows for that as the fuel for her character development then they can't go wrong. At this point I think Samara is just very intrigued by Shepard, but not immersed. She hasn't seen enough, and feels its not worth it to get romantic. He is a good friend at this point, and someone who she would readily come for. Through whatever endeavors they experience together, that bond can only go stronger.

She did say "in another time, another life".  Shepard was rejected.  Was this just to add a little realism to the game?  Hey Shep you can't everything you want?  Or was it to intentionaly leave the player in suspension as to what will become of it?

BioWare managed to get me on the edge of my seat with baited breath twice with regards to LI. Tali'Zorah's unmasking (which I purposefully put off until I had completed every side-mission and surveyed/mined. each. and. every. damn. planet. moon. and. asteroid. in. the. entire. game! Note: 124 hours of game play on my first play through) and what did I find? BioWare decides to break character immersion after putting so much emphasis on "Oh, Shepard is you the player - what he/she does, sees, experiences, etc. that is what the player does, sees, experiences, etc." but nooooo! Of course not at such a climatic moment. Typical and grossly gargantuan uber troll moment. The other occasion was with Samara - I was so sure my Shepard had managed to seal the deal....

Modifié par The_KFD_Case, 26 avril 2010 - 12:43 .

[7Makaveli]

JohnnyDollar wrote...


She did say "in another time, another life".

I know its such a crazy thought lol Shepard should run back to his cabin, grab his death certificate, run back down as Samara as getting back to her meditations, place it in front of her and point to his watch with a creepy smile.

In all seriousness, that is the big "hole" I was talking about in my earlier post. The line has no comeback known to Man. The only thing I can think about is if a realization comes to Samara, in a way like a "life is short" sort of deal. Then the romance can be about peeling off the layers of seclusion she has draped all around her. Until eventually she bares her soul to Shepard, tells him her true feelings, shares her horrors, and Shepard can only listen and understand, and serve as a mirror to her that allows her to relate to him. Maybe she will realize they are more alike than anything, because he is "different" than anyone she's ever met. I dunno...