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[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...

There's a decent discussion of Samara, Justicars and the Code in the Samara thread in the Character Discussion Group.

Sad that this discussion isn't held here... I'm just too lazy to post my ramblings in 2 different threads...

[Flamewielder]

Couldn't help myself and posted on it... Nothing that wasn't already discussed on this thread. The misconception that the Justicar Order can do whatever it wants with no oversight is a popular one... and so is the prejudice against "paladins in space" it seems.

[Pacifien]

Have updated some guidelines/rules about this forum. *Click Here* Not trying to single any thread out, trying to let all threads know about it.

[DOYOURLABS]

I was thinking, how does Samara get her information? I don't think she roughs up mercenaries for everything, and we've discussed the possibility of a nexus of information from other justicars. But do you think they ever use information brokers? And could they even afford that?

[7Makaveli]

Getting Information (A Short Story)

Samara: My name is Samara, a Justicar, I need some information

Info Broker: I'm not telling you jack Justicar, how do I even know you're a Justicar?

Samara: It's right here on my card *gives card*

Info Broker: Uhhh......this card just says "Tell Me Or Die"...

Samara: Mhm, yeah, see right there? *points to card*

Info Broker: .....uh, here, take my whole database *runs in terror*

Fin.

                         

[Ashira Shepard]

I approve of this idea, Mak. XD

[Flamewielder]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

I was thinking, how does Samara get her information? I don't think she roughs up mercenaries for everything, and we've discussed the possibility of a nexus of information from other justicars. But do you think they ever use information brokers? And could they even afford that?

The Codex states: "...Although justicars generally work alone, their effectiveness arises from the huge body of knowledge they can access. Any asari who enters the ranks of justicars has already spent centuries in a combination of criminal investigation, military intelligence, and combat experience; the collective body of justicar knowledge exceeds even that of the Spectres..."
So there you have it: Samara has access to a knowledge base that likely includes all asari law-enforcement agencies (essentially, anything these law-enforcement can gather from contacts, tips, undercover agents, etc...), in addition to her personal knowledge of criminal investigation/forensics.

[DOYOURLABS]

Flamewielder wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

I was thinking, how does Samara get her information? I don't think she roughs up mercenaries for everything, and we've discussed the possibility of a nexus of information from other justicars. But do you think they ever use information brokers? And could they even afford that?

The Codex states: "...Although justicars generally work alone, their effectiveness arises from the huge body of knowledge they can access. Any asari who enters the ranks of justicars has already spent centuries in a combination of criminal investigation, military intelligence, and combat experience; the collective body of justicar knowledge exceeds even that of the Spectres..."
So there you have it: Samara has access to a knowledge base that likely includes all asari law-enforcement agencies (essentially, anything these law-enforcement can gather from contacts, tips, undercover agents, etc...), in addition to her personal knowledge of criminal investigation/forensics.

I really need to start reading the codex more.

[Terraneaux]

Flamewielder wrote...
So there you have it: Samara has access to a knowledge base that likely includes all asari law-enforcement agencies (essentially, anything these law-enforcement can gather from contacts, tips, undercover agents, etc...), in addition to her personal knowledge of criminal investigation/forensics.

That's not what the codex says.

What it says is that every Justicar is an extremely highly trained professional in a violent profession before they even get to joining the organization.  It says nothing about Justicars having some secret 'information network' that only they can access or something.  

[7Makaveli]

Terraneaux wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
So there you have it: Samara has access to a knowledge base that likely includes all asari law-enforcement agencies (essentially, anything these law-enforcement can gather from contacts, tips, undercover agents, etc...), in addition to her personal knowledge of criminal investigation/forensics.

That's not what the codex says.

What it says is that every Justicar is an extremely highly trained professional in a violent profession before they even get to joining the organization.  It says nothing about Justicars having some secret 'information network' that only they can access or something.  

He's quoting exactly from the codex via the wiki, and that's what it says: "their effectiveness arises from the huge body of knowledge they can access"

Unless you mean to say that each Justicar brings their own wealth of knowledge that they've gained from a variety of backgrounds into a pool of information.

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Flamewielder]

Terraneaux wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...
So there you have it: Samara has access to a knowledge base that likely includes all asari law-enforcement agencies (essentially, anything these law-enforcement can gather from contacts, tips, undercover agents, etc...), in addition to her personal knowledge of criminal investigation/forensics.

That's not what the codex says.

What it says is that every Justicar is an extremely highly trained professional in a violent profession before they even get to joining the organization.  It says nothing about Justicars having some secret 'information network' that only they can access or something.  

Law-enforcement databases are not secret in the sense of a Shadow Broker-type system. Their access is restricted to lawfully appointed law-enforcement officers, which Justicars happen to be. Should Samara request access to Illium police datafiles, she'll get it. When the Codex mentions a "collective body of knowledge that exceeds that of Spectres", I'm reading that Samara and other Justicars share information and tips among eachother, even though they work alone. The definition of "collective" (as per the Free Webster Mirriam dictionnary) states that the adjective "collective" indicates that this body of information is "shared or assumed by all members of a group". Precious little is revealed about Justicars. Who trains them? If they are self-trained, why would training have such a high fatality rate? Who records Oaths? Deontological ethics sometimes create ambiguity, possibly leading to 2 Justicars viewing a case differently for different reasons. How would such conflict be adjudicated? We simply don't know.

Granted, we never see Samara accessing such a database in game. I can also assure you I've never see her take a leak, read a book, or eat anything, but it stands to reason that she does, at some point. So nothing in the game precludes the existence of a Justicar information database, just as law enforcement agencies have similar databases. The Justicar Order predates most modern asari law enforcement bodies, so it is likely their historical record goes back pretty far.

Similarily, if Samara is able to query this database remotely, it also makes it possible for the likes of the Shadow Broker to spy on it... as the asari government itself does. As for managing such a database, we do not know what the few Justicars who reach the matriarch age do once they no longer can do field work... Do they go out into the Terminus systems to "bring Law to the Lawless"? Or do they assume clerical responsibilities, along with surviving candidate who failed in their training but still want to serve the Code? Interesting to speculate...

[Ashira Shepard]

It's just brilliant to see how people view Samara. Really, it is.



[/sarcasm]

[Kudara]

A lot of people don't like paladin's either, it's the same issue usually. They can't understand following something to the extent that you let it dictate your life.

Personally I would never make that choice either. I'd never give up my own moral sense for something outside of myself. On the other hand I have no need to run into the ground those who make that choice.

Offhand I'd say that somehow Samara's character threatens them, otherwise I just can't see why some people have an overwhelming need to go from thread to thread talking about how horrible she and her code are.

I don't like Morinth, but I don't feel the need to jump into every thread and go on an on about how she makes my skin crawl.

Modifié par Kudara, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[Flamewielder]

AshiraShepard wrote...
It's just brilliant to see how people view Samara. Really, it is.
[/sarcasm]

I guess that's why Humanities and Ethics classes are so unpopular nowadays... *sigh*

While priests and monks do swear an vow of poverty, their order still has to feed them and put a roof over their heads. Justicars bequeath all their personal posessions save arms and armor (and biotic amps and omni-tool), the rest being:

Donated to charity?
Donated to the Order itself?

What happens to the candidates who failed their training but survived, maimed or otherwise? Are there "lay sisters" in the Justicar order, providing logistical support and intelligence? No indication is given that this is the case, but they are interesting avenues to explore in fan art or fan fiction, for example... 

To judge Samara as being amoral takes a pretty shallow view of the character. To judge her unethical depends on what your personal notion of ethics is. If one argues that ethics depend on written law (deontology), then Samara is utterly ethical.

Samara never quotes the Code and we never see any of it. All we have to judge it's relative qualities/flaws is a few Codex entries and some in-game dialogue with a few asari police officers who all agree that Samara is within her rights to act as she does. The nature of the asari goverment and its monitoring of Justicars suggest the majority of the asrai population agrees with the police officers' views. A religious oligarchy may stone a woman for adultery but no modern democratic society would consider this justice. The asari ARE a democracy and as such are unlikely to condone such an abuse of authority and barbarous treatment of a sentient being...

[7Makaveli]

yorkj86 wrote...

In the interesting of bumping, here's a link to a thread, where there are Samara-related things to talk about:

"What does Morinth's SB dossier say?"

I see one person likening Samara's code to Hammurabi's Code, another unable to connect the dots to Nef's murder, and another not understanding the difference between killing and murdering.

A real funhouse over there

[Ashira Shepard]

Its mak! He can make us sane again!



I just...I don't understand people who think that way about her. I don't think she's utterly perfect even being the fangirl that I am, I can easily find myself at odds with seeing the world in black and white because I believe strongly in grey, it plays a huge part in most of my stories. Probably more so that I like the idea of second chances...



*sigh* Oh well.

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
Okay, Flamewielder, why isn't it out-of-character for Samara to attack Renegade Shepard? You said you'd discuss it, here.

 Just following the mods' recommendations...

I disagreed insofar as Samara cannot predict the future. While Samara gives us no details about her encounter with Nihlus, it is likely that Nihlus put the innocent bystander in clear and immediate danger of dying if Samara didn't stop to rescue him/her. For example: pushing an elderly man in a river where he would drown if not rescued.

Killing a psycho renegade Shepard doesn't necessarily condemn the Galaxy. Samara doesn't know we (the players) know we'll save the Galaxy in ME3... The immediate threat (i.e. the Collectors) has been dealt with. For all she knows, the Reapers will be dragging their cybernetic butts back to the Galaxy for the next 500-1000 years... plenty of time to find another good, decent sentient being to lead the fight against them. I think Samara deals with the present and with facts, not speculation and "what if's".

So, if the Collector threat is dealt with but Shepard left a long trail of maimed/murdered innocents on his way to victory, he/she'll get what's coming to him/her... Samara can always turn her *__* on some other alliance hero!

EDIT: I don't think Terranneaux ever admitted to it and I never perceived his interventions as particularly "trollish". We have been civil in our dissaggreement and I enjoy debating with him. One must be willing to accept his/her ideas to be challenged, that's how one becomes enlightened...

This virtue ethics vs deonthology debate has been going on for centuries, so I don't expect we'll resolve it any time soon... but the the debate is healthy in and of itself, as it helps the individual to define what virtue is, and though this, make our society's rules/laws as fair as we can make them.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 15 septembre 2010 - 09:09 .

[DOYOURLABS]

I think the Samara misunderstanding is based on her missions and the lack of a romance. 

In her missions, she is shown as a ruthless hunter, trying to kill her own daughter for having a disease. If the player decides not to delve any deep than that, they won't figure out the justifications for it. 

As for the romance, it's my belief that most people go "Hey look, asari with huge boobs! Virtual sex time." and skip through her dialogue. And when she rejects you they go " She doesn't give herself up to Shepard, she's cold and unfeeling!" 

That's my opinion anyway