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#10126
Flamewielder

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yorkj86 wrote...

I think he finds her motives for becoming a Justicar questionable.  He also finds the moral merits of the Justicars and the Code to be dubious.  It might be a different guy, but I think he also finds Samara to be sociopathic, and a murderer.

I don't agree with most of the above, but it does serve to remind us that we shouldn't cutesify Samara any more than we should cutesify Jack, because in doing so, we completely miss an extremely important part of their characters.

Lack of accountability is one of his biggest beef with Justicars in general, and I understand his reasoning. It is certain Justicars would be considered criminal vigilantes on XXIst Century Earth... And Jack IS a dangerous criminal, even if she never had a chance to become anything else.

But Jack's character appeals to rebels/anarchists who are disillusioned with the failings of our governments and justice systems, even if they have no viable alternative to propose; while Samara appeals to the dreamers and idealists who fancy the ideal of absolute justice. The fact that no human could be a Justicar doesn't stop me from finding the concept appealing.

#10127
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I like her because the Justicars and the Code show that the Asari are, in fact, imperfect, and that they have morally questionable practices.  The Justicars present a dilemma when humans interact with Asari, because of differences with regard to the way justice is carried out.   It's just important to remember that Justicars are few (I think Samara says there are less than a handful in existence), and are sent to deal with problems that can't be dealt with through normal means.

One reason I like Samara is because I can appreciate the moral ambiguity of her character.  I need to think of her from a human & non-asari perspective, and an asari perspective, in trying to understand her character.

Modifié par yorkj86, 19 juillet 2010 - 09:40 .


#10128
kelmar6821

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http://browse.devian...effect#/d2uc7ec

Posted Image

by DarthJazz

#10129
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That looks like a young Samara. I like it.

#10130
kelmar6821

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If Samara had a non AY daughter who followed in her foot steps, that would be it.

#10131
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kelmar6821 wrote...

If Samara had a non AY daughter who followed in her foot steps, that would be it.


samara & shepard's daughter amirite lolololo

Modifié par yorkj86, 19 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .


#10132
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Actually - thinking about it, would Samara would want a non-AY daughter to become a Justicar?

Modifié par yorkj86, 19 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .


#10133
NICKjnp

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If Samara had a non-AY daughter then she wouldn't have become a Justicar in the first place. But I won't start up another discussion on asari genetics.

#10134
NICKjnp

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yorkj86 wrote...

kelmar6821 wrote...

If Samara had a non AY daughter who followed in her foot steps, that would be it.


samara & shepard's daughter amirite lolololo


Only if she wanted another AY running around :P

#10135
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NICKjnp wrote...

If Samara had a non-AY daughter then she wouldn't have become a Justicar in the first place. But I won't start up another discussion on asari genetics.


This isn't a discussion of whether or not it's possible, it's a discussion of a hypothetical situation, wherein it happens, say, with her and Shepard, and we speculate.

Modifié par yorkj86, 19 juillet 2010 - 10:40 .


#10136
Kudara

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Another chapter of Who Saves the Hero is done, Chapter 22.

#10137
DOYOURLABS

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yorkj86 wrote...

Actually - thinking about it, would Samara would want a non-AY daughter to become a Justicar?

I don't think she would. She would raise her daughter to be just according to the code, but discourage her being a justicar. Samara says she is a ruined vessel of sorrow and regret, and she wouldn't want that for her daughter. She probably would push for a non-pure blood relationship for her daughter too, just to avoid the AY situation. 

#10138
Kudara

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7Makaveli wrote...

Hello all! Am writing another quickfic, this one will have separate parts and the first Chapter is done:

Down Below (Chapter One)

Its light humor mixed in with some mystery, and Samara will have a role to play at some point ; )

I'll be stepping out for a bit, hope you all enjoy!


Interesting start to the story, I hope they haven't put someone whose not dead in one of the coffins.

#10139
NICKjnp

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If Samara had non-AY children then she wouldn't be a Justicar. She became one because her children were AY.

#10140
Terraneaux

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yorkj86 wrote...

I like her because the Justicars and the Code show that the Asari are, in fact, imperfect, and that they have morally questionable practices.  The Justicars present a dilemma when humans interact with Asari, because of differences with regard to the way justice is carried out.   It's just important to remember that Justicars are few (I think Samara says there are less than a handful in existence), and are sent to deal with problems that can't be dealt with through normal means.

One reason I like Samara is because I can appreciate the moral ambiguity of her character.  I need to think of her from a human & non-asari perspective, and an asari perspective, in trying to understand her character.


If Samara's moral ambiguity was actually explored in the game, that would be great.  That would actually make her portrayal a relatively self-aware one on the part of the game writers.  Instead (and if you disagree that's totally fine, I'm not coming into the Samara fan thread to troll you guys.  At least not anymore :whistle:), I feel that Samara was portrayed in a way that didn't really address the kinds of questions you would naturally ask about someone in her position.  Shep is in a similar position in terms of accountability, but over the course of the two games we learn a bit about his/her opinion on the matter; paragon Shep seems to not quite like the lack of accountability the Spectres have, and has lines that he/she won't cross, but is willing to take advantage of the situation for the greater cause of justice.  Renegade Shep, on the other hand, is more like 'No accountability?!  Watch out, galaxy, here I come!'  Samara doesn't really get this level of explanation because the Justicars are essentially handwaved as 'good people' by the writing, which I find to be frustrating.  The only thing counting in her favor from a Paragon's point of view, in my opinion, is that the alternative to her is Morinth.  

There's another problem I have with Jack, Samara, and to a lesser extent Thane, which is that when they're in the game they seem to be written in such a way that it really steals the focus and direction of the game away from Shep.  That also means that I'm not exactly surprised when people become big fans of the characters, since, for example, the writer in question seems to have bent over backwards to portray Samara as an uber-cool stone-cold space samurai (but with boobs!).  I just feel that the somewhat schizophrenic focus on all of the secondary characters in ME2, rather than the main character, hurt the game, and I think that the portrayals of the three characters I mentioned were too shallow.  

That said, it was interesting to find out about Justicars within the context of the ME universe; it makes sense that they would exist, and I'm betting that part of the reason that Spectres exist is that the Asari, who obviously have influenced the governmental and social structure of the Council goverment the most, are comfortable with those kind of wandering, unaccountable arbiters of justice.  I don't think that Samara is a totally terrible character, but my negative opinion of her is more part of what I see as the overall problems with ME2.  I have to say that I'd like to see her have some character development where she really has to face the implications of her actions and her responsibility for what happens when she's following her Code.  In particular, a situation in which another Justicar, perhaps a less thoughtful and more fanatical one, was hunting an Ardat Yakshi who had just realized her situation and was more in the 'running scared' mode, and the other Justicar wasn't really trying to capture her, just kill her.  How Samara reacted to a situation like that, with the strictness of the Code vs. what may very well have been an accidental string of deaths rather than murder, all tied up with her own regrets and feelings as a mother, would to me really be a test of her character and a good chance to see what she's like under that calm demeanor.  The same situation would be fairly revealing for Morinth, as well.  

Anyway, not trying to say 'you're all bad for liking this character and you should feel bad!,' but rather just trying to have a reasoned discussion about the character.

#10141
BlackMetal

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Hey any good disscusion been going around?



I haven't been keeping up with the forum in a few days, viruses were crippiling my computer.

#10142
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Flamewielder wrote...

Lack of accountability is one of his biggest beef with Justicars in general, and I understand his reasoning. It is certain Justicars would be considered criminal vigilantes on XXIst Century Earth... And Jack IS a dangerous criminal, even if she never had a chance to become anything else.

But Jack's character appeals to rebels/anarchists who are disillusioned with the failings of our governments and justice systems, even if they have no viable alternative to propose; while Samara appeals to the dreamers and idealists who fancy the ideal of absolute justice. The fact that no human could be a Justicar doesn't stop me from finding the concept appealing.


But Jack and Samara are my favorite characters.  What does this say?    You calling me politically bipolar, Flamewielder?  :happy:

#10143
7Makaveli

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Kudara wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Hello all! Am writing another quickfic, this one will have separate parts and the first Chapter is done:

Down Below (Chapter One)

Its light humor mixed in with some mystery, and Samara will have a role to play at some point ; )

I'll be stepping out for a bit, hope you all enjoy!


Interesting start to the story, I hope they haven't put someone whose not dead in one of the coffins.


Thanks for reading, interesting bit of speculation there, stay tuned ^_^

also for some reason the link to your fanfic you posted earlier is not working for me...am I the only one that has this problem?

#10144
DOYOURLABS

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Something occurred to me while I was writing chapter 3 of my fanfic. Did Shepard receive N7 training before or after Elysium, Akuze, etc. ?

#10145
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Terraneaux wrote...]

If Samara's moral ambiguity was actually explored in the game, that would be great.  That would actually make her portrayal a relatively self-aware one on the part of the game writers.  Instead (and if you disagree that's totally fine, I'm not coming into the Samara fan thread to troll you guys.  At least not anymore :whistle:), I feel that Samara was portrayed in a way that didn't really address the kinds of questions you would naturally ask about someone in her position.  Shep is in a similar position in terms of accountability, but over the course of the two games we learn a bit about his/her opinion on the matter; paragon Shep seems to not quite like the lack of accountability the Spectres have, and has lines that he/she won't cross, but is willing to take advantage of the situation for the greater cause of justice.  Renegade Shep, on the other hand, is more like 'No accountability?!  Watch out, galaxy, here I come!'  Samara doesn't really get this level of explanation because the Justicars are essentially handwaved as 'good people' by the writing, which I find to be frustrating.  The only thing counting in her favor from a Paragon's point of view, in my opinion, is that the alternative to her is Morinth.  

There's another problem I have with Jack, Samara, and to a lesser extent Thane, which is that when they're in the game they seem to be written in such a way that it really steals the focus and direction of the game away from Shep.  That also means that I'm not exactly surprised when people become big fans of the characters, since, for example, the writer in question seems to have bent over backwards to portray Samara as an uber-cool stone-cold space samurai (but with boobs!).  I just feel that the somewhat schizophrenic focus on all of the secondary characters in ME2, rather than the main character, hurt the game, and I think that the portrayals of the three characters I mentioned were too shallow.  

That said, it was interesting to find out about Justicars within the context of the ME universe; it makes sense that they would exist, and I'm betting that part of the reason that Spectres exist is that the Asari, who obviously have influenced the governmental and social structure of the Council goverment the most, are comfortable with those kind of wandering, unaccountable arbiters of justice.  I don't think that Samara is a totally terrible character, but my negative opinion of her is more part of what I see as the overall problems with ME2.  I have to say that I'd like to see her have some character development where she really has to face the implications of her actions and her responsibility for what happens when she's following her Code.  In particular, a situation in which another Justicar, perhaps a less thoughtful and more fanatical one, was hunting an Ardat Yakshi who had just realized her situation and was more in the 'running scared' mode, and the other Justicar wasn't really trying to capture her, just kill her.  How Samara reacted to a situation like that, with the strictness of the Code vs. what may very well have been an accidental string of deaths rather than murder, all tied up with her own regrets and feelings as a mother, would to me really be a test of her character and a good chance to see what she's like under that calm demeanor.  The same situation would be fairly revealing for Morinth, as well.  

Anyway, not trying to say 'you're all bad for liking this character and you should feel bad!,' but rather just trying to have a reasoned discussion about the character.


I understand that the writer's hands were tied, with regard to developing characters.  The teammates have such restrictive dialogue, and the game's structure is very restrictive (its current state is different than it used to be, where the player was free to recruit teammates as he wishes).  There's a reason Garrus is known for his calibrations.  Jack doesn't even have any romance-specific dialogue after the final romance scene, she just gets stuck on repeat.  The teammates barely even recognize each other's existence until Kasumi came along in her DLC.  As I  understand it, the fact that Kasumi has several lines that address a Shepard's interaction, romantic or otherwise, with every other teammate, was done as the result of that being a popular request from the game's community.

Understanding the physical limitations of the game, I can understand the basic gist of what Samara's writer(s) were trying to get across.  Here is this "perfect" species that acts as the moderate voice for all other species.  Now, here is this person who serves a Code that gives her permission to act outside of normal judiciary procedures.  It seems so out-of-place, compared with what the Asari represent.   I can appreciate the incongruity.  Samara does, too.  "Justicars are from another era..."  Do you think that the moral merits of both Samara and Morinth are adequately ambiguous by themselves?

As for teammates stealing the "spotlight"  from Shepard - I think it's refreshing, I really do.  I can't imagine that any of them would be memorable without it being that way.  It's humbling to think that there are personalities out there that are bigger than Shepard's.  In this thread, we often mention how even Shepard seems humbled by Samara.  It makes me feel as if my Shepard is a cog in a well-oiled machine, and not the entire machine himself.  Do you think, though, that this coincides with the reduced RPG-elements of ME2?

#10146
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DOYOURLABS wrote...

Something occurred to me while I was writing chapter 3 of my fanfic. Did Shepard receive N7 training before or after Elysium, Akuze, etc. ?


I think after?  Shepard was in command of the soldiers on Akuze, for example, but I don't think he was N7 yet.

#10147
NICKjnp

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yorkj86 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Something occurred to me while I was writing chapter 3 of my fanfic. Did Shepard receive N7 training before or after Elysium, Akuze, etc. ?


I think after?  Shepard was in command of the soldiers on Akuze, for example, but I don't think he was N7 yet.


I think before.  He received his N (special forces) status during his alliance training.  He got his top grade in it after the Elysium, Akuze, Torfan incident.  Why would a regular soldier be leading an elite group to take out pirates on Torphan?  How could he have had the training to stop the slavers on Elysium?  How did he have the survival skills to survive the Thresher Maws on Akuze?  I think that he received his training before these situation but achieved the top proficieny/rank (7) after them.

#10148
DOYOURLABS

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NICKjnp wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Something occurred to me while I was writing chapter 3 of my fanfic. Did Shepard receive N7 training before or after Elysium, Akuze, etc. ?


I think after?  Shepard was in command of the soldiers on Akuze, for example, but I don't think he was N7 yet.


I think before.  He received his N (special forces) status during his alliance training.  He got his top grade in it after the Elysium, Akuze, Torfan incident.  Why would a regular soldier be leading an elite group to take out pirates on Torphan?  How could he have had the training to stop the slavers on Elysium?  How did he have the survival skills to survive the Thresher Maws on Akuze?  I think that he received his training before these situation but achieved the top proficieny/rank (7) after them.

That makes sense. The N in N7 designates special forces, and 7 just means the top rank. But couldn't have those actions caught the attention of Alliance Brass so they moved him to special forces? I mean, he's Shepard, he probably could have defended Elysium by himself.

#10149
Arhka

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NICKjnp wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

kelmar6821 wrote...

If Samara had a non AY daughter who followed in her foot steps, that would be it.


samara & shepard's daughter amirite lolololo


Only if she wanted another AY running around :P


Ardat-Yakshi are only possible in pureblood-pureblood asari couplings.

#10150
Kudara

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7Makaveli wrote...

Kudara wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Hello all! Am writing another quickfic, this one will have separate parts and the first Chapter is done:

Down Below (Chapter One)

Its light humor mixed in with some mystery, and Samara will have a role to play at some point ; )

I'll be stepping out for a bit, hope you all enjoy!


Interesting start to the story, I hope they haven't put someone whose not dead in one of the coffins.


http://www.fanfictio..._Saves_the_Hero

So that's the not fancy link.

Thanks for reading, interesting bit of speculation there, stay tuned ^_^

also for some reason the link to your fanfic you posted earlier is not working for me...am I the only one that has this problem?