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[Xilizhra]

Indeed. But you can't reform Samara for why she joined and stuck with the Justicars after she's killed her daughter. That's already in the past. Morinth's redemption is a forward-looking point, irrelevant to Samara's fate.

Obviously. But I can't reform Morinth against killing Nef either; for better or for worse, one of them's dead and I want to see the other one redeemed. I'm inclined to think that I'll have it easier with Samara, since Morinth has that whole sociopathy issue going (It's not a biological imperative, because her sisters don't seem to be sociopaths, but it's the sort of thing that's harder to cure).

By definition, yes, she is. "If a Justicar is involved, peaceful negotations are long past." There are asari cops, and then there are the Justicars. The Justicars are a brute-force solution to crime that has defied resolution every other way. Thus, their extensive training, power and resources.

True, but that's because of their power and paladin-ness; there's nothing that'd keep them from being able to simply capture as opposed to kill except for their code.

Contrary to what you're trying to say I'm not a developing sociopath. I like nothing more than helping people and cuddling kittens and bunnies. But I don't think its murder if someone kills a serial rapist/murderer, pervert or some other person who goes out of their way to royally f*ck up someone's life- or their mind as is the result in most cases - for the rest of their days.

Wait, what? You do know that you're not allowed to just kill them, right? Thus making it legally murder? Due process and everything? You also totally neglect the possibility of rehabilitation. Dexter, while cool, isn't supposed to be an unmitigated hero.

Morinth is a monster, yes, but I can see things from her side. That doesn't stop me from killing her every playthrough, but it does make me see it as a mercy kill rather than straight up "murder" as you would call it.

This would make it easier if the dialogue was a bit better. I'd like what I say when I decide to kill either one of them to be apologetic either way.

I find it troubling that you seem to be trying quite hard to label it as something bad to get rid of these people. Yes, of course, because everyone wants rapists, murderers and perverts running around.

And I find it quite troubling, aside from the larger issue, that you added "perverts" to that list as something presumably separate from "rapists." What... exactly does that mean?

[adriano_c]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I don't see it as a "troubling sign" to think its okay to kill monsters.

You realize what a slippery slope that line of thinking rests upon, right?

[Ashira Shepard]

Wait, what? You do know that you're not allowed to just kill them,
right? Thus making it legally murder? Due process and everything? You
also totally neglect the possibility of rehabilitation. Dexter, while
cool, isn't supposed to be an unmitigated hero.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. This is in the context of being Shepard (a spectre) or Samara (Justicar) who are both allowed to kill and get away with it more or less.

I know only fleetingly about the show you mentioned; my mother watches it. And while, yes, rehabilitation is possible in some cases, put this in perspective.

Would you want the pedophile who messed up your children (or you) get the chance at rehabilitation or would you want him/her dead or slaughtered where they stand?

Would you want the rapist who violated your friend or family member get the chance at rehabilitation and a normal life when their victim will never be the same again?

You can see where I'm going with this on the last one. I would want the person dead - if not tortured - for hurting those I care about in such an extreme and irrevocable way.

And I find it quite troubling, aside from the larger issue, that you
added "perverts" to that list as something presumably separate from
"rapists." What... exactly does that mean?

Perverts = Pedophiles.

[Ashira Shepard]

adriano_c wrote...

You realize what a slippery slope that line of thinking rests upon, right?

FFS, I know there are shades of grey. I know there are times when its not right to just kill someone.

I am talking about killing people who are utterly and completely irredeemable, who will only go on to hurt people again, and again and a-f*cking-gain. I am talking about killing Complete Monsters

I am not talking about killing someone like Thane just because he went on a roaring rampage of revenge and slowly tortured and killed those who murdered his wife just to hurt him.

[Xilizhra]

Would you want the pedophile who messed up your children (or you) get the chance at rehabilitation or would you want him/her dead or slaughtered where they stand?



Would you want the rapist who violated your friend or family member get the chance at rehabilitation and a normal life when their victim will never be the same again?

A: if they were genuinely rehabilitated, they'd be stricken with guilt.

B: This is why they don't let the victims determine the punishment for criminals; emotion gets in the way of objectivity and fairness.

Perverts = Pedophiles.

So, rapists. Assuming you mean active molesters.

[Collider]

1. I believe that choosing Morinth over Samara is silly.

2. Morinth is very much a complete monster - and it seemed that Bioware was clearly going for this. They could have easily made her more sympathetic.

3. Morinth is unrepentant and greatly enjoys killing others. Samara was right to put her down.

4. I do have certain reservations towards the Justicar code, though. But it serves it's purpose of being "alien."

[Xilizhra]

FFS, I know there are shades of grey. I know there are times when its not right to just kill someone.

In my own view, those are "every time unless they're trying to kill you or someone else, right then."

I am not talking about killing someone like Thane just because he went on a roaring rampage of revenge and slowly tortured and killed those who murdered his wife just to hurt him.

It's worth noting that Samara would kill Thane and others like him. Witness her "devoted father" comment.

3. Morinth is unrepentant and greatly enjoys killing others. Samara was right to put her down.

We don't know if she's iredeemable until we try it.

[adriano_c]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I am talking about killing people who are utterly and completely irredeemable, who will only go on to hurt people again, and again and a-f*cking-gain.

Who gets to make the call on whether someone can be "redeemed" or not? Judges and juries? The PTA?

You're a hop, skip, and a jump away from some very murky territory, laf...

[Ashira Shepard]

A: if they were genuinely rehabilitated, they'd be stricken with guilt.
B:
This is why they don't let the victims determine the punishment for
criminals; emotion gets in the way of objectivity and fairness.

How is it in any way fair that they're let off the hook more or less if they are indeed rehabilitated and their victim is still left curled up and screaming inside with nightmares every night? They're still left for the rest of their life, mentally ****ed up because of what happened. While they're "stricken with guilt" - that does not level out with what their victim feels.

That's not fair. That's no where near fair. That's letting other bastards know that the worst they'll get is a slap on the wrist if they manage to twist people's views into thinking they "need help."

No one is afraid of doing what they do because it isn't harsh enough.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 26 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Collider]

We don't know if she's iredeemable until we try it.

I've never saved Morinth, but I doubt the game even gives you the chance to attempt it. In any case, you would have to kill Samara to get Morinth in the first place. Is it worth having Samara killed just to find any possible vestige of repentance within Morinth?



Right before the Samara/Morinth decision, Morinth is about to try to kill you. It is a bit of a leap to fathom her going from just another day killing an innocent person to someone repentant.

[Xilizhra]

How is it in any way fair that they're let off the hook more or less if they are indeed rehabilitated and their victim is still left curled up and screaming inside with nightmares every night? They're still left for the rest of their life, mentally ****ed up because of what happened. While they're "stricken with guilt" - that does not level out with what their victim feels.

And how does this lead to any gain? How does hurting them more help anyone else? At most it'd satisfy a certain lust for vengeance, but that's rarely healthy and can eat one's soul if left long enough. Why not stop the cycle of pain, now, as much as we can and not hurt anyone who might become a good person any further?

That's not fair. That's no where near fair. That's letting other bastards know that the worst they'll get is a slap on the wrist if they manage to twist people's views into thinking they "need help."

Well, clearly they do; entirely mentally healthy people wouldn't do something like this. Kill if you must, heal if you can; as a Paragon, that's the best I can say.

[Xilizhra]

I've never saved Morinth, but I doubt the game even gives you the chance to attempt it. In any case, you would have to kill Samara to get Morinth in the first place. Is it worth having Samara killed just to find any possible vestige of repentance within Morinth?

Arguably. Samara's probably killed more people than Morinth, after all; her creed requires her to kill anyone who gets in her way in addition to the bunch of criminals she might have come across and killed.

Right before the Samara/Morinth decision, Morinth is about to try to kill you. It is a bit of a leap to fathom her going from just another day killing an innocent person to someone repentant.

Jack.

[Ashira Shepard]

Clearly I'm biased, so I'll stop arguing this point.

[Collider]

Arguably. Samara's probably killed more people than Morinth, after all; her creed requires her to kill anyone who gets in her way in addition to the bunch of criminals she might have come across and killed.

That's speculative at best. We don't know for certain the death count of either character nor do we know how they compare to each other.

Jack.

Jack was cornered and on a chaotic ship. Fighting everywhere. Guards trying to kill her. She was simply trying to survive. She had no real choice but to try to defend herself.



Morinth freely kills and was about to freely kill Shepard. For her own entertainment.

[Xilizhra]

Then I'd like to invite you to consider another point (aimed at Ashira, but it works for Collider too).

What if Shepard's magical ability to be in the right place at the right time hadn't come into effect on Ilium? What if Samara had to fight her way out of police custody? You'd have quite a few families and friends with pieces ripped out of them that day, and what's more knowing that they would never have the sort of closure you're talking about, because the killer was a justicar and that makes it totally legal. What's more, Samara's probably done this before already, as have many other justicars.

Or the village Samara destroyed because Morinth was in it. Your home has a a new protector, a goddess even, who's given you... well, something, the description was kind of vague, but presumably everyone's happy with it. And then another asari lands, who begins killing everyone, a veritable angel of death. It's Mindoir as committed by one person. Your goddess is gone and everyone adult you'd known for your entire life is dead; effectively, your own life has been destroyed. And again, there will never be recompense.

Ooh,  and as a delicious little bonus, part of the reason the Code exists is so that the justicars never think about this.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 décembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Collider]

As for the village, I was under the impression Morinth sent them to attack Samara, and that Samara defended herself.



The police officers is a better one. Yes, I do agree that it would immoral, very immoral, if Samara did kill those police officers simply because they were in her way. This in particular is my greatest dislike of the Justicar code.



But has she done it before? We don't know for certain and I wouldn't assume that she did.

[Xilizhra]

As for the village, I was under the impression Morinth sent them to attack Samara, and that Samara defended herself.

How does this change the effect on the children? And considering that they were brainwashed, they wouldn't be culpable; of course, the Code apparently says that innocence stops the instant someone tries to get in a justicar's way.

[Collider]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the village, I was under the impression Morinth sent them to attack Samara, and that Samara defended herself.

How does this change the effect on the children? And considering that they were brainwashed, they wouldn't be culpable; of course, the Code apparently says that innocence stops the instant someone tries to get in a justicar's way.

So do you expect Samara NOT to defend herself?

[Xilizhra]

I expect that such a skilled warrior knows how to fight to incapacitate. Unless justicar training beat it out of her.

[Collider]

Xilizhra wrote...

I expect that such a skilled warrior knows how to fight to incapacitate. Unless justicar training beat it out of her.

Good point. But we don't know all of the details of the fight, so I wouldn't automatically say that fighting to incapacitate was a realistic option.
Xil, so what are your choices regarding Samara/Morinth in the game?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Collider wrote...

As for the village, I was under the impression Morinth sent them to attack Samara, and that Samara defended herself.

The police officers is a better one. Yes, I do agree that it would immoral, very immoral, if Samara did kill those police officers simply because they were in her way. This in particular is my greatest dislike of the Justicar code.

But has she done it before? We don't know for certain and I wouldn't assume that she did.

Yeah, Samara said that Morinth willingly threw the villagers at her just to buy her time for her escape.  But I know what you mean, Samara still killed them all when there could have still been hope for them, if Morinth was killed, then the spell they were under may have died with her. Just to play devil's advocate
However, I do believe Morinth is evil, because she has two sisters who are also ardat-yakshi, but they choose to live in isolation. Morinth isn't pure evil though, not as much as the reapers and Harbinger. It is a genetic disorder that has influenced her behaviour.
But the real reason I popped onto this thread was to pose a question.
Samara was a pureblood. If Samara was born an Ardat-Yakshi, would she have turned out like Morinth? Or lived in isolation?
I ask this because Samara remarks that Morinth is a bit like her in some ways. She also says she was the bravest and smartest of her daughters. Maybe Samara does empathise with Morinth, and see her perspective, but she is compelled by the code to kill her. Something I have wondered about for a while anyway

[Xilizhra]

Collider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I expect that such a skilled warrior knows how to fight to incapacitate. Unless justicar training beat it out of her.

Good point. But we don't know all of the details of the fight, so I wouldn't automatically say that fighting to incapacitate was a realistic option.
Xil, so what are your choices regarding Samara/Morinth in the game?

My Renegade, Juno, chooses Morinth because she has issues about families after hers was killed on Mindoir, and hates the thought of Samara hunting and killing her own daughter (for similar reasons, she encourages Miranda to talk to her sister and does the best she can for Kolyat); plus, she finds Samara's rigid adherence to an ideology to the point of no longer making her own moral decisions disgusting. My Paragon, Diana, is badly undecided but ultimately chooses Samara because not betraying a squadmate ends up as the tiebreaker; she greatly hopes that she can get Samara out of being a justicar now that Morinth is dead.

[Collider]

That sounds fascinating, Xil. I'd love to learn more about them, if you'd like. I admit that I haven't fleshed out my Shepards quite as much as that.



@Tasha: Interesting question. Something to mull over. Samara is brave.

[Xilizhra]

Thanks.



It's a bit frustrating. I like Samara a lot, I'd be happy to romance her if I had the chance, but I hate the Code. I don't know if I blame her for a lot of her more killy justicar actions, though, since the Code probably counts as brainwashing (it certainly has a brainwashing effect, it sounds like).

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I haven't come up with a conclusion yet. But I will see on my next playthrough.

I have only ever recruited Morinth once, I like Samara too much. Although like some of you, I don't agree with the code. There can't possibly be a solution to every situation, and there are many shades of grey (something Garrus will have to see as well.)