13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
We didn't think that Samara would like Chaotic Good characters like Robin Hood because his means to an end is breaking laws.  She might say that it's not Robin Hood's place to do that.  She probably wouldn't blame the people for letting themselves get in to a position where they are at the mercy of a wholly corrupt government.  She likely would blame the politicians themselves, and whoever it is whose job it is to protect the innocent.

I'm not sure I completely agree, york...

It's mostly speculation of course, but for the Codex to cover "all" situations in only 5000 sutras suggests that it is very focused and that the Codex notion of "Justice" doesn't necessarily equate "Law". We do know that the Code aims towards "Protecting the Innocent & Punishing the Unjust" in that order. We know this because it is apparently the priority followed by Samara in her encounter with Nihlus and again when she remains behind to care for the orphaned children of the village after being forced into killing their parents (in self-defense).

This emphasis on protecting the innocent/punishing the unjust suggests that an "unjust" person is someone who violates the Code, whose highest priority is protecting the innocent from harm. It suggests that the Code is more preoccupied with preserving innocent lives and protecting them from "the unjust" than prosecuting thieves, con artists, drunken drivers (unless they killed or hurt some innocent), etc...

In the example of Robin Hood, who stole from lawfully appointed royal sheriff to feed a starving peasantry, I rather think Samara would deem the King "unjust" for raising taxes to the point his subjects were left to die of famine and approve of Robin's efforts to protect the innocent...

By concerning itself strictly with protecting the innocent from bodily harm (and possibly psychological mistreatment) the Code can be far simpler in application than asari law as a whole (which would include civil law, criminal law, judicial process, etc...). In this respect, Samara would not object to indentured labor (i.e. slavery) as long as the "slave" was well-cared for and had entered into the indenture willingly. But should the master ever abuse the situation, he would be considered "unjust". Asari do not want to be "unjust"... bad stuff happens when you're "unjust" around Samara...

This preoccupation with protecting the innocent would explain why Samara chose human example of knights and samurai, who are both a product of a feudal political system. In the feudal system, peasants relied on knights/samurai for protection against bandits, hostile soldiers or wild animals. In return, the peasants were expected to provide for the knight/samurai through kind or labor. A fine system as long as no one abuses it... But it is likely Samara was referring to the idealized versions of human litterature and not the crude reality...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 13 octobre 2010 - 09:30 .

[7Makaveli]

Continuing on the Samara vs Joker wavelength, it almost seems Samara is a different kind of superhero trope, one with all the righteousness of a Superman, the sophistication of a Batman, but the tolerance of a Punisher. Where most superheroes would detain a villain, Samara would kill them. That's where the comparison ends, and most likely is the one inconsistency that most struggle with and attribute to a kind of flaw of psychopathy in the character XD



Its probably been mentioned but Samara is the only character I can picture a kind of graphic novel/comic series being based around. She's had plenty of her own exploits with the galaxy's most prolific criminals and mass murderers in her 400 years of Justicar-ing I'm sure, only a fraction of which we know of. You don't chase a conniving predator through dark worlds around the galaxy for centuries without running into other equally conniving monsters. The only other character that would have a similarly eventful and dark track record (without Shepard) would be Jack. See, you don't always have to reach to make comparisons between the two

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

7Makaveli wrote...

Continuing on the Samara vs Joker wavelength, it almost seems Samara is a different kind of superhero trope, one with all the righteousness of a Superman, the sophistication of a Batman, but the tolerance of a Punisher. Where most superheroes would detain a villain, Samara would kill them. That's where the comparison ends, and most likely is the one inconsistency that most struggle with and attribute to a kind of flaw of psychopathy in the character XD

Its probably been mentioned but Samara is the only character I can picture a kind of graphic novel/comic series being based around. She's had plenty of her own exploits with the galaxy's most prolific criminals and mass murderers in her 400 years of Justicar-ing I'm sure, only a fraction of which we know of. You don't chase a conniving predator through dark worlds around the galaxy for centuries without running into other equally conniving monsters. The only other character that would have a similarly eventful and dark track record (without Shepard) would be Jack. See, you don't always have to reach to make comparisons between the two

The biggest problem for Samara against Joker would be if he ever start doing the same trick as Nihlus did. Always having civilian lifes at stake so Samara is compelled to save them instead of chasing him.

[7Makaveli]

Lizardviking wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Continuing on the Samara vs Joker wavelength, it almost seems Samara is a different kind of superhero trope, one with all the righteousness of a Superman, the sophistication of a Batman, but the tolerance of a Punisher. Where most superheroes would detain a villain, Samara would kill them. That's where the comparison ends, and most likely is the one inconsistency that most struggle with and attribute to a kind of flaw of psychopathy in the character XD

Its probably been mentioned but Samara is the only character I can picture a kind of graphic novel/comic series being based around. She's had plenty of her own exploits with the galaxy's most prolific criminals and mass murderers in her 400 years of Justicar-ing I'm sure, only a fraction of which we know of. You don't chase a conniving predator through dark worlds around the galaxy for centuries without running into other equally conniving monsters. The only other character that would have a similarly eventful and dark track record (without Shepard) would be Jack. See, you don't always have to reach to make comparisons between the two

The biggest problem for Samara against Joker would be if he ever start doing the same trick as Nihlus did. Always having civilian lifes at stake so Samara is compelled to save them instead of chasing him.

Indeed, as I said earlier Joker is a master manipulator and would have even more "fun" with Samara than he does with Batman, mostly because of the restrictiveness of the Code. However, he would have to protect himself quite surely, otherwise Samara would tear him up on sight.

[adriano_c]

7Makaveli wrote...

the sophistication of a Batman

Is Batman a sophisticated character?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

7Makaveli wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

Continuing on the Samara vs Joker wavelength, it almost seems Samara is a different kind of superhero trope, one with all the righteousness of a Superman, the sophistication of a Batman, but the tolerance of a Punisher. Where most superheroes would detain a villain, Samara would kill them. That's where the comparison ends, and most likely is the one inconsistency that most struggle with and attribute to a kind of flaw of psychopathy in the character XD

Its probably been mentioned but Samara is the only character I can picture a kind of graphic novel/comic series being based around. She's had plenty of her own exploits with the galaxy's most prolific criminals and mass murderers in her 400 years of Justicar-ing I'm sure, only a fraction of which we know of. You don't chase a conniving predator through dark worlds around the galaxy for centuries without running into other equally conniving monsters. The only other character that would have a similarly eventful and dark track record (without Shepard) would be Jack. See, you don't always have to reach to make comparisons between the two

The biggest problem for Samara against Joker would be if he ever start doing the same trick as Nihlus did. Always having civilian lifes at stake so Samara is compelled to save them instead of chasing him.

Indeed, as I said earlier Joker is a master manipulator and would have even more "fun" with Samara than he does with Batman, mostly because of the restrictiveness of the Code. However, he would have to protect himself quite surely, otherwise Samara would tear him up on sight.

True. If Joker ever got "cornered" by Samara, it's game over. But he could easily manipulate the code to his advantage. Like in the movies, he could constantly tempt her to break the code, forsake the civilian lives and go directly after the kill.

[Flamewielder]

Lizardviking wrote...
True. If Joker ever got "cornered" by Samara, it's game over. But he could easily manipulate the code to his advantage. Like in the movies, he could constantly tempt her to break the code, forsake the civilian lives and go directly after the kill.

Whereas a Spectre like Saren would blow up whatever school, hospital, power plant, refinery, ship the Joker was on if he was told to stop him...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Flamewielder wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
True. If Joker ever got "cornered" by Samara, it's game over. But he could easily manipulate the code to his advantage. Like in the movies, he could constantly tempt her to break the code, forsake the civilian lives and go directly after the kill.

Whereas a Spectre like Saren would blow up whatever school, hospital, power plant, refinery, ship the Joker was on if he was told to stop him...

Ends justify the means.

But it wouldn't make for a very dramatic story.

[7Makaveli]

adriano_c wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

the sophistication of a Batman

Is Batman a sophisticated character?

I'd say so.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

yorkj86 wrote...

Was Morinth given adequate development as a character?  In another thread, people are discussing how they would rewrite certain loyalty missions in order to make them better. 

Someone mentioned that they would have made Morinth a more powerful biotic than Samara, to give the player more reason to choose Morinth over Samara in the confrontation.  I argued that that's not necessary.   Instead, more attention should have been given to developing Morinth's character. 

As it is, when Morinth isn't pretending to be her mother, or eating Shepard's soul, she's belly-aching about Samara.   That doesn't make her a particularly memorable character, to me. 

Samara, apart from her character, tells us more about the asari, the Justicars, the Code, the Ardat-Yakshi, asari values, how at least one asari views humans, and she does all of this while putting her own spin on things, in accordance with her character.  That's one reason I like Samara so much.

What do people think?

I think the better solution would be to give her actuel conversation instead of the same 5 recycleable dialog options, and make the choice between her and Samara less one-sided.

[7Makaveli]

yorkj86 wrote...

Was Morinth given adequate development as a character?  In another thread, people are discussing how they would rewrite certain loyalty missions in order to make them better. 

Someone mentioned that they would have made Morinth a more powerful biotic than Samara, to give the player more reason to choose Morinth over Samara in the confrontation.  I argued that that's not necessary.   Instead, more attention should have been given to developing Morinth's character. 

As it is, when Morinth isn't pretending to be her mother, or eating Shepard's soul, she's belly-aching about Samara.   That doesn't make her a particularly memorable character, to me. 

Samara, apart from her character, tells us more about the asari, the Justicars, the Code, the Ardat-Yakshi, asari values, how at least one asari views humans, and she does all of this while putting her own spin on things, in accordance with her character.  That's one reason I like Samara so much.

What do people think?

I agree with you, York, that more development was needed on that front. If she is supposed to be so deviously manipulative, it shouldn't seem so logically easier to choose Samara over her. Apparently she puts some "mind control" on you when you don't pick the Renegade or Paragon speech at the end that knocks your focus, but other than that there is no instilled bit of sympathy or justifiable logic to choose her other than "lets see what happens if I choose the bad guy"


Edit: JD got banned?

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 15 octobre 2010 - 04:27 .

[7Makaveli]

yorkj86 wrote...

7Makaveli wrote...

I agree with you, York, that more development was needed on that front. If she is supposed to be so deviously manipulative, it shouldn't seem so logically easier to choose Samara over her. Apparently she puts some "mind control" on you when you don't pick the Renegade or Paragon speech at the end that knocks your focus, but other than that there is no instilled bit of sympathy or justifiable logic to choose her other than "lets see what happens if I choose the bad guy"


Edit: JD got banned?

They developed so much of Samara's character, and so little of Morinth's character.  What the heck will Bioware do with Morinth in ME3, that they can possibly spare time for, without traveling too far from the task of wrapping up the trilogy?  I think Morinth will just vanish, that mentioned in an off-handed way.

And no, JD didn't get banned.  I sent you a message, Makaveli.

Yea I'm not too sure what they will do with such an undeveloped character, but after all, she can still survive at the end of the game, and that's as much as all the other characters can do.

[Terraneaux]

7Makaveli wrote...

Continuing on the Samara vs Joker wavelength, it almost seems Samara is a different kind of superhero trope, one with all the righteousness of a Superman, the sophistication of a Batman, but the tolerance of a Punisher. Where most superheroes would detain a villain, Samara would kill them. That's where the comparison ends, and most likely is the one inconsistency that most struggle with and attribute to a kind of flaw of psychopathy in the character XD

Batman and the Punisher are actually quite similar - thematically, they're both dark antihero types.  It's also exactly what Samara *should* be, but the writer took the tack of 'Samara killing/torturing=paragon, Shepard killing/torturing=renegade.'  She's not held to the same moral standard as other characters in the game, like Garrus for example.  

[kelmar6821]

What happened to JD? and the samara offtopic group?

[DOYOURLABS]

Wait what happend? The off topic thing is gone.



And I like the analogy 'Samara killing/torturing=paragon, Shepard killing/torturing=renegade.'



That was my one problem with Samara's character. She was made to seem like she was homicidal hypocrite. I always thought it was because they wanted some people to choose Morinth.

[JThompson6577]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Wait what happend? The off topic thing is gone.

And I like the analogy 'Samara killing/torturing=paragon, Shepard killing/torturing=renegade.'

That was my one problem with Samara's character. She was made to seem like she was homicidal hypocrite. I always thought it was because they wanted some people to choose Morinth.

She's not a hypocrite.  She says early on when Shepard brings up mercy; The Justicars do not exist to protect the innocent, they exist to punish the wicked.

It may not seem like it, but those are two radically different things.

Modifié par JThompson6577, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:38 .

[DOYOURLABS]

JThompson6577 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Wait what happend? The off topic thing is gone.

And I like the analogy 'Samara killing/torturing=paragon, Shepard killing/torturing=renegade.'

That was my one problem with Samara's character. She was made to seem like she was homicidal hypocrite. I always thought it was because they wanted some people to choose Morinth.

She's not a hypocrite.  She says early on when Shepard brings up mercy; The Justicars do not exist to protect the innocent, they exist to punish the wicked.

It may not seem like it, but those are two radically different things.

I know, but for people that didn't read carefully/didn't care to learn about the character, that's the way it seems. And actually its the opposite. In the situation with nihlus, she let him go to save an innocent. 

Modifié par DOYOURLABS, 16 octobre 2010 - 01:47 .

[JThompson6577]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

JThompson6577 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Wait what happend? The off topic thing is gone.

And I like the analogy 'Samara killing/torturing=paragon, Shepard killing/torturing=renegade.'

That was my one problem with Samara's character. She was made to seem like she was homicidal hypocrite. I always thought it was because they wanted some people to choose Morinth.

She's not a hypocrite.  She says early on when Shepard brings up mercy; The Justicars do not exist to protect the innocent, they exist to punish the wicked.

It may not seem like it, but those are two radically different things.

I know, but for people that didn't read carefully/didn't care to learn about the character, that's the way it seems. And actually its the opposite. In the situation with nihlus, she let him go to save an innocent. 

Nihlis created a situation where her actions could harm an innocent.  That was a violation of the code and compelled her to let him go.  They will protect the innocent but that's not what they are for.

The exact quote escapes me but she does say in the conversation about the Justicars that the Code exists to "punish the wicked."