13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Kudara]

BlackMetal wrote...

Kudara wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Nope... she leans more paragon than renegade in the ME universe. The problem with ME and ME2 is that it takes Shepard beyond the anti-hero role in the ME universe. Paragon is logical and renegade is often evil and pointless. That is why I have a problem with being renegade in ME and ME2.

Some of the things the game defines as renegade are just silly, remember in Garrus' rescue he hands you the sniper rifle?  What the hell is renegade about taking the opportunity to shot a mech whose advancing to attack you?

But yes generally I just don't see the renegade choices as really advancing much of a renegade path since I think ultimately they will actually make the end game harder instead of easier.  I mean if you let the council die and set up a all human council the rest of the council races aren't too fond of you, that doesn't bode well for getting their cooperation.  You don't have the Rachni, you let Cerberus take Legion so you don't have the Geth etc.

As for Samara, yes i think she definately leans more toward Paragon, remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

Yes! Someone else who agrees!

I hate how in the ME universe being renegade makes your life "Harder" in a sense when in real life being a villian is much easier. Also hate how things are obviously renegade or paragon ( If having them color coded wasn't enough) i like how in Dragon Age, the "good" or "evil" choices are not always easily identifiable.

Gaw yes, take the end of ME1.  I'm like oh yes while the boss mob is separated from all his little buddies come in and take them out and then go after him.  (old Evercrack player)    You certainly didn't leave the little mobs to jump in on you while you were trying to take out the boss, that was a recipie for getting your group or raiding party killed. 

So I'm like, why is this the Paragon decision?  Oh well... jump in there boys and while the idiots are wailing on the Ascention take them out from behind.  Then I'll open er up and we'll all jump on the boss.

[7Makaveli]

Kudara wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

As for her killing a child, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in those 5000 sutras there was something about the age at which an asari is considered to be responsible for their own actions. She speaks quite strongly about protecting the innocent, even to the point that she will let an unjust person go free to protect them.

Am playing devil's advocate, please don't shoot me

what about the first eclipse merc? wasn't she innocent? Look at her situation. She tells Samara where Morinth is, and likely suffers at the hands of Morinth or her cronies. She doesn't, and Samara kills her. Just where in between does she cross the line of being innocent and guilty in this regard?

The more I think about Samara's intro scene, the fishier it is to me lol. Its like the only out of character scene for her and its the intro LOL. Does anyone agree that its atleast a little inconsistent, how she treats the Eclipse merc? It was for effect, nothing more I think.

No, because the Eclipse merc just by the fact that she's wearing the uniform and is a Lieutenant in that organization is unjust.  She has murdered, probably multiple times, and been involved in illegal activities such as smuggling, drug distribution and of course smuggling known criminals offworld.  No, the Eclipse merc is not an innocent by any stretch of the imagination.  The only problem a Paragon has is the fact that the merc wasn't able to fight back at that point, not that the Pargon thought Samara was killing someone who was innocent of wrongdoing.

Well...all I have to say to that is.....Eclipse mercs for squadmate and LI in ME3!

seriously tho, the Devil would counter that Samara doesn't judge people based on past actions. If she doesn't want to know if people are good fathers then it certainly shouldn't matter if shes wearing a merc uniform. She only pursued the Spectre becuase she caught him in the act of doing something wrong.

[Kudara]

Yes but she does know that the merc was involved with smuggling Morinth offworld. Apparently she's willing to let the merc go if the merc answers her, so I'd guess that in this case knowingly not answering when you do know the answer is the unjust action.

[7Makaveli]

Kudara wrote...

Yes but she does know that the merc was involved with smuggling Morinth offworld. Apparently she's willing to let the merc go if the merc answers her, so I'd guess that in this case knowingly not answering when you do know the answer is the unjust action.

That is what I initially assumed. The only problem I have with that tho is that I would think that to execute someone The Code requires an explicit display of wrongdoing for Samara to engage. Like when she saw Nihlus kill an unarmed civilian, clearly Samara has to step in and fix it up. But pursuing a trail and killing the last people left behind because they won't let you progress is a little less of a wrongdoing because its not by itself incriminating, but again the Code does not see that grey area. And also maybe there is something in the Code that intensifies things she would see in pursuit of her main cause, which is to kill Morinth. Which brings us back. Alright I've had my little fun, devil advocate time is over thx for playing btw

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 22 mai 2010 - 12:50 .

[Bigdoser]

Kudara wrote...

Yes but she does know that the merc was involved with smuggling Morinth offworld. Apparently she's willing to let the merc go if the merc answers her, so I'd guess that in this case knowingly not answering when you do know the answer is the unjust action.

Also the fact that morinith is a serial killer so she really needs to find that ship the longer it takes the more people she will kill.

[Kudara]

7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

Yes but she does know that the merc was involved with smuggling Morinth offworld. Apparently she's willing to let the merc go if the merc answers her, so I'd guess that in this case knowingly not answering when you do know the answer is the unjust action.

That is what I initially assumed. The only problem I have with that tho is that I would think that to execute someone The Code requires an explicit display of wrongdoing for Samara to engage. Like when she saw Nihlus kill an unarmed civilian, clearly Samara has to step in and fix it up. But pursuing a trail and killing the last people left behind because they won't let you progress is a little less of a wrongdoing because its not by itself incriminating, but again the Code does not see that grey area. And also maybe there is something in the Code that intensifies things she would see in pursuit of her main cause, which is to kill Morinth. Which brings us back. Alright I've had my little fun, devil advocate time is over thx for playing btw

Hmm, no I don't think I explained that well.  I was thinking more about the interference with her investigation and knowingly aiding and abbetting a murderer escape justice.  I guess I was thinking maybe the Code defines knowingly inteferring with a justicar's investigation with the purpose of allowing a criminal to escape them is specifically defined as unjust.  (in the code)

Which is also sorta what you said

Modifié par Kudara, 22 mai 2010 - 01:02 .

[Kudara]

Ah I found it. I remembered a very short but well written fic about that Eclipse merc on fanfic.



http://www.fanfictio.../5760718/1/I_Am

[7Makaveli]

Kudara wrote...

Ah I found it. I remembered a very short but well written fic about that Eclipse merc on fanfic.

http://www.fanfictio.../5760718/1/I_Am

Well that was very vivid, held me quite rapt.

The eclipse merc is becoming increasingly interesting hehe. There is the one thing:

'She would hurt me in ways you can't imagine..."

^ Ironic much? Its funny I don't know what exactly Morinth offers these mercs in exchange for being smuggled around. She must have them wrapped up in a sort of approval seeking maze. Morinth is somethin else.

[NICKjnp]

Kudara wrote...

BlackMetal wrote...

Kudara wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Nope... she leans more paragon than renegade in the ME universe. The problem with ME and ME2 is that it takes Shepard beyond the anti-hero role in the ME universe. Paragon is logical and renegade is often evil and pointless. That is why I have a problem with being renegade in ME and ME2.

Some of the things the game defines as renegade are just silly, remember in Garrus' rescue he hands you the sniper rifle?  What the hell is renegade about taking the opportunity to shot a mech whose advancing to attack you?

But yes generally I just don't see the renegade choices as really advancing much of a renegade path since I think ultimately they will actually make the end game harder instead of easier.  I mean if you let the council die and set up a all human council the rest of the council races aren't too fond of you, that doesn't bode well for getting their cooperation.  You don't have the Rachni, you let Cerberus take Legion so you don't have the Geth etc.

As for Samara, yes i think she definately leans more toward Paragon, remember when you first meet her she speaks against taking the quickest way even though it may seem easier.

Yes! Someone else who agrees!

I hate how in the ME universe being renegade makes your life "Harder" in a sense when in real life being a villian is much easier. Also hate how things are obviously renegade or paragon ( If having them color coded wasn't enough) i like how in Dragon Age, the "good" or "evil" choices are not always easily identifiable.

Gaw yes, take the end of ME1.  I'm like oh yes while the boss mob is separated from all his little buddies come in and take them out and then go after him.  (old Evercrack player)    You certainly didn't leave the little mobs to jump in on you while you were trying to take out the boss, that was a recipie for getting your group or raiding party killed. 

So I'm like, why is this the Paragon decision?  Oh well... jump in there boys and while the idiots are wailing on the Ascention take them out from behind.  Then I'll open er up and we'll all jump on the boss.

Out of curiosity... did you save the council or let them die?

[Kudara]

Saved them. As I said my thought was while the geth are occupied with the Ascention sneak up on the geth and take them out. I cringed when Shep said save the Council at any cost. I was like, no no tell me she did not say such a stupid thing the Council does us no good if the Reapers invade. My thought was seriously that the 5th fleet needed to take out the geth first before taking on Sovereign and while they were occupied with the asari dreadnought seemed like an excellent idea.

[NICKjnp]

Kudara wrote...

Saved them. As I said my thought was while the geth are occupied with the Ascention sneak up on the geth and take them out. I cringed when Shep said save the Council at any cost. I was like, no no tell me she did not say such a stupid thing the Council does us no good if the Reapers invade. My thought was seriously that the 5th fleet needed to take out the geth first before taking on Sovereign and while they were occupied with the asari dreadnought seemed like an excellent idea.

Yeah... the "no matter what the cost" line was a little overkill.  Though I also didn't want them dead... just because you don't like a political leader doesn't mean you should say "let them die".

[ChanceRandom]

7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

As for her killing a child, I wouldn't be at all surprised if in those 5000 sutras there was something about the age at which an asari is considered to be responsible for their own actions. She speaks quite strongly about protecting the innocent, even to the point that she will let an unjust person go free to protect them.

Am playing devil's advocate, please don't shoot me

what about the first eclipse merc? wasn't she innocent? Look at her situation. She tells Samara where Morinth is, and likely suffers at the hands of Morinth or her cronies. She doesn't, and Samara kills her. Just where in between does she cross the line of being innocent and guilty in this regard?

The more I think about Samara's intro scene, the fishier it is to me lol. Its like the only out of character scene for her and its the intro LOL. Does anyone agree that its atleast a little inconsistent, how she treats the Eclipse merc? It was for effect, nothing more I think.

I dont believe so. She herself explains when you ask her about her fight with Nihlus. Nihlus killed an unarmed foe, which inturn caused her to act against him. You then ask her whats the difference between what he did and what she does when you first meet her. Her responce was simple, her foe was armed, his was not. She came looking for information, they refused to give it to her and then tried to kill her. At worst its self defence, and at best justice from one Asari to another. I dont believe there is any moral ambiguity in how Samara acts. For her, life is black and white, The Code and those things outside of the Code.

Now once she begins to follow you, this is where things get muddied. Because she allows your actions to dictate her Code no matter which side of the fence you fall. She only warns you that if you go to far she may have to kill you.

[ChanceRandom]

Kudara wrote...

Saved them. As I said my thought was while the geth are occupied with the Ascention sneak up on the geth and take them out. I cringed when Shep said save the Council at any cost. I was like, no no tell me she did not say such a stupid thing the Council does us no good if the Reapers invade. My thought was seriously that the 5th fleet needed to take out the geth first before taking on Sovereign and while they were occupied with the asari dreadnought seemed like an excellent idea.

I made the decision to save them only because no matter when you attack, Human forces were going to be lost. The sacrifice in human lives is made whether you save them or not, so it was better to save the Council members and earn the respect of the other council races and a spot on the Council, than to watch them die and usurp it afterwards. Now the fact that they pretty much just pat you on the back when you come back 2 yrs later seemed more insulting but Im pretty sure Udina does the same thing if you let the Council die in the first game.

[Terraneaux]

The Code also lets her defend affronts to her honor with lethal force, I should mention that.

[Kudara]

Actually they won't meet with you if you let the original Council die, not even the one dominated by humans. So actually the warmest of the Councils is if you saved the originals at least the asari and salarian (even if they do think your deluded) are willing to listen to you.

[NICKjnp]

Kudara wrote...

Actually they won't meet with you if you let the original Council die, not even the one dominated by humans. So actually the warmest of the Councils is if you saved the originals at least the asari and salarian (even if they do think your deluded) are willing to listen to you.

Is it true that if you pick Anderson that the Council is still mutlispecies but Udina is only humans?

[Kudara]

I think it has to do with whether or not you go paragon (concentrate on Sovereign) or renegade (let the council) die. I think Anderson/Udina is a separate choice though if you chose Udina you have a much harder time of it if you want you're Spectre status back.

Honestly you'd have to as someone whose done something other than let the council live endings.  I was just never interested in killing off 10k asari for no reason.  What can I say, I'm a sucker when it come to a ship full of cute female aliens.

Modifié par Kudara, 22 mai 2010 - 03:18 .

[Pacifien]

I think the deciding factor is whether or not you're more paragon. I always take the neutral option to concentrate on Sovereign, have more paragon points than renegade, plus choose Anderson for the Council. The Council ends up being multispecies in ME2.

ETA: I think if anyone considers Samara renegade should probably look at the decision to save the Council. No way would Samara have let the innocent on the Destiny Ascension perish without some action on her part.

Modifié par Pacifien, 22 mai 2010 - 03:31 .

[Pacifien]

Actually, having played both outcomes in ME2, I still prefer the one where the Council dies. Since everyone is keen to think the worst of Shepard anyway, why not add to the notoriety?

[Collider]

My canon Shepard saved the council. Even though Shepard and crew didn't know the true sense of Sovereign, I do think emotion came to play in my decision. It didn't feel right to let the Council, in a powerful irreplaceable ship with ~10,000 people be destroyed by Geth when I have the chance to save them.

[Pacifien]

It's funny, I can do every paragon action of the game, but when it comes to saving the Council or rewriting the Heretics... No. They get to die. I'll do it every time, unless I'm specifically looking to create an import of alternate decisions.

[7Makaveli]

okay fiiiiine, Samara is not renegade at all. She is the paragoniest paragon of them all

Specticar Samara for ME3!