13634 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

Then again, not everyone is convinced that Shepard is the only person able to save the Galaxy... WE know (as the players). TIM believed it enough to sink 4 billion credits into Lazarus... But the Council obviously doesn't share that belief. For all they know, Shepard could be delusional, perhaps brain-damaged by his/her interaction with the Prothean beacon in ME1. And the more Shepard rants about the "Reapers", the more he sounds like that poor addled scientist you meet at the start of ME1.

Samara is likely convinced paragon Shep is a good person. She can also be convinced renegade Shep should be put down as an unjust person, according to the Code...

But any person attacking Shepard without just cause is "unjust". In some cases, it could be argued that the enemies are actually enforcing some legitimate "No Trespassing" rule, but those are in the minority.

Also, to clarify my perception expressed in my previous post:

Laws vary according to the land you visit. Early pre-spaceflight asari city states likely had similar laws with some local variations which the Justicars would have had to deal with. In order for the Code to be universally accepted/tolerated, it must also include a mean for the Justicar to apply the Code while minimizing conflict with local authority. The Oath of Subsumation appears to serve this purpose: if the local ruler(s) is judged to be well-intentionned ("just") according to set criteria, the Justicar is allowed to swear an Oath of Subsumation to smooth potential conflict with "imperfect but working towards the Code's purpose" local authorities.

Similarily, local jurisdictions likely made provisions for interactions with Justicars, something facilitated by the Justicar's obligation to "register with local authorities". By doing so, they allow their actions/decisions to be documented so that law enforcement officers can legitimately accept the Justicar's judgement (as opposed to taking for granted the word of some random vigilante). In ancient days, this might have involved the issuance of a "letter of marque" to the visiting Justicar by the local rulership, signifying the rulers' acceptance and recognition of the Justicar's authority.

In Samara's specific case on Illium, Samara's word was enough to render two questionably aquired pieces of evidence receivable in court (i.e. proof of Pitne For's smuggling activities, and incrimination of Dakni Kur's murderess, Elnora).

The reason Samara did not swear an Oath of Subsummation to the Illium's "top cop" (something that would have saved them a LOT of trouble) is likely that Illium authorities (with its morally questionnable "laws") were not judged to be "just", allowing innocents to be exploited because the missed the fine print or a deliberate loophole in the countract they signed, etc... Still, local law-enforcement accepted her judgement even after being ordered to hold her against her will.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 11 novembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Kudara]

Since I'm currently playing Fallout: Las Vegas and just completed this mission.  I think she would agree with my character's actions.  Hills and a sniper are bad news for slaving scum like Cesar's Legions   I freed the NCR troops after sniping every legionarre in the camp and then sneaking into the hq and killing the three who were hiding there.

  Find peace in the embrace of the Goddess...

Flamewielder wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...
What would Samara do with the snipers, though, if she witnessed them killing their own men?

I guess it would depend on wether the Code considers enlisted soldiers as "innocents". An enlisted soldier consciously puts himself in a situation that will force him/her to kill someone (another soldier, in most cases). If a state of war exists between two asari republics, are their soldiers considered unjust for killing the other republic's soldiers?

Because Justicars exist to protect the innocent, I doubt they would interfere in military matters as long as civilians are not involved. We have little information to go on in such a situation, and I doubt the writers bothered writing the actual 5000 sutras... 

Would Samara attempt to rescue a NCR hostage being tortured? I think so. Would it be because the Code demands it in that situation? I don't think so. 

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
Not all personnel involved in military operations are enlisted, or soldiers, for that matter.  Where does the Code draw the line at "combatant", and "civilian contributing to war efforts"?

To bring up a controversial topic that persists even to this day, let's say Samara were aboard the Enola Gay when its bombadier had his hand on the lever to drop "Little Boy".  Would she do anything?  Why, or why not?  Would she spare the soldier, but instead execute whoever gave the command to drop "Little Boy"?  Of course, Earth would be out of her jurisdiction, so let's say that, for this scenario, Samara does have jurisdiction on Earth, for some reason.

Well, from a purely "protect the innocent" point of view, she could try and prevent the A-bomb drop. The reasoning being that destroying a city will kill injure children (i.e. minors) who cannot legally condone or oppose their country's war effort, even if a formal state of war existed between the US and Japan at the time. We must also keep in mind that asari wage war differently than humans. Culturally, there is no such thing as "total war" among asari (i.e. a war that involves civilians). Asari commandos and hunters target the opposition's leaders and key assets. It is very focussed and surgical. Asari wars are more alike to Mob wars between criminal cartels, where the family heads and capos are the targets, followed by their sources of income (drug labs, front businesses, etc...).

Humans have fully embraced "total war", with the Battle of Britain and the firebombing of northern Germany being non-nuclear examples of military actions deliberately targeting civilians. The nuclear bombing of Japan was viewed the same way by the Allies. In all three cases, civilian deaths were not the result of "collateral damage", civilians were the primary target. It happened to be a successful strategy in the case of Japan, but didn't work in the case of Britain or Germany (with the German Wehrmarcht fighting until Hitler's death and the fall of Berlin in 1944).

Again, without knowing if the Code has specific provisions for war situations, such questions are best left alone with asari genetics...

[Flamewielder]

yorkj86 wrote...
This whole notion that the asari can't fight a conventional war seems like a silly conceit of the plot, forced in to being in order to make the asari seem even more reliant on other species than they need to be.  They exist in city-states, but cooperative city-states are powerful.  They practice a pure democracy.  They have the largest population of any species.  They have the most powerful economy of all species.  They have the most territory of all species.  They have the best technology research companies of all species.  But they can't fight a conventional war, because...?  They're no more physically fragile than humans.   Is it because they're obstinate, and think that heavy armor restricts their usage of biotics?    Is it because they prefer to use biotics over weapons?    Being a biotic doesn't mean you can't be trained with a weapon, too.  Look at Samara.
I don't even know.

Well... there's plenty of asari in both games that fight with armor, including a certain asari Spectre, and they all use weapons. I could point out that salarians also use weapons and don't fight wars exclusively with genetic engineering and bio-weapons...

The difference between asari and humans (as defined by the creators of the ME universe) is a philosophical one. The same can be said of salarians, who consider a formal declaration of war to be utter nonsense: if you're gonna wage war, the WORST possible thing you can do is let the enemy know in advance... Salarians would applaud the japanese WWII military for attacking Pear Harbor BEFORE issuing their war declaration. They would probably also have sent assassins to try and take out the US government too... Salarians have no problem with "total war" and are perhaps even more ruthless than Humans in their approach towards war and armed conflict: they uplifted the Krogan species to fight the Rachni into extection, then sterilized most of the remaining Krogans when they got troublesome...

Yes, insofar as ME is a fictional universe, EVERYTHING in it is contrived to some level. Asari seek compromise and agreement because it is the way they've always done things. They see "total war" as a huge waste of resources. Most asari vs asari conflicts are resolved through negociation or, failing that, subterfuge and assassination. That doesn't mean they are too weak to to fight a stand-up fight when they are forced into one (by an alien species, for instance). Their individual martial prowess is not in question, as Samara and a large number of Eclipse vanguards demonstrate in ME2. Their whole approach to war is a matter of preference, not lack of ability.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 13 novembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

This whole notion that the asari can't fight a conventional war seems like a silly conceit of the plot, forced in to being in order to make the asari seem even more reliant on other species than they need to be.  They exist in city-states, but cooperative city-states are powerful.  They practice a pure democracy.  They have the largest population of any species.  They have the most powerful economy of all species.  They have the most territory of all species.  They have the best technology research companies of all species.  But they can't fight a conventional war, because...?  They're no more physically fragile than humans.   Is it because they're obstinate, and think that heavy armor restricts their usage of biotics?    Is it because they prefer to use biotics over weapons?    Being a biotic doesn't mean you can't be trained with a weapon, too.  Look at Samara.

I don't even know.

Three words: military-industrial complex.

Infact, from what we've seen, they largely lack an industrial complex in general. Large parts of Asari space remains littered with 'villages' that Justicars can go through, their biotic amps, while galaxy-leading, remain hand-crafted, and we pick up a lot of inefficiencies in their system, such as putting so much investment in the Destiny Ascension in the first place. A great deal of Asari power comes from unique, high-quality, but extremely limited over-investment.

Otherwise? Why bother? A credit spent on weapons is a credin not used to build a house on Illium, buy food on the Citadel, or create a museum on Thessia. Every cent on war capability is a dollar not used elsewhere... and some people prefer to use it elsewhere.



It's hardly unique, though. It's similar to, say, the state of most western countries right now. Consider Europe: more people than the US, more economy than the US, arguably more and more diverse culture than the US, more democratic than the US... and the extreme military inferior to the US. Economy and size are not enough: you need a political will, an accepted institution, and infrastructure.

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Economy and size are not enough: you need a political will, an accepted institution, and infrastructure.

Precisely. And when you look at it, further, institution and infrastructure also require political will, which in turn requires a necessity.

Consider how Aria co-opted Patriarch's organization. Yes, she defeated him in combat. But most if not all of his cohorts were already Aria's by the time the fight took place. The thing about long-lived species is they can afford to be patient and if you have the advantage of being able to "seduce" any other species, you can manipulate/co-opt enemy governments, institutions... The asari excel in this.

As Sun Tzu wrote, the best warrior is the one who achieves victory even before drawing his sword. Asari rarely need to go to war. As far as we know, the last time was during the Krogan Rebellions.They simply find "total war" counter-productive, a waste of otherwise useable resources.

[Xilizhra]

I'm curious now: what's the general opinion about Morinth in this thread?

[Dean_the_Young]

yorkj86 wrote...

It's certainly no mistake that the asari share similarities with the ancient Greeks, in terms of political organization.  Thus, you could say that the asari are like the European countries - numerous, old, decentralized, but powerful together.  The comparison falters on the virtual pure democracy bit, since the E.U. doesn't have that kind of power.  It's an economic union before it's a political one, though those lines blur.  I guess that asari who share Matriarch Aethyta's persuasion, that the asari need to be as competitive as the shorter-lived species, would be the equivalent of advocates of the E.U. as a full government.  The asari would be all-powerful if they moved as fast as the salarians and the humans, that much is certain.

Since the European countries aren't powerful together, the bigger problem with the comparison is the underlying assumption that they should be powerful together. Even in ancient history, the greatest reason the unified greek city states were able to beat Persia was that a few of them (Athens especially) kept large professional navies to break Persia's power projection capabilities.

If the Asari moved as fast as the Salarians began acting like humans, they'd turn the galaxy against them within a decade. They certainly wouldn't be all powerful: they don't come close to outweighing other galactic powers, let alone the galaxy, in either economics or population, and they have half their military power invested in one ship.

[Flamewielder]

"Morinth is a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one."
The character itself suffers from being a "incomplete" in the sense that she is written mostly as a supporting character to Samara's own story.
In vampire stories, the lead vampire characters usually end up one of three ways:

They somehow get cured,
They somehow redeem themselves through self-sacrifice.
They wholly embrace the monster within, universe be damned

Morinth couldn't get cured, refused option 2 and embraced option 3. While Samara understands why Morinth ran and regrets the sad necessity of her beloved daughter's death, Morinth shows little understanding of her dead mother, something you'd expect from a rebellious teen but not from a grown woman.

Maybe I'm just biased, being a parent and of middle-age myself, but Samara's plight resonated with me far more than Morinth, who essentially comes off as a selfish child unable to make her peace with the way things are. Part of adolescence is learning about the world and finding your place in it, aquiring the wisdom to accept the things you cannot change and the strenght to change the ones you can. Morinth never aquired either. Tragedy was the only possible outcome.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:18 .

[Flamewielder]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since the European countries aren't powerful together, the bigger problem with the comparison is the underlying assumption that they should be powerful together. Even in ancient history, the greatest reason the unified greek city states were able to beat Persia was that a few of them (Athens especially) kept large professional navies to break Persia's power projection capabilities.
If the Asari moved as fast as the Salarians began acting like humans, they'd turn the galaxy against them within a decade. They certainly wouldn't be all powerful: they don't come close to outweighing other galactic powers, let alone the galaxy, in either economics or population, and they have half their military power invested in one ship.

If we are looking at human parallels to the asari of the ME universe, I think China shares more similarities. China has had no need to flex its military might since the Korean War and the annexation of Tibet in the 1950's. It has been present on the UN Security Council and has maintained either a neutral or conciliatory attitude on the international front.
Yes, China is more of an oligarchy than a democracy. Its strong centralized government has a tight hand on anything regarding foreign relations and investment. They maintain tight control over anything that gives them a commercial advantage, including currency. They have a sizeable military, but its focused on self-defense (and controlling its population) and has little in the way of power projection beyond its nuclear capability. They do not have soldiers in Afganistan, nor fleets in the Persian Gulf... yet they have strong economical presence all over the world.
As much as we may question the morality of their Human Rights record, none may question their commercial success, an internal prosperity and development achieved without the need for a conventional war. So when I look at asari, I have no trouble imagining how/why they don't appear to value conventional military might (as Turians or Humans view it) yet achieve commercial/diplomatical success.

How does this relate to Samara? Not sure. As stimulating at this discussion is, it would be more suited in the Campaign/Storyline Discussion forum...

Modifié par Flamewielder, 13 novembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

China flexed its muscles plenty since the 50's. It curb stomped India in the Sino-Indian War border dispute, supported plenty of rather nasty foreign insurgencies, and more than once has gotten into border disputes with its neighbors, including trading shelling with the Soviet Union. They've maintained a million man army (2.25 now) for decades. It's just that China's muscles for the most part haven't been that big, their power projection has been atrocious for decades, and limited into an immediate region it hasn't been strong enough to dominate.



I really don't see many similarities, besides general point that 'not everyone is the Turians.'

[Xilizhra]

Flamewielder wrote...

"Morinth is a tragic figure, but not a sympathetic one."
The character itself suffers from being a "incomplete" in the sense that she is written mostly as a supporting character to Samara's own story.
In vampire stories, the lead vampire characters usually end up one of three ways:

They somehow get cured,
They somehow redeem themselves through self-sacrifice.
They wholly embrace the monster within, universe be damned

Morinth couldn't get cured, refused option 2 and embraced option 3. While Samara understands why Morinth ran and regrets the sad necessity of her beloved daughter's death, Morinth shows little understanding of her dead mother, something you'd expect from a rebellious teen but not from a grown woman.

Maybe I'm just biased, being a parent and of middle-age myself, but Samara's plight resonated with me far more than Morinth, who essentially comes off as a selfish child unable to make her peace with the way things are. Part of adolescence is learning about the world and finding your place in it, aquiring the wisdom to accept the things you cannot change and the strenght to change the ones you can. Morinth never aquired either. Tragedy was the only possible outcome.

It's interesting... though I wonder if Morinth ever really had a chance to make peace with the way things were, at least according to Samara. She tried to do so in a way that could make sense to her, because the alternative was unbearable. Since the desire for freedom is nearly as ingrained as that for self-preservation, and sometimes moreso, I wonder how fair it is to say that she's only being selfish.

[Flamewielder]

What I'm saying is, in Morinth's view, her personal freedom was more valuable than the lives she would eventually end up extinguishing. Yes, her condition was out of her control and she couldn't do anything about it. But her choice of running rather than accepting the alternative (however grim and hard that could be) is ultimately a selfish one, as her rebellion was not limited to finding a safe, comfortable place to live in peace. She knew what she was (as best as asari medical science could explain) and embraced it. She mated and killed and eventually became addicted.

She IS a victim of the way she was written. Her story can either be a tragic one (i.e. she dies at the hands of her heartbroken mother) or a sinister one (she's loosed on the galaxy with no Justicar dogging her every step).

I find her an interesting character (I like a good vampire story as much as the next geek), but hardly a sympathetic one. To have Shepard choose her (beyond than for the metagaming reason of unlocking her loyalty power) stretches credibility, even for a renegade Shepard (unless one plays him/her as a lunatic). At least, Samara's lethality is easily directed.

[Xilizhra]

It seemed to me like she was already addicted before she was given the option of imprisonment, from the way it was talked about...



Also, it's not that hard. A Renegade Shepard who doesn't want Samara to hunt him down or a Paragon horrified by the excesses of the justicar code could both do it, the latter because Morinth's body count is probably smaller. Or, in my case once, a somewhat mentally unstable Paragon who thought for a moment that Morinth was Liara and Samara was Benezia... but that was the beginning of a fanfic involving a rather heavily massaged version of canon wherein extreme circumstances could lead one to be able to survive the AY mindrape, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
It seemed to me like she was already addicted before she was given the option of imprisonment, from the way it was talked about...

There IS an apparent contradiction in the canon: it is stated that the A-Y condition manifests at puberty and is undetectable prior to this. It is unclear if an A-Y becomes utterly addicted immediately after the first "hit" or if the addiction takes more than a single mating to develop.

Now, unless Samara's daughters were all diagnosed at the same time through routine medical exams (possible, in such an advanced civilization), it IS possible that Morinth (being the eldest) could have accidentally killed her first girlfriend and thus could have become addicted at that point, prior to the diagnostic.

Such a scenario is a much more poignant one and opens up a world of possibilities for fan fiction: What was Samara's initial reaction? Did she initially try to hide Mirala's condition in the hope of giving her a chance at a normal life (even if that made her an accomplice after the fact to manslaughter)? Is her Justicar Oath a form of pennance for this? With Morinth dead, is Samara now looking forward to dying in the line of duty and thus find her own "peace in the embrace of the Goddess"? Is this why she denies herself the opportunity of romantic involvement with Shepard?

The LotSB DLC suggests Samara's other daughters were sent into seclusion AFTER Morinth ran off; were they institutionalized immediately upon being diagnosed or only after Morinth decided to run?

If that's the case, it makes Morinth an even more tragic figure than she already is. She's still a serial killer, and thus raises little sympathy. The fact that she cannot stop herself from killing is tragic, and so is the fact that asari consider it more "humane" to kill an addicted A-Y than locking her up in isolation until withdrawal symptoms have her crack her skull open on the cell walls...

[Xilizhra]

She was the eldest? I could have sworn she was the youngest...



But yes, this is the kind of thing that produces the impulse to do fanfiction stuff that can somehow at least compensate for her condition.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
She was the eldest? I could have sworn she was the youngest...

But yes, this is the kind of thing that produces the impulse to do fanfiction stuff that can somehow at least compensate for her condition.

Indeed.

And to answer your unspoken question, I think the vast majority of the posters on this thread have no hate for Morinth. They obviously have more sympathy for Samara, otherwise they wouldn't even bother posting.  But insofar as Morinth is an inextricable part of Samara's character, she does enjoy a fair bit of discussion (and an ongoing fanfic by Ashira).

You could say Samara/Morinth is a the Janus of ME2...

[Xilizhra]

Ah, yes.



I still think it's a pity that one can't keep both of them alive.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I just wish Bioware did more to Morinth's character than just turn her into the secret squadmate that she is now, with the same 3 conversation options all the time.