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#12601
firest0rm

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Zeonae wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...

Dont forget that shes not just seeing Shep...she also sees Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi, Kelly, Joker and Co. They all form her opinion about the humans...I think she would feel confirmed about her "2 humans 4 Opinions" statement.

She sees that all humans are same anyway.Maybe except Shepard.


This confuses me a little, im not sure if you mean they are the same before the code or in the sense that humanity isnt very diverse. If you meant the former i agree and doubt any one else here would disagree with you but if its the later im pretty sure she says a line to the effect of "i like your people you are the most individualistic ive seen"  (forgive my paraphrasing i forget the actuall line) which would atleast in my opinion contradicts your opinion of how she vewis us.

Modifié par firest0rm, 17 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .


#12602
Flamewielder

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firest0rm wrote...

Zeonae wrote...

Captain Iglo wrote...
Dont forget that shes not just seeing Shep...she also sees Jacob, Miranda, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi, Kelly, Joker and Co. They all form her opinion about the humans...I think she would feel confirmed about her "2 humans 4 Opinions" statement.

She sees that all humans are same anyway.Maybe except Shepard.

This confuses me a little, im not sure if you mean they are the same before the code or in the sense that humanity isnt very diverse. If you meant the former i agree and doubt any one else here would disagree with you but if its the later im pretty sure she says a line to the effect of "i like your people you are the most individualistic ive seen"  (forgive my paraphrasing i forget the actuall line) which would atleast in my opinion contradicts your opinion of how she vewis us.

To clarify, I believe the original question was wether Samara's opinion of humans in general had changed from before joning the SR-2 to after completing the Suicide Mission.

I do not think it would have changed much. It might have improved a little if Shepard gave his crew a paragon slant or worsened a bit if Shepard gave it a renegade slant. It sounds as if her opinion initially was rather positive and her curiosity was piqued. She may actually find humanity's multiplicity of opinions quite entertaining, but it isn't stated explicitely.

#12603
firest0rm

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Ah, thank you for the clarification and i would (mostly) have to agree with your assessment. it would probably take a petty drastic decision, event, whatever for her to alter her opinion oh humans as  a species. Not sure i agree with the idea that a renegade/paragon could bump her opinion of us though. At most i think Shepards on either end of the spectrum would demonstrate humans potential for compassion and or ruthlessness (or however you define paragon/renegade/good/evil) to her rather than permanently shift her opinion of us.

Also on the topic of how she comments on her general opinion of humanity:  that was definitly one of my favorite parts of her dialogue and is somthing i definitly wouldnt mind bioware expanding on / implementing the other (alien) squadies :D

Modifié par firest0rm, 18 novembre 2010 - 02:34 .


#12604
7Makaveli

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:whistle:....

So I just watched "Book of Eli", and yes the main character reminded me of Samara :D

Lone wanderer who is on a mission guided by "old words"? Check.

Self-sacrifice? Check.

Resourceful and skilled with weapons? Check.

Virtuous inclinations? Check.

Is from another era? Check.

Has confidence and wisdom fueled by the "old words"? Check?

Determination and endurance to "stay on the righteous path"? Check.

Not afraid to kill anyone who steps in their path? Check.

Badass fighter? Check.

Thoughts? Comments? Bueller? :D

EDIT: for more! :D

Modifié par 7Makaveli, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:16 .


#12605
toastye weasel

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"I completely agree:wizard:

#12606
Guest_yorkj86_*

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I never saw "The Book of Eli".  If the "book" Denzel Washington's character is carrying is what it obviously(?) is, that's where the difference between him and Samara lies - the "source" of the authority.

I'm increasingly upset by the lack of fan-art depicting Samara and Judge Dredd interacting.  I was also recently made aware of Psi-Judge Anderson, who, while similar to Judge Dredd and Samara, is different from them, because she lets her feelings of doubt and remorse affect her actions.  Judge Anderson, being a Psi-Judge, has "psychic" powers.

Modifié par yorkj86, 22 novembre 2010 - 05:26 .


#12607
Zebron is reaL

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7Makaveli wrote...

:whistle:....

So I just watched "Book of Eli", and yes the main character reminded me of Samara :D

Lone wanderer who is on a mission guided by "old words"? Check.

Self-sacrifice? Check.

Resourceful and skilled with weapons? Check.

Virtuous inclinations? Check.

Is from another era? Check.

Has confidence and wisdom fueled by the "old words"? Check?

Determination and endurance to "stay on the righteous path"? Check.

Not afraid to kill anyone who steps in their path? Check.

Badass fighter? Check.

Thoughts? Comments? Bueller? :D

EDIT: for more! :D


I probably would not have responded if not for the fact that I was listening to the song playing at the end of The Book of Eli when I read your comment. Wierd coincidence, eh?

Anyway, now that you mention it, I definately see the connection. Denzel's character is basically a post-apocalyptic human justicar. Kinda.

#12608
Guest_yorkj86_*

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How responsible can we say Samara is for Morinth being an Ardat-Yakshi, insofar as asari/asari pairings have the very small chance to produce an Ardat-Yakshi?

I wouldn't say that Samara is responsible at all.  Humans can reasonably predict possible complications in their children by getting pedigrees and consulting with geneticists.  That would then bring us to the question of how responsible the parents are for their child's suffering, if they chose not to terminate the pregnancy if it was determined that the child would have a serious condition.

#12609
Xilizhra

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I wouldn't say that Samara is guilty for Morinth's condition, no.



I have, however, been thinking that the Code feels kind of like an example of moral cowardice, of ensuring that she never has to think for herself in moral situations again. Is there any reason she couldn't have just tried to track down Morinth as herself?

#12610
Guest_yorkj86_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

I wouldn't say that Samara is guilty for Morinth's condition, no.

I have, however, been thinking that the Code feels kind of like an example of moral cowardice, of ensuring that she never has to think for herself in moral situations again. Is there any reason she couldn't have just tried to track down Morinth as herself?


Probably not without the resources the Justicar Order grants to its members.  Biotics training, combat training, weapons training, sleuthing, and this array of information that exceeds even the resources of the Spectres, that Justicars are privy to.  Lastly, a stated task of the Justicar Order is to hunt down violent, fugitive Ardat-Yakshi, so it's not difficult to see why she would initially consider becoming a Justicar.

It's hard to say that Samara doesn't find some comfort in being a Justicar.  It's probably the emotional detachment being a Justicar allows her.

Modifié par yorkj86, 26 novembre 2010 - 04:45 .


#12611
Xilizhra

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I suppose it's understandable, her choice, but I don't think that that emotional detachment is a good thing; it's a moral detachment as well, in that she's ensured that she never needs to make a moral choice again--in her own mind, at least.

#12612
Guest_yorkj86_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

I suppose it's understandable, her choice, but I don't think that that emotional detachment is a good thing; it's a moral detachment as well, in that she's ensured that she never needs to make a moral choice again--in her own mind, at least.


Maybe so, but it's important to remember that she's not emotionally sterile.  She's still all-there, and she has to live with the consequences of her actions, mentally, as they are dictated by the Code. 

EDIT: I wouldn't go so far as to say that she's a prisoner in her own mind, but she's not a robot.

Modifié par yorkj86, 26 novembre 2010 - 04:56 .


#12613
Xilizhra

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She doesn't seem to carry any guilt over anything she does, though. Obviously, she doesn't have to, but since many of her actions could probably be considered evil, or at least excessive...

#12614
Guest_yorkj86_*

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Xilizhra wrote...

She doesn't seem to carry any guilt over anything she does, though. Obviously, she doesn't have to, but since many of her actions could probably be considered evil, or at least excessive...


"At last, I am free.  I am a ruined vessel of sorrow and regret, but I am free."

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I relish opportunities to post that picture.

Modifié par yorkj86, 26 novembre 2010 - 04:59 .


#12615
Xilizhra

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I think she was talking exclusively about Morinth in that context, considering her earlier line about "sleep[ing] well at night, which is more than I can say for most."

#12616
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Xilizhra wrote...

I think she was talking exclusively about Morinth in that context, considering her earlier line about "sleep[ing] well at night, which is more than I can say for most."


One instance of feeling guilt still means she's capable of feeling guilt, and that she feels guilty.

#12617
ranamary

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For the investors and fans watch Samara come to life! www.facebook.com/album.php

#12618
David Hingtgen

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I just came here to post that, but saw Rana herself already had!

Modifié par David Hingtgen, 27 novembre 2010 - 07:03 .


#12619
Guest_yorkj86_*

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I just finished watching "Minority Report". I wonder what Samara would think of that movie.

#12620
Captain Iglo

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yorkj86 wrote...

I just finished watching "Minority Report". I wonder what Samara would think of that movie.


Thats an interesting question...some time ago I saw it...wasnt it about the police able to see if someone is about to kill someone else. And with the moral question to inprison the potential murderers for a crime they actually havent done?

hmmm...I tend to say samara would approve of such a chance to prevent murder or the happening of unjust actions.

#12621
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Captain Iglo wrote...

yorkj86 wrote...

I just finished watching "Minority Report". I wonder what Samara would think of that movie.


Thats an interesting question...some time ago I saw it...wasnt it about the police able to see if someone is about to kill someone else. And with the moral question to inprison the potential murderers for a crime they actually havent done?

hmmm...I tend to say samara would approve of such a chance to prevent murder or the happening of unjust actions.


Yeah, whether or not a person can be guilty of a crime they haven't yet committed.  Then there're the issues of free will and determinism.  Then, the nature of crime.  I think Samara would like Minority Report.

#12622
Captain Iglo

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Even tho Liara is my favorite Li and Character...Samara is my number 1 on "Person my Shep love to talk with" Mass Effect list. Its just so relaxing to talk to her....always so civil...and the whole vibe in the room is so calm and beautiful.
It was always the first thing I did after each mission...talking with samara.

Modifié par Captain Iglo, 27 novembre 2010 - 08:26 .


#12623
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Captain Iglo wrote...

Even tho Liara is my favorite Li and Character...Samara is my number 1 on "Person my Shep love to talk with" Mass Effect list. Its just so relaxing to talk to her....always so civil...and the whole vibe in the room is so calm and beautiful.
It was always the first thing I did after each mission...talking with samara.


Yes, Maggie Baird did a superb job with her voice-acting.  Go out on missions and shoot things, then come back and talk to Samara afterward.   It's very calming.  I edit my save-files to have Samara after Freedom's Progress.  She's too great a character to leave until the second "Act".

#12624
Flamewielder

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Xilizhra wrote...
I have, however, been thinking that the Code feels kind of like an example of moral cowardice, of ensuring that she never has to think for herself in moral situations again. Is there any reason she couldn't have just tried to track down Morinth as herself?

What you are describing is the flaw of all deontological ethics system (in by extension, all legal systems known to mankind): to believe an action is "just" simply because it is legal and follows the letter of the law is fallacy. Is a person "just" BECAUSE she obeys the law (deontological ethics)? Or does a person obey the law BECAUSE she is "just" (virtue ethics)?

We're never given a list of the 5000 sutras, but it's a sure bet most western criminal legislation contains far more than 5000 articles... which implies that 5000 sutras gives Justicars enough of a primer into what asari consider to be their core moral values. Armed with these 5000 sutras, they are expected to get out there and protect the innocent and punish the "unjust".

To me, this implies Justicars are cutting to the chase in their judgements, which are likely limited in scope to immediate consequences. Wether or not Nihlus killed an innocent to protect hundreds more is irrelevant: the Code deals with immediate consequences, long-term views are not considered relevant. Their judgement, while "just", is short-sighted.

This is rather surprising, considering how Matriarchs are respected for their extremely long-term planning and views. One may wonder if the Justicar's "short-sighted" vision of morality isn't a kind of counterpoint to "long-term" view: a dramatic reminder that the long-term view has short-term impacts that are easily brushed aside "for the greater good".

Consider for example Sir Winston Churchill's decision NOT to evacuate certain english cities know to have been targeted for bombardment by the Luftwaffe, in order to protect british intelligence efforts and let the Germans believe their codes were yet unbroken. His staff ordered the deployment of extra fire brigades but the general public was never warned. A difficult decision, one with a price measured in coffins. It is easy to comfort oneself with assessments that such decisions "shortened the war by two years", the danger being that such assessments and outright delusions are often difficult to tell apart. At best, they will allways be "educated opinions", while dead bodies and maimed individuals are quite real: they are FACT, not opinion.

By protecting the innocent, then punishing the guilty according to their near-sighted criteria, Justicars remind the asari society that any decision they make has both long-term AND short term consequences.

Is Samara morally weak for choosing to become a Justicar and "let the Code do her moral thinking"? I think she probably felt she wouldn't have the heart to kill Morinth (her own flesh and blood) without it... Was she a bad person before becoming a Justicar? Probably no worse than Liara, I guess... There was some moral fiber in there; otherwise she wouldn't have ended up fighting and killing her former partners over the fate of a few dozen slaves.

Is her character morally ambiguous? I'd say she is, insofar as true justice shouldn't be blind; it should know what's in the scales before tossing one side and keeping the other. Near-sighted justice may not be the wisest course in the long term; killing a Spectre on a possible war-averting mission for the death of a single individual may doom millions later on... but Justicars dramatically remind the asari that a murder to "save millions" is still murder.

#12625
Ashira Shepard

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*sneaks in*



If anyone's interested; The Reaper Wars Chapter Two: Downtime



*sneaks out*