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[7Makaveli]

Isn't it interesting that Samara has clear renegade and paragon qualities, but you can never really label her as either? Its like she's on a different spectrum altogether, one that doesn't factor in the morality of your actions. She has strict methods that she would see through regardless of who is in her way or what anyone thinks; similar to Renegade. She pursues justice from the stance of an overarching entity; similar to Paragons. Inside, you can infer that she believes that she is doing what she has to; I'm sure Renegades have that they just don't show it. Similarly, she feels for and mulls over her actions while meditating; obviously Paragons don't meditate but they do face the consequences of their actions which would lead them into some reevaluation of them.



Thoughts? Comments? Bueller?

[BlackMetal]

7Makaveli wrote...

Isn't it interesting that Samara has clear renegade and paragon qualities, but you can never really label her as either? Its like she's on a different spectrum altogether, one that doesn't factor in the morality of your actions. She has strict methods that she would see through regardless of who is in her way or what anyone thinks; similar to Renegade. She pursues justice from the stance of an overarching entity; similar to Paragons. Inside, you can infer that she believes that she is doing what she has to; I'm sure Renegades have that they just don't show it. Similarly, she feels for and mulls over her actions while meditating; obviously Paragons don't meditate but they do face the consequences of their actions which would lead them into some reevaluation of them.

Thoughts? Comments? Bueller?

For how Black and White the code is, she is morally Grey.

[7Makaveli]

We didn't have characters with such strong moral extremes in the first game, you could say that has been an improvement. I think Garrus was the one character that stood out in terms of letting it be known that while he was impressionable, he preferred to do things his way. Look where that made him end up, I think he did pretty well considering how much confidence working with Shepard may have given him. Characters such as Samara and Thane though, are certainly not to have any Shepard "rub" off on them. They are almost at the twilight of their careers. So that could be a detriment to the possibility of character development for them. You can't really write them back in as people who have "changed" like Garrus changed. There going to have to have endured a very personal event to have somewhat of a captivating narrative. Or they could just happily rejoin Shepard in hopes to end the reapers cause they were just bored. Either way, I want 'em back.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 21 mai 2010 - 11:21 .

[7Makaveli]

BlackMetal wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Isn't it interesting that Samara has clear renegade and paragon qualities, but you can never really label her as either? Its like she's on a different spectrum altogether, one that doesn't factor in the morality of your actions. She has strict methods that she would see through regardless of who is in her way or what anyone thinks; similar to Renegade. She pursues justice from the stance of an overarching entity; similar to Paragons. Inside, you can infer that she believes that she is doing what she has to; I'm sure Renegades have that they just don't show it. Similarly, she feels for and mulls over her actions while meditating; obviously Paragons don't meditate but they do face the consequences of their actions which would lead them into some reevaluation of them.

Thoughts? Comments? Bueller?

For how Black and White the code is, she is morally Grey.

Yeh, that seems to be the consensus, Black, you would have to be in that day and age. When she says "there is only The Code", she says it as if its an independant entity she merely subscribes to. Its not her Code, its the Code. She benefits from its practice because she can resolve her unfortunate nightmare once and for all, and whilst that she does the Code's bidding.

EDIT: But its not like she's using it for that, right?

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 21 mai 2010 - 11:26 .

[NICKjnp]

Nope... she leans more paragon than renegade in the ME universe. The problem with ME and ME2 is that it takes Shepard beyond the anti-hero role in the ME universe. Paragon is logical and renegade is often evil and pointless. That is why I have a problem with being renegade in ME and ME2.

[7Makaveli]

yorkj86 wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Yeh, that seems to be the consensus, Black, you would have to be in that day and age. When she says "there is only The Code", she says it as if its an independant entity she merely subscribes to. Its not her Code, its the Code. She benefits from its practice because she can resolve her unfortunate nightmare once and for all, and whilst that she does the Code's bidding.

EDIT: But its not like she's using it for that, right?

You don't sound convinced that she actually fully believes in the Code.  She's put in the effort to become a Justicar, but you make it seem as if obedience to It is merely the cost she has to pay in order to be able to (legally) clean up the situation with her daughters.

I realize it came off as that, that's why I put that last edit in lol. Uhm...I dunno, she clearly obeys the Code line for line. But you ask her "why would anyone want to become a Justicar?" and she responds "It is a deeply personal matter, sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one"

I take it she refers to the situation with her daughters, what do you make of it?

[BlackMetal]

7Makaveli wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Isn't it interesting that Samara has clear renegade and paragon qualities, but you can never really label her as either? Its like she's on a different spectrum altogether, one that doesn't factor in the morality of your actions. She has strict methods that she would see through regardless of who is in her way or what anyone thinks; similar to Renegade. She pursues justice from the stance of an overarching entity; similar to Paragons. Inside, you can infer that she believes that she is doing what she has to; I'm sure Renegades have that they just don't show it. Similarly, she feels for and mulls over her actions while meditating; obviously Paragons don't meditate but they do face the consequences of their actions which would lead them into some reevaluation of them.

Thoughts? Comments? Bueller?

For how Black and White the code is, she is morally Grey.

Yeh, that seems to be the consensus, Black, you would have to be in that day and age. When she says "there is only The Code", she says it as if its an independant entity she merely subscribes to. Its not her Code, its the Code. She benefits from its practice because she can resolve her unfortunate nightmare once and for all, and whilst that she does the Code's bidding.

EDIT: But its not like she's using it for that, right?

Samara and the Code are quite interesting to me.

The Code is very Hardcore and extreme and one would think it would not last very long due to that. Then you have Samara, who many would put in the Paladin or Templar catagory, yet the Code has nothing to do with "God" or to bring out spiritual enlightenment, and would force her to kill a child if need be. So she defies some of the main points to these roles, but yet still seems to be somewhat near this type of character, she defies all damn explanation!

Oh my a wall of text.

[7Makaveli]

Comic from the "Funny Comic" Thread



Clearly some people had this inclination towards Samara <_<

[BlackMetal]

^ and this is the reason why we have not even reached 300 pages.

[NICKjnp]

yorkj86 wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

I realize it came off as that, that's why I put that last edit in lol. Uhm...I dunno, she clearly obeys the Code line for line. But you ask her "why would anyone want to become a Justicar?" and she responds "It is a deeply personal matter, sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one"

I take it she refers to the situation with her daughters, what do you make of it?

I think it's a matter of interpretation.   I think it's a matter of not being able to know if she's lying/deceiving or not.   I  think she's genuinely and sincerely dedicated to the Code now, but that doesn't mean she didn't join the Justicars for a selfish reason back then.  Even then, that doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't think she was doing the right thing by becoming a Justicar in order to clean up her situation with her daughter.

I  think it's a matter of her needing more character development in ME3.

If you listen to her (and Morinth's) conversations you find out that she was always an upright and just asari.  She says that she did questionable things when she was young but nothing openly unjust.  Morinth hated her because she always stressed doing the right thing and honoring the Goddess.  She seems perfectly fit as a Justicar.

[7Makaveli]

yorkj86 wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

I realize it came off as that, that's why I put that last edit in lol. Uhm...I dunno, she clearly obeys the Code line for line. But you ask her "why would anyone want to become a Justicar?" and she responds "It is a deeply personal matter, sometimes the most brutal path is the only honest one"

I take it she refers to the situation with her daughters, what do you make of it?

I think it's a matter of interpretation.   I think it's a matter of not being able to know if she's lying/deceiving or not.   I  think she's genuinely and sincerely dedicated to the Code now, but that doesn't mean she didn't join the Justicars for a selfish reason back then.  Even then, that doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't think she was doing the right thing by becoming a Justicar in order to clean up her situation with her daughter.

I  think it's a matter of her needing more character development in ME3.

Its worth discussing for sure, but the content is a little truncated in this regard. Do we ever really find out why she became a Justicar? We get those words I mentioned, and then the notion that she's sworn to kill Morinth. But the explicit connection of those things has to be made by us. There could have been a variety of reasons, one's that could be uncovered in the next game. The Code does not really have a "higher calling" as she says, no spiritual enlightenment, but perhaps it gives her more peace than we think. A stark contrast from the chaotic life that led up to her swearing the oath. Hmm...

Either way though, the strongest practical reason for her to be Justicar in the first place, is the killing of Morinth. I don't think it gives her that much satisfaction as it does peace of mind. Maybe she needed to have this curtain around her to have a personal inclination to go through with it. The Code makes it so that she has to do it. It allowed her to seperate emotionally from it as much as possible. It made it her duty among other things.  Another thing worth mentioning is that she made it her own goal to do it, not telling authorities or even approaching another Justicar. This was her mess. But yes, I am certain she has found her work to be rewarding even though its not meant to be thought of as that.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 22 mai 2010 - 12:09 .

[Kudara]

NICKjnp wrote...

Nope... she leans more paragon than renegade in the ME universe. The problem with ME and ME2 is that it takes Shepard beyond the anti-hero role in the ME universe. Paragon is logical and renegade is often evil and pointless. That is why I have a problem with being renegade in ME and ME2.

Some of the things the game defines as renegade are just silly, remember in Garrus' rescue he hands you the sniper rifle?  What the hell is renegade about taking the opportunity to shot a mech whose advancing to attack you?

But yes generally I just don't see the renegade choices as really advancing much of a renegade path since I think ultimately they will actually make the end game harder instead of easier.  I mean if you let the council die and set up a all human council the rest of the council races aren't too fond of you, that doesn't bode well for getting their cooperation.  You don't have the Rachni, you let Cerberus take Legion so you don't have the Geth etc.

As for Samara, yes i think she definately leans more toward Paragon, remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

[7Makaveli]

Kudara wrote...

remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

what are you referring to specifically? I might be forgetting some initial dialogue.

[Kudara]

As for her killing a child, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in those 5000 sutras there was something about the age at which an asari is considered to be responsible for their own actions. She speaks quite strongly about protecting the innocent, even to the point that she will let an unjust person go free to protect them.

[Kudara]

7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

what are you referring to specifically? I might be forgetting some initial dialogue.

Where you ask her for more information about the justicar code once Detective Anaya has arrived and you say something about it seeming rather strict.

Samara:  It may seem so to you, but this is my oath.  The expedient path may be fast and simple; that does not make it the right path.

[7Makaveli]

Kudara wrote...

As for her killing a child, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in those 5000 sutras there was something about the age at which an asari is considered to be responsible for their own actions. She speaks quite strongly about protecting the innocent, even to the point that she will let an unjust person go free to protect them.

Am playing devil's advocate, please don't shoot me

what about the first eclipse merc? wasn't she innocent? Look at her situation. She tells Samara where Morinth is, and likely suffers at the hands of Morinth or her cronies. She doesn't, and Samara kills her. Just where in between does she cross the line of being innocent and guilty in this regard?

The more I think about Samara's intro scene, the fishier it is to me lol. Its like the only out of character scene for her and its the intro LOL. Does anyone agree that its atleast a little inconsistent, how she treats the Eclipse merc? It was for effect, nothing more I think.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 22 mai 2010 - 12:19 .

[7Makaveli]

@"expedient path"



ah okay, yeh, that is a paragon trait I suppose.

[BlackMetal]

Kudara wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Nope... she leans more paragon than renegade in the ME universe. The problem with ME and ME2 is that it takes Shepard beyond the anti-hero role in the ME universe. Paragon is logical and renegade is often evil and pointless. That is why I have a problem with being renegade in ME and ME2.

Some of the things the game defines as renegade are just silly, remember in Garrus' rescue he hands you the sniper rifle?  What the hell is renegade about taking the opportunity to shot a mech whose advancing to attack you?

But yes generally I just don't see the renegade choices as really advancing much of a renegade path since I think ultimately they will actually make the end game harder instead of easier.  I mean if you let the council die and set up a all human council the rest of the council races aren't too fond of you, that doesn't bode well for getting their cooperation.  You don't have the Rachni, you let Cerberus take Legion so you don't have the Geth etc.

As for Samara, yes i think she definately leans more toward Paragon, remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

Yes! Someone else who agrees!

I hate how in the ME universe being renegade makes your life "Harder" in a sense when in real life being a villian is much easier. Also hate how things are obviously renegade or paragon ( If having them color coded wasn't enough) i like how in Dragon Age, the "good" or "evil" choices are not always easily identifiable.

[Kudara]

7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

As for her killing a child, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in those 5000 sutras there was something about the age at which an asari is considered to be responsible for their own actions. She speaks quite strongly about protecting the innocent, even to the point that she will let an unjust person go free to protect them.

Am playing devil's advocate, please don't shoot me

what about the first eclipse merc? wasn't she innocent? Look at her situation. She tells Samara where Morinth is, and likely suffers at the hands of Morinth or her cronies. She doesn't, and Samara kills her. Just where in between does she cross the line of being innocent and guilty in this regard?

The more I think about Samara's intro scene, the fishier it is to me lol. Its like the only out of character scene for her and its the intro LOL. Does anyone agree that its atleast a little inconsistent, how she treats the Eclipse merc? It was for effect, nothing more I think.

No, because the Eclipse merc just by the fact that she's wearing the uniform and is a Lieutenant in that organization is unjust.  She has murdered, probably multiple times, and been involved in illegal activities such as smuggling, drug distribution and of course smuggling known criminals offworld.  No, the Eclipse merc is not an innocent by any stretch of the imagination.  The only problem a Paragon has is the fact that the merc wasn't able to fight back at that point, not that the Pargon thought Samara was killing someone who was innocent of wrongdoing.