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[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

I hope that she can reclaim her old life. If not, I'll always wonder if I could have given Morinth a new one.

I doubt Morinth will ever be able to change, she certainly doesn't want to to if you recruit her. As for Samara. I don't think she will ever go back to her old life again.

[Flamewielder]

Xilizhra wrote...
I hope that she can reclaim her old life. If not, I'll always wonder if I could have given Morinth a new one.

Well-written characters, like real-life humans, never go back to their "old life"; simply because it is gone. Life-changing events are one way streets.

If you hope Samara will "return to civilian life", nothing in the canon seems to explicitely prevent it. But looking at her attitude and comments, I get the feeling that she will die a Justicar:

1) We know Justicars follow a Code aiming at a) "Punishing the Unjust" and "Protecting the Innocent".

2) We know that Samara acts as if takes precedence over a), from the Nihlus incident. It is unclear if this precedence is part and parcel of the Code or if Samara chose herself.

3) We know Samara felt it important to deal with Morinth before going on the suicide mission.

4) We know Samara understands that Justicars tend to die violently and ackowledges this as her own likely fate.

5) We know Morinth's death, while bringing her closure, also brought her untold sadness and regret.

I believe Samara feels Morinth's actions are her responsibility, in spite of the fact that Morinth is obviously an adult (mental illness notwithstanding). Blame it on an overly emotional sense of maternal responsibility if you will. I believe Samara loved her daughter, otherwise she would not have cared so much about Morinth's actions. It would have been easy to write her off as "hopeless" and let the authorities handle it. Lots of parents give up on their addicted kids, "disowning" them and dumping them into society's lap...

When I look at it, Samara loved her three daughters profoundly. Their condition is incurable and 2 of them accepted seclusion while one decided to run. The one that ran is irredeemably addicted to killing her mates and she's likely mating fairly regularly (Nef was killed mere days after Morinth's arrival on Omega). Only death will stop her from doing so.

Had Samara given up on her addicted daughter, she couldn't have cared much about who would kill her. Perhaps she wouldn't have cared if she lived on. But for some reason of her own, she made it a point to stop Morinth herself, something she was quite able to do given her past mercenary training and remarkable biotic powers.

I think the only reason for her to join the Justicar Order was that her love of Morinth might have kept her from "pulling the trigger" when the time finally came. The Code gave her the resolve she needed to "pull the trigger"...

With Morinth now dead, her remaining daughters and life mate lost to her, she cuts a sad figure. She denies herself an opportunity at a new beginning with Shepard, in spite of the emotions Shepard stirred in her. That tells me that Samara was perhaps expecting to meet her end on the Collector Base and that prospect was peacefully accepted, if not actually welcomed...

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

[Auzden]

i hope Samara has a change of heart for Shepard in ME3.... she said it herself She said see could find more happiness with Shepard

[Ashira Shepard]

I wish Pariah was real D: but alas...



Also, Auzden - I greatly approve of your signature.

[Xilizhra]

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

Well, with this, I'll definitely want two playthroughs, one with Samara and one with Morinth, to see what happens... but if the optimistic possibility happens, how could I choose between Liara and Samara?

[Auzden]

why thank you i love azula so much....... anyway im really interested how Samara will make a return in ME3 i am hoping for romance

[Pwnisher]

I did a playthrough with my ugly shepard and when I met up with Samara for the first time, she said he was so ugly that it was against the code to let him live.

[DirtyVagrant]

Do you think they'll ever release a Samara litho?

[SlottsMachine]

I had a crazy idea that I'd like to share, it involves asari in general more than Samara specifically, but I am a huge fan of Samara, so this isn't some weird trolling attempt. After completing Samara's loyalty mission, you can ask her about Morinth's claim that she is the genetic destiny of the asari, to which Samara replies, "that doesn't seem very viable on account of Ardat-Yakshi's being sterile." This is where my crazy idea comes in, in a universe where all major conflicts can be traced to Reaper meddling, even the Krogan Rebellion was fallout from the Rachni Wars. What if the AY gene is in fact the result of Reaper meddling, and it was suppose to remain completely dormant until needed, but for some reason it didn't stay dormant in the few AY's currently known to exist. I just had this idea of there being some kind of AY pandemic after the Reapers activate the proverbial switch. Every other species seems to find the asari sexually disirable, so there would be no shortage of potential victims, the asari would go from being the favourite to being shunned and ostracized, as far as I can't tell there is no way to differentiate between normal asari and AY's. The fear mongers would have a field day with this, people would already be on edge, with all the news reports about suspicious deaths and such, it would be a melting pot of fear and revulsion which could explode at any moment. The Reapers can do there reaping while we destroy ourselves.

[BlackMetal]

I was playing Samara's recruitment mission and during the cutscene where Samara pwns the mercs Foxy Lady by Jimi Hendrix came up on my ipod.



That cutscene was made 9000x more epic.

[Ashira Shepard]

*walks in*







*whistles and walks out*

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

Well, with this, I'll definitely want two playthroughs, one with Samara and one with Morinth, to see what happens... but if the optimistic possibility happens, how could I choose between Liara and Samara?

The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder, vs. the conditioned sociopath who could reform?

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

Well, with this, I'll definitely want two playthroughs, one with Samara and one with Morinth, to see what happens... but if the optimistic possibility happens, how could I choose between Liara and Samara?

The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder, vs. the conditioned sociopath who could reform?

Good to see that Christmas even got to you Dean.

[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

Well, with this, I'll definitely want two playthroughs, one with Samara and one with Morinth, to see what happens... but if the optimistic possibility happens, how could I choose between Liara and Samara?

The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder, vs. the conditioned sociopath who could reform?

I'll assume that you don't mean Objectivist, since that doesn't make any sense (why would Objectivists enforce asceticism?). But I said Liara and Samara, not Samara and Morinth; I'm not including Morinth as an LI possibility since the odds seem low that we'll ever be able to sleep with her without dying.
Regardless, Samara wouldn't be committing culturally sanctioned murder anymore if I could reform her, and that's the thing that'd make me wonder the most.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm on break. PM me in two hours if you want fake cheer.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

While I don't see post-Collector Base Samara as a suicidal person, I certainly see her as resolutely embracing the Justicar path (and its likely violent end) as she no longer has anything to hold on to life for. That being said, it's not impossible that life (and possibly Shepard) might change her perspective; that's something I would expect to take time, though.

Well, with this, I'll definitely want two playthroughs, one with Samara and one with Morinth, to see what happens... but if the optimistic possibility happens, how could I choose between Liara and Samara?

The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder, vs. the conditioned sociopath who could reform?

I'll assume that you don't mean Objectivist, since that doesn't make any sense (why would Objectivists enforce asceticism?).

Why wouldn't it?

Objectivist morality is based around a belief of inherent good/bad acts. It's the antithesis of subjective morality. The Justicars and their Code are highly objective, and renowned for an overall lack of subjective-qualifiers.

But I said Liara and Samara, not Samara and Morinth; I'm not including Morinth as an LI possibility since the odds seem low that we'll ever be able to sleep with her without dying.

My apologies. I didn't read the second names.

Go with Liara. Definitely Liara.

Regardless, Samara wouldn't be committing culturally sanctioned murder anymore if I could reform her, and that's the thing that'd make me wonder the most.

Whether you reformed her or not after her loyalty mission, that's still the cornerstone of why she joined the Justicars. To kill Morinth. Unless your Reforming her is a retroactive 'no, you won't kill Morinth' persuasion, it's already come and gone.

[Xilizhra]

Objectivist morality is based around a belief of inherent good/bad acts. It's the antithesis of subjective morality. The Justicars and their Code are highly objective, and renowned for an overall lack of subjective-qualifiers.

It's also mostly about economics, and I can't see the justicars being terribly concerned with the dangers of altruism.

Go with Liara. Definitely Liara.

Well, she does have LotSB...

Whether you reformed her or not after her loyalty mission, that's still the cornerstone of why she joined the Justicars. To kill Morinth. Unless your Reforming her is a retroactive 'no, you won't kill Morinth' persuasion, it's already come and gone.

Yes, but if I go the other way, Morinth kills Samara. Regardless of what I do, murder will happen unless I screw up Samara's loyalty mission, which has the potential to screw up the Collector base assignment and will allow Morinth to continue killing, plus leading to Samara likely leaving me and continuing her own career of judicially sanctioned murder. Depending on how redeemable Morinth is, having her die now might be the best chance of leaving neither asari in a state of continued murder.

[SetsunaF]

AshiraShepard wrote...

*walks in*



*whistles and walks out*

Why am I thinking "Naruto Effect"?

[ADLegend21]

AshiraShepard wrote...

*walks in*



*whistles and walks out*

hahaha Love it!

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Objectivist morality is based around a belief of inherent good/bad acts. It's the antithesis of subjective morality. The Justicars and their Code are highly objective, and renowned for an overall lack of subjective-qualifiers.

It's also mostly about economics, and I can't see the justicars being terribly concerned with the dangers of altruism.

Objective as the opposite of subjective, not as in the Randian philosophy.

Aka moral universalism, or moral objectivism, or a dozen other names.

Whether you reformed her or not after her loyalty mission, that's still the cornerstone of why she joined the Justicars. To kill Morinth. Unless your Reforming her is a retroactive 'no, you won't kill Morinth' persuasion, it's already come and gone.

Yes, but if I go the other way, Morinth kills Samara. Regardless of what I do, murder will happen unless I screw up Samara's loyalty mission, which has the potential to screw up the Collector base assignment and will allow Morinth to continue killing, plus leading to Samara likely leaving me and continuing her own career of judicially sanctioned murder. Depending on how redeemable Morinth is, having her die now might be the best chance of leaving neither asari in a state of continued murder.

Indeed. But you can't reform Samara for why she joined and stuck with the Justicars after she's killed her daughter. That's already in the past. Morinth's redemption is a forward-looking point, irrelevant to Samara's fate.

Balance the issues as you wish, but they won't change. If you consider the Collector Base the all-important thing to prepare for... well, the needs of the many over the few.

[Ashira Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder

Considering she deals with people who have done sh*t so bad the normal authorities cannot deal with them I wouldn't really consider it murder. Killing? Yes of course. Murder? I only connect that word to people who didn't have it coming.

[Dean_the_Young]

AshiraShepard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The woman who joined an objectivist militia to commit culturally sanctioned murder

Considering she deals with people who have done sh*t so bad the normal authorities cannot deal with them I wouldn't really consider it murder. Killing? Yes of course. Murder? I only connect that word to people who didn't have it coming.

And she deals with people that normal authorities could deal with. She's not some special swat team that only takes the worst of the worst.

That you connote murder as corequisite with 'they didn't have it coming' is a troubling sign. It makes murder merely subjective to whether the person murdered was sympathetic enough or not. You start dehumanizing people like that, and 'thou shall not suffer a -identifier here- to live' lies just a little further down on that road.

[Ashira Shepard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And she deals with people that normal authorities could deal with. She's not some special swat team that only takes the worst of the worst.

That you connote murder as corequisite with 'they didn't have it coming' is a troubling sign. It makes murder merely subjective to whether the person murdered was sympathetic enough or not. You start dehumanizing people like that, and 'thou shall not suffer a -identifier here- to live' lies just a little further down on that road.

Contrary to what you're trying to say I'm not a developing sociopath. I like nothing more than helping people and cuddling kittens and bunnies. But I don't think its murder if someone kills a serial rapist/murderer, pervert or some other person who goes out of their way to royally f*ck up someone's life- or their mind as is the result in most cases - for the rest of their days.

I don't see it as a "troubling sign" to think its okay to kill monsters.

Morinth is a monster, yes, but I can see things from her side. That doesn't stop me from killing her every playthrough, but it does make me see it as a mercy kill rather than straight up "murder" as you would call it.

I find it troubling that you seem to be trying quite hard to label it as something bad to get rid of these people. Yes, of course, because everyone wants rapists, murderers and perverts running around.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 26 décembre 2010 - 02:16 .